Page 59 of 77 FirstFirst ...
9
49
57
58
59
60
61
69
... LastLast
  1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    well he is not wrong - at least not completly

    for most people WoW was not their first mmorpg - for me vanilla was always "easy " mmorpg :

    a)no xp loss upon death
    You make fair points for wow being easier than other MMOs but it was possible to lose xp when you died in wow. It was also possible to die as a ghost in wow as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I can't believe this argument is still happening. Retail is difficult because of complex encounter mechanics. Classic is difficult because of the necessary time investment needed. Retail is an obstacle course. Classic is an incredibly long hike. These are two totally different and incomparable models of difficulty, and this entire debate is everyone talking past each other because they aren't talking about the same thing.

    This debate just refuses to die because some people can't accept that complex encounter mechanics are not the only type of difficulty in the world.
    To clear a raid what sort of time investment do you need? Is about 5 hours a week enough to clear AQ40? Yes it is. My shitty third rated run does that weekly. Classic is so easy that there is no prep involved. No consumables, no enchants, no world buffs except for the SW one because you logged in at the right time. Preparation for retail is a lot longer. There's the neck level, the corruptions you need, the corruption level for your cloak, any esscences you are missing. If you skip these then you are kicked straight after the first boss. Retail is harder and more grindy than classic and that's just for normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You make fair points for wow being easier than other MMOs but it was possible to lose xp when you died in wow. It was also possible to die as a ghost in wow as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    To clear a raid what sort of time investment do you need? Is about 5 hours a week enough to clear AQ40? Yes it is. My shitty third rated run does that weekly. Classic is so easy that there is no prep involved. No consumables, no enchants, no world buffs except for the SW one because you logged in at the right time. Preparation for retail is a lot longer. There's the neck level, the corruptions you need, the corruption level for your cloak, any esscences you are missing. If you skip these then you are kicked straight after the first boss. Retail is harder and more grindy than classic and that's just for normal.
    First of all, it's really weird to act like you start a character in classic and that character immediately walks into AQ. If you want to pretend pre-AQ leveling and gearing doesn't exist I don't really understand the point of having this discussion.

    Second of all, you don't need to do any of that stuff to see the raids in retail. You just need to get the necessary ilvl to qualify for LFR, and you can get that ilvl from a few world quests. Even normal doesn't require most of the stuff you are talking about, just the cloak.

    I could log into retail right now, be max level tomorrow (if not by the end of the day today), and be in Nyalotha by the end of the next day easily. I don't need to run one dungeon. I don't need to even know the previous raid tiers exist. I barely even need to level. How long would it take you to see AQ if you made a character in classic today?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #1163
    if you want a grindy more difficult mmo.
    Play close to any asian mmo. Early version of aion, now that was a challenging grind (that most ppl quit cause it was too difficult rip game)

    Vanilla was difficult cause people didn't know mmo's or the game. Classic is easy cause people know everything inside and out.

  4. #1164
    I am Murloc!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    5,563
    It's like comparing apples to oranges really.

    Starting a character fresh on Classic is obviously going to take longer simply because the leveling process is going to take what, four to five times the length of live? All of that extra time you save from the leveling process on the live version of the game can be translated into getting essences, cape upgrades and gear from M+. At this point in time, AP really isn't going to matter, so it's essentially the other three things I listed to get up and ready to raid in live.

    The speed at which you do any of these things on live is entirely dependent on a friend group as well. While I don't doubt that you could be high enough iLvL to enter Nyalotha by the end of the week, you're likely not going to get into any Nylotha normal mode pugs by the end of the week unless you have a group of several people willing to help you get gear in M+ or other miscellaneous sources. The biggest barrier to entry is essences (which aren't easy to get on a fresh character) and cloak upgrades, which are also an incredible grind if you're trying to power level through them. Even if you had a group carrying you through M+ dungeons or arena getting you 455-465 gear at best, you're effectively going to be dead weight on live for a few weeks because the amount of power that comes from corruptions (and having the proper ones, again a currency that overlaps three important gearing mechanisms) and essences can't be overstated.

