The Last of Us Part II

[Gelannerai]

Well her parents were killed by a dude breaking out the only known cure when she was a teenager. There's a reason she has issues. And she's not all that bad otherwise she wouldn't have gone into the hospital and fought patient zero for some random she just met that cut her down

Agree to disagree. Everyone has issues, some people work past those to be better people and some don’t. The only redeemable element of Abby’s character is her connection with Lev.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Comparing games that are both fantastical and pretty shallow in their story telling to TLOU is pretty stupid, if you ask me. Games like those are vapid fun, and killing humans isn't the same as killing monsters in terms of brutality. Killing humans because they have different beliefs, morals or lust for power and control isn't even remotely the same as killing hordes of monsters.

god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.

[Eapoe]

god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.

Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.

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Agree to disagree. Everyone has issues, some people work past those to be better people and some don’t. The only redeemable element of Abby’s character is her connection with Lev.

Keep in mind Abby doesn’t need redeemed. There’s nothing happening after the fact to redeem her of what she did. The backstory shows that she is seeking revenge for what happened, as well as her friends who are with her. They went and got revenge on the man who stole not only theirs, but the entire worlds, potential future of ridding themselves of a plague.
The background, as well as the present, storytelling aren’t there to redeem her, but to show she is just like Ellie and Joel. They are all people who are surviving, who seek revenge and do things to get it. Hell, if you pay attention to Ellie’s story it comes out Joel and Tommy have done worse things to other people than me hat Abby did. The whole point isn’t to justify or redeem her, but to be narrative to show she’s just another human living in a post apocalyptic world who does things to survive, and revenge, just like the main characters from the 1st game.

[Elim Garak]

god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.

god of war is a poor comparison. it's in the name. we know what we are going to do in the game and we are doing it. total sync.

If TLOU2 was all about Abby, i.e. you start as her and end as her - showing us the story of revenge and her growth from that, killing both Joel and Ellie in the process (well sorta letting Ellie go in the end would've worked as well) - that would've been a better story. No one would've complained much about Abby's appearance and substance. Heck, there could've been a minigame at the gym - go pump some iron, Abby, press square to pump, instead of dog petting.

[Gelannerai]

Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.

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Keep in mind Abby doesn’t need redeemed. There’s nothing happening after the fact to redeem her of what she did. The backstory shows that she is seeking revenge for what happened, as well as her friends who are with her. They went and got revenge on the man who stole not only theirs, but the entire worlds, potential future of ridding themselves of a plague.
The background, as well as the present, storytelling aren’t there to redeem her, but to show she is just like Ellie and Joel. They are all people who are surviving, who seek revenge and do things to get it. Hell, if you pay attention to Ellie’s story it comes out Joel and Tommy have done worse things to other people than me hat Abby did. The whole point isn’t to justify or redeem her, but to be narrative to show she’s just another human living in a post apocalyptic world who does things to survive, and revenge, just like the main characters from the 1st game.

To me, Joel is redeemed during the course of the first game. I feel that didn’t happen with Abby, so I still despise the character. Even if a cure could’ve been developed from murdering Ellie (it wouldn’t have, but for the sake of argument I’ll entertain the thought), that didn’t factor into Abby’s motivations at all. Her quest for revenge is exactly the same as Ellie’s to be sure, but it’s Abby going out of her way to be a complete piece of subhuman trash 95% of the rest of the time that, to me at least, defines her as a character. For me, a character like that does need redemption if I’m supposed to empathize with her. If I’m not supposed to empathize with her, then forcing me to play as her for 10+ hours is intellectual sadism on the part of the developers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.

with out going into a short essay or going into the none main line games which only expand the story further shortening it down to family dies mad guy kills people while technically right strips so much out of the actual story.

for just some of the extra story details of just the main line games there's, Kratos trying to hold onto who he was while falling further and further, the god's and how they are effected by the opening of pandora's box, every thing with the prophecy of kratos being the son of zeus, Athena Playing kratos like a fiddle to try and usurp the pantheon, ect ect.

sure on the surface god of war is just mad guys kills people but there is so much more going on in the narrative which is also massively expanded in none 1-3 games. the series didn't have such a massive leap as people would think going into 4 it's just that alot of the stuff in the previous games was easy to miss due to how over the top things like the violence and nudity were for the time and that the base base story of revenge is alot simpler on the surface then a man trying to be better and raise his son right.

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god of war is a poor comparison. it's in the name. we know what we are going to do in the game and we are doing it. total sync.

