[Spoilers] Bastion and how Sylvanas was tricked.

[Aucald]

Well the whole securing the future of the Forsaken and Never stop fighting for Lordaeron doesn't seem to apply anymore.

That's less a contradiction and more an evolution of her character within the narrative. She once did wish to secure the future of the Forsaken (for her own ends mostly), but now that she's in good with a proverbial god who can control life and death she no longer needs the Forsaken, and no longer needs to pretend she cares about their plight depending on how charitable you want to be toward Sylvanas' character. It doesn't apply anymore, but it's not a contradiction either.

[bagina]

People still don't know the machine of death broke in Legion?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHFY...ature=emb_logo

Minute 7.00.

Blizzard really needs to put this stuff in the game, because very clearly people here don't listen to their very short interviews.

Specifically, it was in the interview with John Hight concerning Shadowlands' story: the interview can be listened to here at the timestamp where the timeline of Death breaking down is discussed. The machinery of Death broke during Legion.

It's kind of insane how the audience still needs to actively seek out information about important events in some obscure interviews or other sources to fully understand WoW's story. Like it's an actual commitment to follow WoW's plot lol.

[Aucald]

It's kind of insane how the audience still needs to actively seek out information about important events in some obscure interviews or other sources to fully understand WoW's story. Like it's an actual commitment to follow WoW's plot lol.

Well, the game's still in Beta and in development currently - so a degree of research is an unfortunate necessity. This *is* spelled out pretty plainly in-game though, as I related above with the dialogue from the quest in the Beta itself, so once Shadowlands is live it should be common knowledge (for those who actually care about the story in the first place).

[Minikin]

I'm actually starting to think that Sylvanas was tricked, albeit not quite the way the OP relates (I think). I think by the time Sylvanas died at Icecrown the Jailer was sufficiently powerful enough to snag her soul and bring her to Maw directly, bypassing her second judgement by the Arbiter. There he was able to torture her with all the things she truly feared and dreaded. Then he allows the Nine Val'kyr to bring her back out of the Maw and tempt her with possible escape, thereby instilling and inculcating the fear that would eventually drive her directly into his full service later on as a means to avoid an actually false fate she believes is otherwise unavoidable.

This doesn't by any means redeem Sylvanas for her later actions, as she still consciously made the choices to act on that fear, but does go to show that the Jailer actually manipulated her into doing exactly what was needed to ultimately topple the system keeping him imprisoned. In this sense, and for all her arrogance and bluster, Sylvanas is actually the pawn of an even greater force - and when and if she realizes that she too has been gulled, I can only wonder what her reaction will be.

I am on a similar page.

Mind you.

If she wasn't worthy of the maw before, she defo is now lol. So I guess a self fulfilling prophecy?

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Well, the game's still in Beta and in development currently - so a degree of research is an unfortunate necessity. This *is* spelled out pretty plainly in-game though, as I related above with the dialogue from the quest in the Beta itself, so once Shadowlands is live it should be common knowledge (for those who actually care about the story in the first place).

To some extent. But you have to admit @bagina has a point. Take wrathgate for example. Afrasiabi says sylvanas called it but Danuser does not confirm. And that's all in the interviews after calling chronicles a titan pov.

[Aucald]

To some extent. But you have to admit bagina has a point. Take wrathgate for example. Afrasiabi says sylvanas called it but Danuser does not confirm. And that's all in the interviews after calling chronicles a titan pov.

I agree to a point - I've said many times now that the external novels, short stories, and other media need some kind of recap available within the game. Even if it was just an in-game book or summation like the kind you could find all over in Classic or the earlier expansions. Cutscene-style highlights would be even better, especially for the big linking novels like The Shattering, or Before the Storm, the ones that basically bridge expansion to expansion.

The whole Chronicle snafu didn't really irk me as much as it did others. I mean I didn't like the downgrading of Chronicle from pure reference to PoV reference, as that was kind of fraudulent considering how they originally sold the series, but from a lore/canon standpoint it brings Chronicle more or less in-line with everything else in WoW as concerns external media.

[Minikin]

I agree to a point - I've said many times now that the external novels, short stories, and other media need some kind of recap available within the game. Even if it was just an in-game book or summation like the kind you could find all over in Classic or the earlier expansions. Cutscene-style highlights would be even better, especially for the big linking novels like The Shattering, or Before the Storm, the ones that basically bridge expansion to expansion.