    So yeah, getting up to speed on live is actually a huge grind, but most of that grind is basically 'savings' that you otherwise would still be doing, by actually leveling in classic.

    Classic on the other hand is going to take at least 4x as long to level in. It's sort of a grind if you want to call it that at max level, but the dungeon blues and world shit that you can get in classic (even with completely unknown people) is incredibly strong. Of course knowing people helps, but for most roles, a full blue set for healing or DPS is going to make you incredibly powerful in classic, and effectively not dead weight.

    Having friends in either version of the game is going to be a huge boon in the gearing process, and unless you're talking about the LFR version of Nyalotha, getting into pug normal (or higher) raid dungeons simply isn't going to happen unless you have friends allowing you to be dead weight. I know this gets lost on people, but the live version of the game has four different difficulties and comparing LFR Nyalotha to classic raiding is pretty hilarious (even if this is a fair comparison in difficulty). Getting the necessary amount of iLvL for LFR (if we're going to talk about LFR) isn't going to be "easy" (not claiming this is hard either) if you don't do dungeons, because world quest gear is random (meaning overlaps) and depends on the iLvL of your equipped character (you need 410 iLvL to enter LFR Nyalotha BTW).

    There are loads of guilds in Classic depending on what role you pick that would take effectively dead weight, especially if it's a shaman on horde (merely to drop totems) or paladin on alliance (assuming they're missing blessings). As long as you're max level and can do these simple tasks, the value of your character isn't really tied to the gear that your character has. Nobody (again, unless you have friends) is going to take your shitty geared retail character to normal or above with an awful iLvL, terrible essences, and virtually zero corruptions. Obviously it can be done, and boosting exists, but most people don't want to take dead weight on live.

    Finally there's not much progression on Classic because every realm except the super dead ones have dozens upon dozens of raids that fully clear all of the relevant content. Most of your player power in Classic comes from consumables and world buffs, and getting a workable set of gear can be done in pugs once you hit max level, with very little organization needed. There are loads of guilds around that will take you as dead weight in Classic guilds if you fulfill certain roles upon hitting max level too. The amount that would do this on the live version of the game simply doesn't exist, unless you have contacts.

    I have no doubt that somebody could get into LFR Nyalotha in a single week, but anything beyond that without friends? Naw. It's a silly argument anyway. Classic has one premier difficulty and one raid that's the most "difficult" at the moment, whereas live has four difficulties. Classic wins the preparation time from leveling to AQ40 simply because of the leveling time in Classic, and nothing more. As soon as you hit max level you can pretty much join any "end game" guild in Classic. On the flip side, trying to do the truly difficult things on the live version of the game from scratch is a far harder path, and way more of a grind than anything Classic entails.

    This isn't me really trying to bash anything, but trying to compare LFR raiding on live when four difficulties exist to a singular world where one difficulty exists is super silly. Some people might feel like they've seen it all by just doing LFR on live, but it's kinda like doing a 400 meter sprint and saying that it's about the same as a 5000 meter sprint because you've seen the entire track anyways, so why bother?

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    It's like comparing apples to oranges really.

    Starting a character fresh on Classic is obviously going to take longer simply because the leveling process is going to take what, four to five times the length of live? All of that extra time you save from the leveling process on the live version of the game can be translated into getting essences, cape upgrades and gear from M+. At this point in time, AP really isn't going to matter, so it's essentially the other three things I listed to get up and ready to raid in live.

    The speed at which you do any of these things on live is entirely dependent on a friend group as well. While I don't doubt that you could be high enough iLvL to enter Nyalotha by the end of the week, you're likely not going to get into any Nylotha normal mode pugs by the end of the week unless you have a group of several people willing to help you get gear in M+ or other miscellaneous sources. The biggest barrier to entry is essences (which aren't easy to get on a fresh character) and cloak upgrades, which are also an incredible grind if you're trying to power level through them. Even if you had a group carrying you through M+ dungeons or arena getting you 455-465 gear at best, you're effectively going to be dead weight on live for a few weeks because the amount of power that comes from corruptions (and having the proper ones, again a currency that overlaps three important gearing mechanisms) and essences can't be overstated.