If TLOU2 was all about Abby, i.e. you start as her and end as her - showing us the story of revenge and her growth from that, killing both Joel and Ellie in the process (well sorta letting Ellie go in the end would've worked as well) - that would've been a better story. No one would've complained much about Abby's appearance and substance. Heck, there could've been a minigame at the gym - go pump some iron, Abby, press square to pump, instead of dog petting.

Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.

[Elim Garak]

Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.

Of course, we would, hence I said "as much"

[Darththeo]

It would be pretty boring if they made us lift dumb bells and do squats. I'd rather do the much more interesting shit like in her story like being close with the wolves then getting close with the scar runaways than learn more about her weight/cardio gym break down. And they do make references to it anyway so you're the one lying

Did I say have an interactive exercise session? No, I didn't. You are as bad as Tech ... ignore what is said, make up a strawman, argue against strawman, say the person is being unreasonable.

And no, they do not make references to her working out as much as would be required. Having a gym in the stadium isn't a reference ... and that is the ONLY "reference." Again, change Manny finding her passed out in the library with her passed out in the gym after a workout. Don't have her be Isaac's number 1 scar killer, but have him upset at her for wasting their resources. These are minor changes that help build the idea that her build is reasonable. I am literally talking a line here or minor changes to a scene. And you go "A fully interactive squat session would be boring!" Literally, not what I even said. And given FF7 has an inactive squat session and people seem to like and other games had interactive exercise sessions that people enjoy because they are worked into the story ... I am calling bullshit on it being by definition boring.

But the fact she can exercise as much as needed and eat as much as needed while still having enough time to be on patrol enough to be the Number 1 Scar Killer is nonsensical story telling. Either the rest of the WLF are completely inept at killing scars or Abby wouldn't have enough time to bulk up.

And you have no grounds to call me a liar when you don't understand what the story of the game is. World building aspects are not the story of the game, they are added and often needed fluff. Or another way to put it, it is icing, not cake. And having a lot of icing doesn't make the cake itself good. Gameplay and environment aren't the story. Abby's missions are glorified side quests. She has no overall goal in her stories, Ellie does. But because they devoted time and resources to Abby's story, the side characters in Ellie's story suffer for ... Jesse and Dina do not get the attention they deserve to be fully realized characters and have a purpose in the story other than "be Ellie's back up."

I don't give a crap if you like the story, that is personal preference. You have every right to like bad stories. I have a problem when you treat it as a fact a good story and everyone else is wrong. I have a problem with people like Tech that support the argument if you didn't like it you are sexist (even though he doesn't have the decency to actually make the accusation directly.)

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Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.

Pretty much gaming in general right now. And the people calling TLoU2 "woke" don't seem to have played the same game as I did. Lev being transgender is worked into his character, but they are not in your face that Lev is trans. They are very natural in building Lev into the world in a reasonable manner. Lev and Yara were the best part of Abby's story, but we don't get to spend enough time with them to really flesh out their characters.

I hate how that I complain about issues I have with Abby, that I get roped into the people who just hate Abby for killing Joel and that I am just mad that "Buff lady killed male protag!"

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Abby literally beats an enemy that was bigger and stronger than anything Joel faced in the first game ... single handed. The Rat King alone is worse than anything Joel face. Joel had no help? Bill helped Joel. Ellie helped Joel. etc ... Joel had tons of help. This is the problem with your argument, you are outright lying about Joel to make it.

Abby is literally in a car crash and then gets into a firefight with more than three people shortly afterward. How you can't see that you are wrong here is beyond me. You lie about Joel and give Abby every benefit of the doubt. You can't do that.

Abby was in a car crash and got into a fire fight with several people helping. Joel was in a car crash and got into a fight with 3 people while having to watch out for Ellie. The rat king is a zombie... not a human there creativity is limited.. Its like if Joel solo'd a bloater in first game. It's a dumb creature that runs on instinct. Not really an accomplish.

Humans are more of a threaten than the zombies... The fungus is what makes the takeover of humanity realistic. If it didn't spread like in the games the military would've handled it with easy. Unkempt water supplies are scary because the fungus could spread through them. That is what makes the game so much more realistic. It's like the walking dead were the military and a clean and easy way to win.

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Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.

That the points she doesn't become a decent person till later... Some suppose martyr or saviors are hypocrites.