The whole Chronicle snafu didn't really irk me as much as it did others. I mean I didn't like the downgrading of Chronicle from pure reference to PoV reference, as that was kind of fraudulent considering how they originally sold the series, but from a lore/canon standpoint it brings Chronicle more or less in-line with everything else in WoW as concerns external media.

True. I'm going by the standard that before, the game (up until cata) was fairly young. We didn't really start getting zone cinematics and stuff until cata (for example when you get to vashjir the camera pans to the kraken and such). So they probably didn't have resources to account for a compilation of sorts.

As for the titan pov thing. It's not that I mind them saying that. I'm of the opinion that chronicles should never have been titled as a chronicle in the first place because it pigeon holes the lore and they have to either close the game (can't cuz business) or retcon (causing issue).

I do however think that now they should work to merge many of these things in game (I want to say they have resources now but then there is that pay gap issue in Blizzard...). But not all of it. For example. In the afterlives thread many people constantly bring up how Arthas was under control by nerzhul and thus doesn't deserve the maw. However this was resolved in the book rise of the Lich King where Arthas took complete control. Now some can argue that tid bit should be in game but I disagree. If someone cared about the lore they would go and read the books too not just tunnel vision into the game.

[Mehrunes]

To some extent. But you have to admit @bagina has a point. Take wrathgate for example. Afrasiabi says sylvanas called it but Danuser does not confirm. And that's all in the interviews after calling chronicles a titan pov.

Afrasiabi's interview was roughly one year before the Blizzcon where they shat the bed about the Chronicles. The follow-up Danuser interview was shortly afterwards, IIRC.

I do however think that now they should work to merge many of these things in game (I want to say they have resources now but then there is that pay gap issue in Blizzard...). But not all of it. For example. In the afterlives thread many people constantly bring up how Arthas was under control by nerzhul and thus doesn't deserve the maw. However this was resolved in the book rise of the Lich King where Arthas took complete control. Now some can argue that tid bit should be in game but I disagree. If someone cared about the lore they would go and read the books too not just tunnel vision into the game.

He was controlled by Ner'zhul up to donning the helm though.

[Arrashi]

The whole Chronicle snafu didn't really irk me as much as it did others. I mean I didn't like the downgrading of Chronicle from pure reference to PoV reference, as that was kind of fraudulent considering how they originally sold the series, but from a lore/canon standpoint it brings Chronicle more or less in-line with everything else in WoW as concerns external media.

Which is funny because the very point of chronicle was to be above everything else.

[valky94]

With the new short, we even see that Arthas was dumped into the Maw without being judged, implying he might not have been destined for the Maw but possibly redemption.

doubt it that he was destined for redemption, he would probably end in revendreth with kael (and possibly garrosh) to accept punishemnt for his crimes

[Omians]

id like to know how the Arbiter judges people when their mind was corrupted by an outside source. like Arthas after he got turned into a Deathknight changed how he acted.

Nazgrim likes choking things a lot more

and the people that had their minds driven Crazy by the Old gods

" oh we are sending you to revendreth because you didn't make yourself un insane on your own"

[Minikin]

Afrasiabi's interview was roughly one year before the Blizzcon where they shat the bed about the Chronicles. The follow-up Danuser interview was shortly afterwards, IIRC.

Ah my bad for some reason I had the image Danuser was asked afterwards

He was controlled by Ner'zhul up to donning the helm though.

Oh I know. I mean people peg stratholme as nerzhul motivated when he didn't even have the blade then. And all his motivations for world unity by undeath was all him not nerzhul. Nerzhul basically had him from the time he put his hands on the sword to the moment he became an icicle.

One could argue that the part at lordearon convicts him for the maw and then wotlk convicts him for revendreth based on Matthias Lehner. But that would mean ignoring revendreth. Don't want to detail the thread but I'd say at least to me, the only thing that would save him from the maw for me is IF he got sent to revendreth and failed. But that's pending on our limited knowledge so far of shadowlands. Do some souls get sent there directly but the arbiter? Or is the normal cause to send it to revendreth as a FINAL last chance? Who knows.

[Aucald]

Which is funny because the very point of chronicle was to be above everything else.