    So yeah, getting up to speed on live is actually a huge grind, but most of that grind is basically 'savings' that you otherwise would still be doing, by actually leveling in classic.

    Classic on the other hand is going to take at least 4x as long to level in. It's sort of a grind if you want to call it that at max level, but the dungeon blues and world shit that you can get in classic (even with completely unknown people) is incredibly strong. Of course knowing people helps, but for most roles, a full blue set for healing or DPS is going to make you incredibly powerful in classic, and effectively not dead weight.

    Having friends in either version of the game is going to be a huge boon in the gearing process, and unless you're talking about the LFR version of Nyalotha, getting into pug normal (or higher) raid dungeons simply isn't going to happen unless you have friends allowing you to be dead weight. I know this gets lost on people, but the live version of the game has four different difficulties and comparing LFR Nyalotha to classic raiding is pretty hilarious (even if this is a fair comparison in difficulty). Getting the necessary amount of iLvL for LFR (if we're going to talk about LFR) isn't going to be "easy" (not claiming this is hard either) if you don't do dungeons, because world quest gear is random (meaning overlaps) and depends on the iLvL of your equipped character (you need 410 iLvL to enter LFR Nyalotha BTW).

    There are loads of guilds in Classic depending on what role you pick that would take effectively dead weight, especially if it's a shaman on horde (merely to drop totems) or paladin on alliance (assuming they're missing blessings). As long as you're max level and can do these simple tasks, the value of your character isn't really tied to the gear that your character has. Nobody (again, unless you have friends) is going to take your shitty geared retail character to normal or above with an awful iLvL, terrible essences, and virtually zero corruptions. Obviously it can be done, and boosting exists, but most people don't want to take dead weight on live.

    Finally there's not much progression on Classic because every realm except the super dead ones have dozens upon dozens of raids that fully clear all of the relevant content. Most of your player power in Classic comes from consumables and world buffs, and getting a workable set of gear can be done in pugs once you hit max level, with very little organization needed. There are loads of guilds around that will take you as dead weight in Classic guilds if you fulfill certain roles upon hitting max level too. The amount that would do this on the live version of the game simply doesn't exist, unless you have contacts.

    I have no doubt that somebody could get into LFR Nyalotha in a single week, but anything beyond that without friends? Naw. It's a silly argument anyway. Classic has one premier difficulty and one raid that's the most "difficult" at the moment, whereas live has four difficulties. Classic wins the preparation time from leveling to AQ40 simply because of the leveling time in Classic, and nothing more. As soon as you hit max level you can pretty much join any "end game" guild in Classic. On the flip side, trying to do the truly difficult things on the live version of the game from scratch is a far harder path, and way more of a grind than anything Classic entails.

    This isn't me really trying to bash anything, but trying to compare LFR raiding on live when four difficulties exist to a singular world where one difficulty exists is super silly. Some people might feel like they've seen it all by just doing LFR on live, but it's kinda like doing a 400 meter sprint and saying that it's about the same as a 5000 meter sprint because you've seen the entire track anyways, so why bother?
    There is a fundamental problem with your whole argument: You are acting like increased difficulty settings or repeated daily activities are content. They aren't.

    In classic, it takes an extremely significant amount of time to see everything, not because the game forces you to repeat the same content over and over and over again, but because the content is built to require time investment.

    In retail, you can see all of the content extremely quickly and then start repeating that exact same content over and over and over again to progress your gear.

    The question here is really how long does it take to get to the "treadmill" stage, which is the point where you have seen all of the content and are just repeating it ad nauseam for rewards that allow more repetition. In classic, that takes a LONG time. In retail, you are at that point basically a few hours after reaching max level and getting to max level is trivial.