[Darththeo]

Abby was in a car crash and got into a fire fight with several people helping. Joel was in a car crash and got into a fight with 3 people while having to watch out for Ellie. The rat king is a zombie... not a human there creativity is limited.. Its like if Joel solo'd a bloater in first game. It's a dumb creature that runs on instinct. Not really an accomplish.

Abby had Manny and Mel ... Mel who was pregnant and a medic (not a combat specialist). After being in a car crash where Mel and Abby were in the bed of a truck, that they survived with no effective injuries whatsoever. (Mel got shot at some point, but it is never confirmed when). Joel's accident you keep bring up had him in the front seat with a seat belt on. And he went to fight 3 people ... oh my, one person can't possible have beat three people ... so unreasonable.

The rat king is worse than any bloater, so even if Joel did solo a bloater, you'd hold it against him and make up some BS to show that the Rat King is some how more minor. And yes, it is. By your logic, if I survived a bear attack it "isn't an accomplishment" because it is just a dumb creature. Yes, humans have creativity, but just because humans can be creative doesn't mean they are. And given the people Joel was fighting just had their plan blow up because Joel didn't fall for the fake injury, for all we know they were improvising and didn't have a plan ... therefor, not that impressive.

Your argument is twist anything Joel does to make it unreasonable, but bend over backwards to make anything Abby does believable. You are treating Joel differently than Abby, but I don't know why I am surprised ... YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE STORY OF THE GAME IS.

[RobertoCarlos]

Abby had Manny and Mel ... Mel who was pregnant and a medic (not a combat specialist). After being in a car crash where Mel and Abby were in the bed of a truck, that they survived with no effective injuries whatsoever. (Mel got shot at some point, but it is never confirmed when). Joel's accident you keep bring up had him in the front seat with a seat belt on. And he went to fight 3 people ... oh my, one person can't possible have beat three people ... so unreasonable.

The rat king is worse than any bloater, so even if Joel did solo a bloater, you'd hold it against him and make up some BS to show that the Rat King is some how more minor. And yes, it is. By your logic, if I survived a bear attack it "isn't an accomplishment" because it is just a dumb creature. Yes, humans have creativity, but just because humans can be creative doesn't mean they are. And given the people Joel was fighting just had their plan blow up because Joel didn't fall for the fake injury, for all we know they were improvising and didn't have a plan ... therefor, not that impressive.

Your argument is twist anything Joel does to make it unreasonable, but bend over backwards to make anything Abby does believable. You are treating Joel differently than Abby, but I don't know why I am surprised ... YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE STORY OF THE GAME IS.

Dude it's the 2nd game. Of course the rat King is stronger than anything in the first game. Video games like to bring new challenges not just repeat themselves otherwise you may as well just play the first game again.

And it's been a few years since the first game was set so it makes sense there are stronger zombies as they have had more time to grow. Jesus.

[Darththeo]

Dude it's the 2nd game. Of course the rat King is stronger than anything in the first game. Video games like to bring new challenges not just repeat themselves otherwise you may as well just play the first game again.

And it's been a few years since the first game was set so it makes sense there are stronger zombies as they have had more time to grow. Jesus.

I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.

[RobertoCarlos]

I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.

They are video game characters. You wanna talk about realism?

OK why do they never get tired doing parkour? In real life lifting yourself up over rails climbing buildings etc you'd be lucky to do it for a few hours. How do they do it over 3 days non stop while fighting/stealthing and not eating any food on screen. Hmmm!

I call fake bs! Not even realistic at all

[Darththeo]

They are video game characters. You wanna talk about realism?

OK why do they never get tired doing parkour? In real life lifting yourself up over rails climbing buildings etc you'd be lucky to do it for a few hours. How do they do it over 3 days non stop while fighting/stealthing and not eating any food on screen. Hmmm!

I call fake bs! Not even realistic at all

Maybe I am not being clear.

Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.

[exochaft]

Maybe I am not being clear.

Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.

What you're referencing is the suspension of disbelief, and it's a vitally important factor when it comes to any medium of fiction. It allows there to be jumping of conclusions, fuzzy math/science, or straight up "wait, this isn't possible in real life!" to be smoothed over in your mind to allow a cohesive experience. Good media does an excellent job of smoothing things over, terrible media does not.