Originally, yes; hence the reference to kind of defrauding people who bought it thinking that was going to remain the case, such as myself. But I also understand why they downgraded it, so to speak. You already had people effectively saying future expansions and what have you couldn't be done because "that's not in the Chronicle" and so forth - and while much of this was based on people's failure to understand the Chronicle series to begin with, it was swiftly getting to a point where it could straight-jacket any future development. Shadowlands itself has been decried many times as not possible because Chronicle Vol. 1 briefly described the Shadowlands and nothing of the next expansion was depicted, etc. etc.

[Arrashi]

Originally, yes; hence the reference to kind of defrauding people who bought it thinking that was going to remain the case, such as myself. But I also understand why they downgraded it, so to speak. You already had people effectively saying future expansions and what have you couldn't be done because "that's not in the Chronicle" and so forth - and while much of this was based on people's failure to understand the Chronicle series to begin with, it was swiftly getting to a point where it could straight-jacket any future development. Shadowlands itself has been decried many times as not possible because Chronicle Vol. 1 briefly described the Shadowlands and nothing of the next expansion was depicted, etc. etc.

That kinda reminds me of old russian joke - there was a man working in factory making parts for samovars. He wanted one so he decided to steal set of parts and build it back home. Then he stole another one. And another, and another. And no matter how hard he tried he would end up with kalashnikov.
Blizzard is kinda same, no matter how hard they try to write respectable lore that will mean something they always end up with retcon fodder.

[Aucald]

That kinda reminds me of old russian joke - there was a man working in factory making parts for samovars. He wanted one so he decided to steal set of parts and build it back home. Then he stole another one. And another, and another. And no matter how hard he tried he would end up with kalashnikov.
Blizzard is kinda same, no matter how hard they try to write respectable lore that will mean something they always end up with retcon fodder.

It is strange how humor varies from region to region, country to country - I was trying to figure out how someone would produce guns from parts that would otherwise constitute a high-end tea urn. Though what I was saying above is less about retcons and more about the license to expand and iterate, and the specter of being otherwise blocked by a reference volume you intended to use just to add continuity to your existing story but instead became an inescapable prison for the narrative's future. Chronicle was well on its way to being used as a bludgeon as opposed to a guidebook, and that wasn't a good thing for WoW's future. So while downgrading its nature definitely doesn't feel great at first blush, with a bit of critical thought one can start to see why it was perhaps necessary.

[Arrashi]

It is strange how humor varies from region to region, country to country - I was trying to figure out how someone would produce guns from parts that would otherwise constitute a high-end tea urn. Though what I was saying above is less about retcons and more about the license to expand and iterate, and the specter of being otherwise blocked by a reference volume you intended to use just to add continuity to your existing story but instead became an inescapable prison for the narrative's future. Chronicle was well on its way to being used as a bludgeon as opposed to a guidebook, and that wasn't a good thing for WoW's future. So while downgrading its nature definitely doesn't feel great at first blush, with a bit of critical thought one can start to see why it was perhaps necessary.

Thats the joke - it never really was samovar factory to begin with, he just didn't realise it. And its fitting alegory, because chronicle was never really meant to be chronicle. Its because of that approach blizzard can't really get their lore straight.

[Powerogue]

I am 100% sure that Sylvanas is not all as bad as they paint her. Somehow, I think thre is more into the story and only we will find out by the end of Shadowlands.

They dedicated an entire Warbringers short to emphasizing that yes, she has always been this evil from the moment she was raised from the dead. Nothing "corrupted" her like Y'sharshsharjar corrupted Garrosh or Ner'zhul corrupted Arthas that could lend even an ounce of sympathy.

At the very most basic of storytelling, especially for a game like this,

step 1) have the villain do villainous things that make the heroes want them dead.
step 2) let the heroes kill the villain and feel good about it.
step 3) repeat with more villains. And sometimes the same villains https://wow.gamepedia.com/Merely_a_setback

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Thats the joke - it never really was samovar factory to begin with, he just didn't realise it. And its fitting alegory, because chronicle was never really meant to be chronicle. Its because of that approach blizzard can't really get their lore straight.

It's something I accepted years ago or I'd be bitching about the lore inconsistencies with the rest of them. WoW writes its lore favoring intense, dramatic storytelling over internal consistency. I'm watching Jojo's Bizarre Adventure now and I sure as hell don't watch it for the consistent and logical writing. I watch it because seriously that dude just shot his own head out of a crossbow.

[Aucald]

Thats the joke - it never really was samovar factory to begin with, he just didn't realise it. And its fitting alegory, because chronicle was never really meant to be chronicle. Its because of that approach blizzard can't really get their lore straight.

Not sure if I'd say the intrinsic flaw in Chronicle is because of what it is on the elemental level, but how it was marketed. There's no real problem with Chronicle in terms of how it is written or what is written - but only in terms of how it's used and would be used going forward. It's still a great reference and I find myself using it again and again to clarify, correct, and expand on a wide range of topics and conversations. Definitely a lot of value in that even now and probably going forward.

[Minikin]

Spoilers and such.

We learn in Bastion that souls don't just go to the Shadowlands, but are retrieved and brought before the Arbiter before being judged and even evil people aren't immediately sent to the Maw.

With the new short, we even see that Arthas was dumped into the Maw without being judged, implying he might not have been destined for the Maw but possibly redemption.

Now remembering that Sylvanas died and immediately went to the Maw, we now know why Arthas was there but not only that, Sylvanas didn't get judged and sent there, she was brought there by the Valkyr and brought back from there by them, Valkyr created by the Scourge which uses the power of the Maw.

Sylvanas fearing this dark fate for her and her people(mostly her) led to her allying with the Jailer and doing some evil stuff. This means that she could have been redeemed and may even still be redeemable now and may lead to her betraying Jailer if she ever realize it, or go the route of Deathwing and realizing you've been tricked but since you've gone this far, there's no going back(feelsbadfordeathwing)

There is also the possibility that this is never addressed because blizzard might not have thought of it and I'm just using logical thinking here(indoctrination theory)

The only issue is, they havent confirmed awarness yet.

For example:
in bastion afterlives they dont show Uther before the arbiter. Its just death one sec and bam next moment you are in Bastion. Now we dont know if:
1. Arbiter judging him is skipped for cinematic reasons
or
2. the soul has no awareness of it until they reach their assigned destination.

And since we also dont know the path of a soul. Does the arbiter deem you totally irredeemable and send you to the maw? Or does the arbiter give you one last chance at revendreth and then if you fail send you to the maw.

Now since sylvanas ended up immediately at the maw. Lets say number 2 from the first part [a soul is not aware until it reaches its assigned destination] is true. Does that mean that she got sent there because the arbiter deemed her irredeemable? She hadnt gone totally crazy evil then. And if Kael can end up in revendreth for literally trying to get Kiljaeden into Azeroth, id say Sylvanas deserves a chance in revendreth too.

So based on that [IF THEY DONT RETCON EDGE OF THE NIGHT] my guess is, that due to Arthas getting dumped into the maw by uther, something allowed the jailor to reach out and drag sylvanas there.

Mind you. trick or not. It doesnt matter at this point. Because no amount of "i was tricked" will make up for Teldrassil and instigating the blood bath in BfA. Not to mention they already confirmed in Blizzcon that she is the Jailors lackey, is evil and has no relations not even to the loyalists who helped her in BfA. [But obviously one needs a disclaimer because with Blizzard who knows what tomorrow holds. Maybe theyll go back on that whole thing].

[Raisei]

or
2. the soul has no awareness of it until they reach their assigned destination.

I think this is very close to the truth. Maybe it is the trauma of dying that keeps the soul in a stupor for some time. Arthas also did not appear "concious" if you can say that of a soul. He did not show any reaction when Uther held him over the Maw.

Either this prevents you from actually being concious during the Arbiter's judgement, or it just happens so fast that a mortal cannot notice it.

[Combatbutler]

They dedicated an entire Warbringers short to emphasizing that yes, she has always been this evil from the moment she was raised from the dead. Nothing "corrupted" her like Y'sharshsharjar corrupted Garrosh or Ner'zhul corrupted Arthas that could lend even an ounce of sympathy.

Simply not true, undeath corrupted her, undead Sylvanas and living Sylvanas are pretty much exact opposites and unlike Arthas or Garrosh she never chose her fate, which is reflected by her original afterlife.