    So my original argument was that in classic it's a hike, because you have to work your way through everything to get somewhere and it takes time to get there. It's a journey. In retail, it's not a hike, because it is about getting to the treadmill stage in a trivial amount of time and just slamming yourself into the same content over and over and over again at increasing levels of mechanical complexity. I don't see that you've countered that at all.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #1166
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    for most people WoW was not their first mmorpg
    Really? I thought the exact opposite was true.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #1167
    I am Murloc!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    5,563
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There is a fundamental problem with your whole argument: You are acting like increased difficulty settings or repeated daily activities are content. They aren't.

    In classic, it takes an extremely significant amount of time to see everything, not because the game forces you to repeat the same content over and over and over again, but because the content is built to require time investment.

    In retail, you can see all of the content extremely quickly and then start repeating that exact same content over and over and over again to progress your gear.

    The question here is really how long does it take to get to the "treadmill" stage, which is the point where you have seen all of the content and are just repeating it ad nauseam for rewards that allow more repetition. In classic, that takes a LONG time. In retail, you are at that point basically a few hours after reaching max level and getting to max level is trivial.

    So my original argument was that in classic it's a hike, because you have to work your way through everything to get somewhere and it takes time to get there. It's a journey. In retail, it's not a hike, because it is about getting to the treadmill stage in a trivial amount of time and just slamming yourself into the same content over and over and over again at increasing levels of mechanical complexity. I don't see that you've countered that at all.
    Classic is literally a treadmill of grinding materials so that you can either raid or do PvP with incredibly powerful consumables or buffs better than other people. It's either that, or logging off you main character periodically throughout the week to collect buffs so that you can do the 'next' raid a bit more effeciently.

    The only thing that takes a long time in Classic is leveling. Everything else is exactly as you stated, a treadmill. It might be easier to witness a treadmill as you 'reset' every 6 months, but you're on a treadmill whether you like it or not in Classic and it's entirely around consumables and buffs. At least the 'meta' of the treadmill changes up every 6 months on the live version of the game as to what you're grinding next, on Classic it's the same world buffs, same consumables and the same basic premise, which is grinding gold.

    It's ironic that people slam BFA for having "borrowed power" when quite literally, nearly 50% of your players power comes exclusively from world buffs and consumables.

    Difficulty DOES matter, at least in the context of 'seeing all the content'. As long as you can set aside a few measly hours of time each week to raid, literally anybody who hits 60 can join a guild and clear everything that's currently available. Aside from elongated leveling process (which seems to be the big *sticking* point), nothing prevents people from seeing everything in Classic with little to no effort. There's no real progression present in Classic, which is fine, but you literally just level up, join a guild and you're suddenly clearing everything.

    Are you playing a different Classic than I am? You literally take a long time to level to 60, then you repeat the same content over and over and over again to progress your gear. What's different? You enter a raid, clear it with no real progression, then go back to the treadmill of getting consumables through gold farming activities so you can do the same thing again every week. Just because there isn't a world quest marker or a blue repeatable exclamation point about a quest givers head, doesn't make farming for consumables any less of a daily activity lol.

    To each their own, but the whole comparison of equating LFR as "seeing it all" is pretty mind numbing. The only journey in Classic is leveling, and that's it. It's still a fun game, one that I play now and played 15 years ago, but the whole "journey" aspect of Classic really isn't there anymore. You don't look up to people anymore in this game and there's nothing that binds anybody to an individual guild anymore because literally every guild on your server is capable of doing everything (albeit some are faster than others).

  8. #1168
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    I could log into retail right now, be max level tomorrow (if not by the end of the day today), and be in Nyalotha by the end of the next day easily. I don't need to run one dungeon. I don't need to even know the previous raid tiers exist. I barely even need to level.
    This is the point i realise to completely ignore everything someone has to say. This is easily the most ridiculous thing i have seen in this argument so far.