One of my biggest gripes about many games and movies nowadays is that creators either don't care about making content where you can feasibly suspend your disbelief, or they're terrible at it. A huge way to making it difficult for people to suspend their disbelief is to constantly barrage them with things that all fail to make sense, either on a small level or in huge game/reality-breaking ways... what's worse is when it isn't important to the story or gets shoe-horned in. Another huge way, when it comes to sequels/trilogies/etc., is to completely ignore/disregard cannon constantly, make established characters act or think in certain ways that is way out of character. Furthermore, when writers get lazy everything becomes a plot device or on-the-nose preaching or exposition, to where it's so bad that you cannot invest yourself in a story because you feel like the creator is treating its audience like idiots. The list goes on, but my posts have been long recently so I won't keep going.

In the case of TLOU2, I'd lean towards the creators didn't care to try to craft a narrative that appealed to a normal person's suspension of disbelief. It's littered with character inconsistencies, contrived scenarios that only work if everyone is as dumb as a rock who is half-asleep, and forced messaging that is plainly obvious their real goal when it comes to the story. As is the case with the people in charge of creating Star Trek content as of late, these creators are treating the game as a platform to preach their narratives and agendas, not make content that appeals to a wide base of fans or new players.

[RobertoCarlos]

Maybe I am not being clear.

Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.

Joel gets impaled by a massive pole after falling over 2 meters straight onto his back/head and still manages to clear out a compound of fireflies. If you're getting worked up about Abby surviving a crash you are not being genuine

[Darththeo]

Joel gets impaled by a massive pole after falling over 2 meters straight onto his back/head and still manages to clear out a compound of fireflies. If you're getting worked up about Abby surviving a crash you are not being genuine

"Massive Pole" ... is was rebar ... which people in the real work have survived being impaled with. That is more of an issue that Ellie managed to treat him than Joel surviving. Where it went through him was not likely to hit a vital organ as it is low on his torso. People survive that, with treatment in the real world.

Time passes between that injury and to when he takes on the Fireflies (which is gameplay, we don't know how many he canonly had to fight). You need to separate gameplay from the story. For example, in many shooters too many underlings to mow through is common place. He didn't get impaled, get up and then shot up an entire building one day to the next.

Abby survived at least two story fall into a pool going through a glass roof without injury and then progresses down several stories of an infected building that is falling apart on the inside. Abby survived falling two meters onto her back and head as well after having just went through a burning building, nearly have been crushed by rubble ... while in a fight where both sides want her dead. After barely surviving somehow has the energy to go kick Ellie's ass because Ellie's crew stupidly left the map behind.

Yes, Joel has unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story actually does it best to explain how he was able to do it. Abby does unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story does so little to explain it ... she just does.

[Volatilis]

"Massive Pole" ... is was rebar ... which people in the real work have survived being impaled with. That is more of an issue that Ellie managed to treat him than Joel surviving. Where it went through him was not likely to hit a vital organ as it is low on his torso. People survive that, with treatment in the real world.

Time passes between that injury and to when he takes on the Fireflies (which is gameplay, we don't know how many he canonly had to fight). You need to separate gameplay from the story. For example, in many shooters too many underlings to mow through is common place. He didn't get impaled, get up and then shot up and entire building one day to the next.

Abby survived at least two story fall into a pool going through a glass roof without injury and then progresses down several stories of an infected building that is falling apart on the inside. Abby survived falling two meters onto her back and head as well after having just went through a burning building, nearly have been crushed by rubble ... while in a fight where both sides want her dead. After barely surviving somehow has the energy to go kick Ellie's ass because Ellie's crew stupidly left the map behind.

Yes, Joel has unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story actually does it best to explain how he was able to do it. Abby does unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story does so little to explain it ... she just does.

He gets pushed over a balcony so even extra force momentum and looks to be over 3 meters high. And where he lands the pole go straight through his kidneys.

Being generous and if he got top level surgery instantly with the correct blood bags on hand MAYBE.

But getting a little girl to pull you up while you hemorrhage blood and no clean tools/medicare anywhere in sight, im gonna go with dead

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.

No, I think she has a more realistic and grounded journey physics wise. The last of us had a 9/10 character development.

[Darththeo]

No, I think she has a more realistic and grounded journey physics wise. The last of us had a 9/10 character development.

Except she literally doesn't. She survives more shit in 3 days than Joel did in the whole game of TLoU.

She survives a car accident where she is in the bed.
She survives nearly being lynched.
She survives falling several stories into a pool that magically still had water in it.
She survives traversing a building full of infected that is in the process of collaspe.
She survives fighting the Rat King.
She survives a battle where both sides want her dead.
She survives going through a burning building.

And that isn't everything and that is all in 3 days.