Does Arthas deserve to be in the Maw?

[Samuraijake]

so what IS enough to be sent to the maw?

[Aucald]

so what IS enough to be sent to the maw?

We have two confirmed criteria as of now: 1.) be a threat to the metacosm as a whole, or 2.) fail to be reformed in Revendreth.

[lvbuckeye]

His soul was corrupted by Frostmourne. Arthas the Paladin was in control of his actions. He did questionable acts but always for the greater good. Arthas the Lich King was not in control of his actions. His very being was tainted by the sword and the moment the sword was shattered we saw Arthas the Paladin for a few moments before his death.

Can Arthas the Paladin and Arthas the corrupted Death Knight be considered two different people? I believe that they are, but the beings above don't seem to think so. Unspeakable atrocities occurred at the hands of the Lich King, but did they happen because of Arthas, or would they have happened no matter what?

I don't believe Arthas belongs in the Maw, but I also accept that it was his body that ultimately caused so much disaster to Azeroth and as Uther has declared, justice is needed.

"What are you doing, my son?"

"Succeeding you."

Arthas was a PoS before he became the Lich King.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Hyeonh]

Noble goals do not absolve atrocities done under said "noble" goals. People suffered and died under his reign as the Lich King on a massive scale, the crimes and actions were his responsibility as he was in control of it all. As for Sylvanis, that's because people are white knighting her. No matter what, she's destined for it unless the writers pull even more Mary Sue moments and excuses out of their arse.

[aceperson]

Arthas technically does not deserve the Maw, because he's been under the influence of the helm of domination. Ner'zhul deserves it, if you deem that the Lich King's actions can't be redeemed.

but even then, ner'zhul decided to not follow the burning legions orders anymore and that caused him to be taken by KJ and tortured and turned into the lich king. even ner'zhul wasn't irredeemable. i think when we look for someone to be completely irredeemable, we're probably looking at post corruption deathwing, lady ashvane, gul'dan, lei shen, etc. characters who commit evil acts and have no sign of any hesitation or remorse.

deathwing wanted to the world to burn just to make it burn. ashvane kept trying to obtain power again and again, though you could make a case that she didn't do anything pure evil and thus belongs in revendreth. gul'dan only cared for power to the point of betraying the burning legion just for the possibility of power. and lei shen enslaved the pandaren, stole the power of a titan watcher, treated people inhumanly, and overall just kept abusing people again and again for his goals.

[Minikin]

It looks promising, but I'm getting tired of this redemption-betrayal thing
I'm an alliance player and I've been playing since TBC, and I loved garrosh as a character
Perhaps arthas deserves redemption because of frostmourne and the helm of domination, but it will need to be well done or it will have the opposite effect

Another similar story was the illidan in the legion, he was not looking for redemption, he just wanted to finish his job, which he had to sacrifice everything for.

I hope, I don't see a sorry Garrosh in shadowlands

Honestly, I think their system is fed as hell if someone like Garrosh gets sent to revendreth and not maldraxxus.

- - - Updated - - -

Heck, not even DW IMHO, he literally went completely mad because of the Old Gods, so at least, he have that excuse, though that doesn't mean that he's not guilty of anything he did.

This is why there is that joke about lawyers end up in hell

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of Gul'dan, I have a theory that AU Gul'Dan's death may have been the engine breaking event. Our Gul'dan perished long ago in the midst of the Second War and would have presumably passed on to the Shadowlands. What happens when an identical soul from an alternate timeline is introduced to the prime continuity's afterlife where the original soul is already present? Blizz really screwed the pooch with the "One Legion, one Twisting Nether to span all timelines" ridiculousness because one now has to wonder if the Shadowlands abide by the same rules.

Wouldn't Gildan be classified as demon though? Given how much fel he ate? So wouldn't he end up in the nether?

[Soon-TM]

Oh Jesus there going to make arthas the new jailer after we kill this won’t aren’t they? I can see it now him saying some nonsense about frostmourn making him evil and that he really wanted to be good but he was still a bad boy so he’s gonna stay in the maw for ever to make up for it.

There must always be... a Jailor

[Minikin]

Oh Jesus there going to make arthas the new jailer after we kill this won’t aren’t they? I can see it now him saying some nonsense about frostmourn making him evil and that he really wanted to be good but he was still a bad boy so he’s gonna stay in the maw for ever to make up for it.

And then next expac we have to travel to the maw for his and sylvanas wedding.

[Soon-TM]

the writers pull even more Mary Sue moments and excuses out of their arse.

That's what I think it's going to happen, I'm afraid. Especially when the lead writer has an inexplicable obsession with Suevanas.

[Minikin]

I believe the Arbiter would've sent him to Revendreth to repent for his sins and then, once "redeemed" by being purged of his sins, to Maldraxxus.

I also believe that Arthas being thrown into the Maw without first being judged is what broke the Shadowlands in the first place. If I go by this, then it's clear that he was judged wrongly by Devos and Uther, meaning he belonged elsewhere in the Shadowlands. In many ways Arthas belongs to a bit of every part of the Shadowlands, save for Ardenweald. His descent into darkness happened because of his selfless goals(Bastion), he drew strenght from the desire to protect his homeland(Maldraxxus) and he committed many sins in an attempt to do so(Revendreth). Blizzard has maximum flexibility with this one, though not more reason to pick one instead of the other.

The timing doesn't work for that because Ysera was the last soul to make it before everything got sent to the maw.

*Unless!

*They do that time thing where it flows differently in the shadowlands as spoken in BlizzCon and make it match that way

[Mirishka]

"But he had a noble goal" - that's such a terrible, terrible excuse. One used by basically every murderous and genocidal fuckhead to have lived ever.

Literally the post I was going to make.

[Hekazi]

I mean if we can accept that Kael'thas belongs in Ravendreth then I dont think Arthas is that much worse

Kael'thas is yet another example of the madness someone gets when he loves his people too much. I find that honorable, better than betray, oppress and steal from the people you were raised with, but outsiders don't like that, they get jealous of such leaders.

[Soon-TM]

People have a really hard time separating villain with purpose behind their motivations from villains who really were just trying to do something reasonable through unreasonable means.

If a villain is well written, you will be able to understand what they are doing and why it makes sense from a certain point of view. That doesn't mean "OMG THEY DID NOTHING WRONG HEART HEART HEART"

The best villains can always be understood but they are still villains.

The problem is that most villains in Warcraft are terribly unidimensional, despite Danuser's eyerolling-worthy statements. Warcraft doesn't have a Joker, a Cersei Lannister, a Thanos - and has never had. Therefore, if someone is well intentioned, or at some point does the right thing, it means that they were right (or wrong, this kind of "reasoning" also works in the opposite direction) all along.

When it comes to Warcraft, the only mildly interesting, somewhat better developed villains are Garrosh and Arthas. And that's where the "X was right/wrong all along hurr durr" line is exposed as the BS it actually is - even if it applies to like 90% of villains and 100% of heroes in Warcraft.

[Maxilian]

This is why there is that joke about lawyers end up in hell

Fair enough :P

- - - Updated - - -

Kael'thas is yet another example of the madness someone gets when he loves his people too much. I find that honorable, better than betray, oppress and steal from the people you were raised with, but outsiders don't like that, they get jealous of such leaders.

but Kaelthas did end up betraying his people when he attacked Silvermoon with a band of demons and took Mu'ru.

[Chromeshellking]

Arthas technically does not deserve the Maw, because he's been under the influence of the helm of domination. Ner'zhul deserves it, if you deem that the Lich King's actions can't be redeemed.

You missed the part where Arthas straight up mentally kills Nerzhul and was no longer in control. Arthas was.

[Eapoe]

Apparently some people think Arthas was the most evil character in the story. Yes, he did plenty of fucked up stuff, but chronicle 3 established a noble goal for his actions.

"A world ruled by the undead would have no more injustice, no more wars, no more mortal flaws. Perhaps most importantly to the Lich King, he believed his Scourge would be far more capable of defending Azeroth against threats that would try to conquer it. He had observed the awakening of C'Thun and the Burning Legion's attempts to launch other attacks on Azeroth. Neither the demons nor the powers of the Void would rest until they controlled the world. A fractured world, constantly beset by skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde, simply would not be prepared for another incursion." - Warcraft Chronicle vol. 3, page 172



If people can justify Slyvanus' betrayal and atrocities by believing/hoping she is doing them for some greater good rather than out of selfish fear for her own judgement in the afterlife, making her worthy of redemption, why can't Arthas also be redeemed as well? His actions in Stratholme weren't for the sake of being evil, he thought it was the only way to stop the spread of undeath. If Slyvanus' mass murder of the Night elves can be "justified" by her end goal to "free" us, shouldn't Arthas' mass murder of the High/Blood elves also be "justified" to combat the Legion and the Void?

- - - Updated - - -

Why is the image I put not working???

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20200827215356

lol, this website is busted.

What you, and others, fail to realize in these arguments for or against someone is that regardless of their goals they are still doing evil, irredeemable things. They both want to wipe out life to preserve people thru death. It’s like saying Hitler wasn’t an evil man because he wanted to make the world a better place thru making the perfect race by wiping out those that are impure.
So while people try to discuss Arthas and Sylvanas reasons as being a greater good cause, the ends do not justify the means. In fact, the means completely outweigh and ruin the end by how truly evil and despicable they are.
So yes, Arthas does belong in The Maw. As for Syl, she definitely belongs in The Maw now; however, when Arthas killed her and she saw herself there is where I have the problem because what we know now shows she should not have been destined for there unless it she was given a false vision or there is some kind of future showing vision, as a just in case you get brought back, shown to people.

[Eazy]

No one deserves to be in the Maw if that means eternal damnation. No criminal could be justly punished with that.

The second Arthas doned the helmet, he expelled Ner'zhul. It's not like he stopped being an evil overlord then....

It's 2020 and people are still thinking that it was Ner'zhul controlling Arthas even though that was proven false hundred of times on this forum... That's sad.

[Jawless Jones]

the whole maw thing is fucking stupid anyway. you're actually telling me there's a universal good and evil in the warcraft universe?
goodness the writers are such a bunch of hacks, it actually hurts me

[korijenkins]

Radical idea: Each expansion should have a different storytelling team working on it. At least then they would feel different.

Right now it feels like we've been getting a giant circlejerk for Sylvanas. For the better part of two expansions we've focused on what she wants. It's literally come at the expense of other characters and better storytelling, as Saurfang, Baine, Jaina, Anduin, Genn, Tyrande, Nathanos, Vol'jin, etc. were all made to look like fools; not to mention the entire Titan focused storyline of Stormheim that took a backseat to Sylvanas' stupid journey for a lantern. Trying to stop the Legion? Focus of all 4 zones? Too bad, we're going to force a random, pointless Alliance vs Horde conflict into a zone that achieves literally nothing and doesn't advance the story.

I have no problem with Sylvanas being a conniving, evil or grey character, but it should NOT come at the expense of everyone else. The insulting part about all of it will be when the writers justify their shitty writing in SL as "all part of her master plan!"

Nah, I would literally have rather seen her go after Bolvar because she wanted his power to make new Val'kyr, get yeeted off, and then have Bolvar attempt to conquer the Shadowlands to become the God of Death that can't be touched by mortals who crave his crown. THAT would have been better than the dogshit we got/are getting.

Arthas didn't deserve the Maw. Sylvanas' useless character absolutely does.

[Kumorii]

Sargeras had a noble goal as well. Having a noble goal doesn't make you good or evil it only serves as a justification ground for whatever evil or good deed you are about to do. It impacts the severity of what you do since intent matters absolutely but it can't absolve you completely in most cases. Having a "noble" cause is almost required to have a great villain.

To me Arthas deserves to be in the maw. Haven't read up on the criteria though on specific rules that makes you go to maw or any other covenant. So maybe he doesn't. So when I say that I mean that he is certainly evil and no noble cause can really redeem him.