  9. #1169
    the buff stacking is cool an everything but it doesn't last for the entirety of aq40 most ppls world buffs will probably run out by the time you reach twin emps or just after them. you don't need full world buffs to down bosses and both times i've done C'thun now my world buffs ran out over an hour before getting to him. there aren't many guilds on my server that have cleared aq40 in a single raid. its either that or you're just going to slowly lose ppl to trash and attrition. the buffs are great for the first 2hrs of a 4hr raid but, they don't exist for the second half of your raid. so if you can't kill bosses without world buffs ya fooked. when naxx comes along its even longer than aq40 so its likely for the vast majority of it you actually won't have world buffs. it only takes one fuck up on trash and they are gone. the buff thing is quite meta this time around but it isn't the be all end all.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-08-30 at 09:25 PM.

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by illiterite View Post
    Remember when you were in Kindergarten learning math for the first time? Your classmates and yourself had no real clue what was going on, but collectively you figured it out with the help of your teachers, then you ran home with excitement showing your parents how good you are at adding 1+1.

    Imagine going back to Kindergarten 15 years later expecting to be excited about learning how to add again.
    I think this comment sums it up perfectly. When I played vanilla, i was like 13 years old. I played on private server, where many mechanics were bugged or broken, but damn so good community we had. As a 13 year old, you also have many many other interests (sports, girls, school,...) so it took me quite a lot of time to turn 60, but i was very happy when i did. Huge milestone for me that time. And then it was quite hard to meet up with guildies to raid, but when we did, it felt satisfying...- in todays view and comparison with retail the mechanics are primitive, but consider that wowhead did not exist and we didnt feel like we should “study” the strategy, just learning from wipes.
    Chin up lil pup.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by koppi View Post
    I think this comment sums it up perfectly. When I played vanilla, i was like 13 years old. I played on private server, where many mechanics were bugged or broken, but damn so good community we had. As a 13 year old, you also have many many other interests (sports, girls, school,...) so it took me quite a lot of time to turn 60, but i was very happy when i did. Huge milestone for me that time. And then it was quite hard to meet up with guildies to raid, but when we did, it felt satisfying...- in todays view and comparison with retail the mechanics are primitive, but consider that wowhead did not exist and we didnt feel like we should “study” the strategy, just learning from wipes.
    Your comment reminds me of the maxim from science fiction fandom, that "The Golden Age of Science Fiction is 14."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #1172
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    First of all, it's really weird to act like you start a character in classic and that character immediately walks into AQ. If you want to pretend pre-AQ leveling and gearing doesn't exist I don't really understand the point of having this discussion.

    Second of all, you don't need to do any of that stuff to see the raids in retail. You just need to get the necessary ilvl to qualify for LFR, and you can get that ilvl from a few world quests. Even normal doesn't require most of the stuff you are talking about, just the cloak.

    I could log into retail right now, be max level tomorrow (if not by the end of the day today), and be in Nyalotha by the end of the next day easily. I don't need to run one dungeon. I don't need to even know the previous raid tiers exist. I barely even need to level. How long would it take you to see AQ if you made a character in classic today?
    So what you are saying is that you will spend 15 to 20 hours to level and then another 15 to 20 hours to get gear to do LFR? Sorry buddy but without running a few dungeons that's not going to happen.

    First of all 30 hours in 2 days is not 5 hours or so a week. So we agree that retail is more time consuming.

    Second, if you don't do instanced content then how will you get the ilvl required for lfr. You can't buy it with currency because the currency comes from dungeons. You could buy it with gold I guess but this means that your other characters did the heavy lifting. The answer is you can't.

    Thirdly, this ain't about creating a new character. This is about the misconception that classic takes more preparation than retail. It plainly doesn't. All you need to clear the latest raid is to already be 60. It might be different for Naxx because the difficulty would be in having enough hp surviving the mechanic (singular on purpose).

    TBH, next time actually log into retail and experience it for yourself. Spouting the lies that Classic apologists doesn't make for a convincing argument. This coming from someone who has actually played Vanilla and Classic and Retail from Vanilla to 8.3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    for most people WoW was not their first mmorpg - for me vanilla was always "easy " mmorpg :
    Didn't Vanilla WoW have like more subscribers than every other MMORPG before that put together? Yes, it was "easy" MMORPG, that was one of it's biggest selling points. I'd rather say quite the opposite, for most people it was quite definately their first MMORPG. I believe there was way more generic Warcraft fans than MMORPG veterans playing it.

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    TBH, next time actually log into retail and experience it for yourself. Spouting the lies that Classic apologists doesn't make for a convincing argument. This coming from someone who has actually played Vanilla and Classic and Retail from Vanilla to 8.3.
    You are right, it is just forum talk with classic anyways.

    The people who are declined in retail in every gaming mode because of lack of prep and gameplay are the ones who try to spin the even more casual classic into something that it isnt and never was. You drop out of retail into classic and not the other way around.

    Vanilla day 1 till 8.3 player aswell.


    -

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    You are right, it is just forum talk with classic anyways.

    The people who are declined in retail in every gaming mode because of lack of prep and gameplay are the ones who try to spin the even more casual classic into something that it isnt and never was. You drop out of retail into classic and not the other way around.

    Vanilla day 1 till 8.3 player aswell.
    What a ridiculous assertion lmao

  16. #1176
    Elemental Lord TJ's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    8,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    What a ridiculous assertion lmao
    The implication that everyone that plays Classic is some sort of failed retail player that was "declined" is indeed laughable.

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    WoW is not a hard game? Bro have you raided on retail since wotlk? A LOT of bosses were down right hard - No way to brute force and even with a good team you cant do it without gear.
    Yup, up to Azshara mythic all the way from ragnaros 15 years ago, then I quit retail to play classic. I don't think it's a hard nor competative game. The hard part about it is toget 20, 25 or 40 to do the same thing. By no means am I saying I never made mistakes, I did, more so in later expansions because I simply didn't care as much. However, that's not because bosses were hard or anything about this game was hard. I think the skill cap in wow is extremly low compared to mobas or fps games in general.
    <Progress> - Firemaw EU

  18. #1178
    Is something that is min maxed and cleared/rushed through the first day too easy 14-16 years after it was originally released?

    Why yes, yes it is. If you are playing Classic for a challenge you should've just stuck to live servers and done cutting edge mythic instead.
    Prot Warrior 2004-2008. Hunter 2008-2018.
    Retired boomer.

  19. #1179
    The only thing actually making Classic terrible is the current classic community. While raids are easy, it's quite relaxing. I played vanilla and have played all expansions with only short breaks. Played Classic for about 2 months, had some fun and then quit because I couldnt stand the retarded community. Not saying it's any better in retail but at least in retail I don't need to see or interact with most people.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by fjeenzy View Post
    Yup, up to Azshara mythic all the way from ragnaros 15 years ago, then I quit retail to play classic. I don't think it's a hard nor competative game. The hard part about it is toget 20, 25 or 40 to do the same thing. By no means am I saying I never made mistakes, I did, more so in later expansions because I simply didn't care as much. However, that's not because bosses were hard or anything about this game was hard. I think the skill cap in wow is extremly low compared to mobas or fps games in general.
    Sure dude, we can all agree that FPS or RTS (Dunno about moba, only played warcraft 3 coustome maps...) is harder than MMO's or RPG's, but saying WoW is an easy game is a lie...If so top guilds would not spend 100's of wipes. Some-times even playing correctly is not enough, where as on classic you just need to gather 40 people and you can clear it in low gear...I played it for 1 month quit a bit recently, and in those 30 days I pugged all raids, but AQ40...

    I joined my guilds main raid 1 day for their 2nd AQ40 progress, and we one-shot emperor and after 3 wipes cthun was close to dead, but raid time was over...Classic is a joke when you pug raids. I mean for crying out loud...You kill Ragnaros before he submerges, I dont ever recall having done that in vanilla, but I also dont remember much from it, but was such a suprise seeing ragnaros die in a random pug I found through trade chat, before add's come...Not to mention BWL only giving pugs problems if tanks fails to handle firemaw or something, or the fact that most guild kills huhuran without using nature res...
    Last edited by Djuntas; 2020-08-31 at 07:51 PM.
    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/djuntas ARPG - RTS - MMO

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •