Revendreth doesNOT mean a soul is redeemable or did nothing wrong

[Minikin]

As the title says. If Garrosh or Sylvanas or heck even Arthas was sent to Revendreth, it doesnt mean they did nothing wrong. Obviously the working of the Maw isnt confirmed YET. but what IS confirmed is that Revendreth is basically a last chance for a soul. In the quest chain some redeem themselves, some fail and are sent to the Maw. Basically people who did the right thing in life dont end up in Revendreth as their first stop.

Obviously as stated before and all, we dont yet know if the Maw is the immediate destination of all evil doers. Or is the path such that every single soul gets a chance in revendreth and then upon failure ends up in the maw, or upon success can go be a bitey boi.

I think its important that its clear before people get all amped up seeing that orc in Afterlives: Bastion and go on the parade of "Garrosh did nothing wrong". Because honestly. If Garrosh did nothing wrong, he wouldnt be in Revendreth.

We dont yet know why Sylvanas got thrown in the Maw when she commited suicide because:
- It is NOT confirmed yet if the Jailor made it happen to manipulate events
- If Devos and Uther chucking Arthas right into the Maw caused a problem allowing the Jailor to extend his reach for Sylvanas' suicide which was right after Bolvar was crowned.
- It is not known, if there is a direct path to the maw or if revendreth is a pitstop in the middle.

[Your Mommy]

Revendreth is where inherently good characters that did bad things go to to get redeemed.
That's honestly what I believe. And that's why we're seeing Kael'thas and Garrosh there. They were genuinely good people before you know what happened.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead

[faithbane]

I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead

Thats what we thought long time ago by filling some blanks in the lore, there are other characters who are undead in different realms such as mograine and kael

[Addiena]

Which means Arthas was never headed for the maw until Uther stepped in, technically Arthas was never Undead, but was rather changed by Frostmourne and the Armour and became the Lich King upon donning the Helm.

It puts him in an odd position since by rights he was both undead and living.

[Azerate]

Many people have very binary thinking patterns, and that shows once again. Either someone is irredeemable, or a good guy, there's nothing in-between.

[Minikin]

I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead

i think it was based off the the short story novel. edge of the night.

however im guessing as we go into this expansion this will be ironed out with more clarity if all undead end up there or not.
IF, it turns out to be correct, that all evil ones go to revendreth first as a last chance then i guess we can say that the Arbiter doesnt chuck u in to the maw just cuz you are undead. Proof of this would be Mograine and kael. But we dont really even have enough info on that to 100% say that. Maybe like 90% confirmed...

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Which means Arthas was never headed for the maw until Uther stepped in, technically Arthas was never Undead, but was rather changed by Frostmourne and the Armour and became the Lich King upon donning the Helm.

It puts him in an odd position since by rights he was both undead and living.

Well id say he was totally undead. Given that he literally cut his heart out. You go to attack it where he nearly entraps us and Tirion in Icecrown. Cant remember the quest name but it was pretty cool. Cuz in the end there is nearly a Pirates of the Carribean moment where his heart is stabbed to weaken him so we can get away.

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Many people have very binary thinking patterns, and that shows once again. Either someone is irredeemable, or a good guy, there's nothing in-between.

Exactly what im trying to avoid honestly. Like i can understand waiting and hoping for a certain cause someone has been rooting for. But honestly, the shadowlands having literal 5 zones beyond Oribos should be proof enough to people that it isnt as simple as Good and Bad.

[GreenJesus]

i think it was based off the the short story novel. edge of the night.

however im guessing as we go into this expansion this will be ironed out with more clarity if all undead end up there or not.
IF, it turns out to be correct, that all evil ones go to revendreth first as a last chance then i guess we can say that the Arbiter doesnt chuck u in to the maw just cuz you are undead. Proof of this would be Mograine and kael. But we dont really even have enough info on that to 100% say that. Maybe like 90% confirmed...

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Well id say he was totally undead. Given that he literally cut his heart out. You go to attack it where he nearly entraps us and Tirion in Icecrown. Cant remember the quest name but it was pretty cool. Cuz in the end there is nearly a Pirates of the Carribean moment where his heart is stabbed to weaken him so we can get away.

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Exactly what im trying to avoid honestly. Like i can understand waiting and hoping for a certain cause someone has been rooting for. But honestly, the shadowlands having literal 5 zones beyond Oribos should be proof enough to people that it isnt as simple as Good and Bad.

Also, I think Blizzard said at some point these 5 zones are only a small sliver of the shadowlands realms. Right?

[Minikin]

Also, I think Blizzard said at some point these 5 zones are only a small sliver of the shadowlands realms. Right?

yessir. the word they used in blizzcon was infinite i think. And i guess it makes sense. Given that all the dead in the cosmos are headed there [except titans and void things i guess? not sure] it would have to be basically THE cosmos just....dead?

[Super Dickmann]

You're right that it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong, but it does explicitly mean they're redeemable - if you're fully irredeemable, you'd go straight to the Maw.

Though I'm kind of skeptical of any system where any Kyrian can essentially wait out a person's death that they can astrally sense and then toss them into the Maw to effectively burn in hell with no means of extraction for all time, and there's no way to see this has happened since we only learn it from Uther after he switches sides. Sure, this time it was Arthas, but they could do it to anyone they have a beef with.

I also think the topic itself is beside the point because the in-story judgment of the Arbiter is different from the out of story moral judgment of the players.

[TickTickTick]

I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead

I think Sylvanas went into the Maw simply because of the proximity of the veil between life and death. After all, Torghast is very close to Icecrown Citadel. I guess because of that her soul was just sucked into the Maw by default (Frostmourne being destroyed and countless souls being released could also mess the things up), not letting the Kyrian a chance to fetch her. Keep in mind that in Arthas' case, Devos and Uther specifically waited for him to die so they were able to intercept his soul instantly.

As for the souls being released out of Frostmourne, since it's Maw magic that powered it, I guess all of the souls went straight into the Maw after they were released (you can even see it visually as them floating above ICC where the veil and Torghast is) and Sylvanas soul just joined the stream of souls when she killed herself by default. Then the Jailer felt a powerful soul came and decided to use it for his own needs.

[Varodoc]

That's my fear too. You can 100% bet your ass that if Sylvanas was destined to go to Revendreth, then her annoying fanboys will start spamming threads like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, "Teldrassil was fine".

I mean, that hasn't even been revealed yet. and some are already starting clickbait threads like "Sylvanas was tricked, she was always good!".

[Raisei]

Well, of course. Revendreth is the Warcraft counterpart to the christian idea of Purgatory, which is not a precursor to hell, but to heaven.

You are send there if you have done bad things, but there is a chance for redemption. The price for that is usually suffering. In christianity you literally burn your sins away, in Revendreth you feed Vampires or something (I have not read all spoilers)

[Newname1234567890]

Revendreth is where inherently good characters that did bad things go to to get redeemed.
That's honestly what I believe. And that's why we're seeing Kael'thas and Garrosh there. They were genuinely good people before you know what happened.

Not inherently good just not inherently evil. There's a difference.

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That's my fear too. You can 100% bet your ass that if Sylvanas was destined to go to Revendreth, then her annoying fanboys will start spamming threads like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, "Teldrassil was fine".

I mean, that hasn't even been revealed yet. and some are already starting clickbait threads like "Sylvanas was tricked, she was always good!".

She was sent to the maw once already before she engineered a global war to maximize causalities. I don't think that's redeemed her at all.

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I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead

No it's because all the murdering. A death Knight arrives in maldaxxus

[Eapoe]

That's my fear too. You can 100% bet your ass that if Sylvanas was destined to go to Revendreth, then her annoying fanboys will start spamming threads like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, "Teldrassil was fine".

I mean, that hasn't even been revealed yet. and some are already starting clickbait threads like "Sylvanas was tricked, she was always good!".

Part of being able to be redeemed is the causality of the actions. For instance, Arthas, who some people are clamoring for a redemption arc, did terrible things with no regret or sense of greater good. He destroyed his own home without trying to save a single person. He also sold out his own people at the shores of Northrend before leaving Magni to die after claiming a cursed sword. He killed innocents and knowingly threw away his own soul for power and vengeance.
Sylvanas maybe thinks she was doing the greater good. She was murdering people to gain power to overthrow the bonds of mortality, which would make everyone equal and free from the fear of death. To her, she could have believed that once the cycle is broken then all the souls she killed would be released and free. She could very well believe she is doing good in the end with an ends justify the means mentality.
Between the two, Arthas looks like he should definitely be in The Maw while Sylvanas maybe has a chance for redemption if she could be made to see her sins and repent before moving on.
That all said, I fully believe Sylvanas actions are evil, but there is a chance that she was tricked, or as she died she witnessed The Maw as Uther had thrown Arthas there with four judgement and broke the cycle, which then empowered the Jailer.

[Varodoc]

Part of being able to be redeemed is the causality of the actions. For instance, Arthas, who some people are clamoring for a redemption arc, did terrible things with no regret or sense of greater good. He destroyed his own home without trying to save a single person. He also sold out his own people at the shores of Northrend before leaving Magni to die after claiming a cursed sword. He killed innocents and knowingly threw away his own soul for power and vengeance.
Sylvanas maybe thinks she was doing the greater good. She was murdering people to gain power to overthrow the bonds of mortality, which would make everyone equal and free from the fear of death. To her, she could have believed that once the cycle is broken then all the souls she killed would be released and free. She could very well believe she is doing good in the end with an ends justify the means mentality.
Between the two, Arthas looks like he should definitely be in The Maw while Sylvanas maybe has a chance for redemption if she could be made to see her sins and repent before moving on.
That all said, I fully believe Sylvanas actions are evil, but there is a chance that she was tricked, or as she died she witnessed The Maw as Uther had thrown Arthas there with four judgement and broke the cycle, which then empowered the Jailer.

No. If you are taking intentions into account, Arthas also thought he was doing things for the greater good, since Blizzard stated he wanted to unite the world against the Legion and create a society without war or injustice.

Your bias for Sylvanas is showing hard.

[Thage]

Revendreth is where inherently good characters that did bad things go to to get redeemed.
That's honestly what I believe. And that's why we're seeing Kael'thas and Garrosh there. They were genuinely good people before you know what happened.

Kel'Thuzad's presence in Maldraxxus suggests that, no, everyone who committed evil goes to Revendreth for penance, and it's those who fail or refuse this last chance that are sent to the Maw. Going directly to the Maw is not the intended way of things unless you are so wholly, unfathomably evil that there is no chance whatsoever you can be shown the error of your ways over however long the Venthyr feel it's necessary for you to carry the stone upon which your life's sins are inscribed.

Why Sylvanas went directly to the Maw the first time around is an open question, but the current direction of the story implies with typical Blizzard subtlety that the Jailer had, by then, already begun setting things in motion and she was stolen away while en route to the Arbiter for judgment. It is very likely that Devos and Uther throwing Arthas directly into the Maw is what gave the Jailer the idea to bypass the system entirely and find a mortal agent to do just that, leading to his deal with Sylvanas and the ensuing anima drought throughout the Shadowlands.

[Eapoe]

No. If you are taking intentions into account, Arthas also thought he was doing things for the greater good, since Blizzard stated he wanted to unite the world against the Legion and create a society without war or injustice.

Your bias for Sylvanas is showing hard.

I don’t care for Sylvanas one way or the other, I care about people being hypocritical.
Arthas purges his home before the Legion was an afterthought to him. He betrayed his soldiers and Magni seeking a sword in his quest for vengeance against Mal’ganis. Those are the points I’m making. Arthas’ world would have also been a world of slaves under his control. That isn’t selfless, it’s selfish and still puts him above all others. The only good being done is for himself.
Sylvanas, who also did evil things, has shown she is doing what she does to free people from the shackles of life and death.
Keep in mind, I never once stated she should be redeemed. I simply tried pointing out if Blizzard went that way it makes a hell of a lot more sense than Arthas getting a redemption arc.
As for your blatant attempt at deflection by stating I have some kind of bias, I just feel I should point out I am indifferent to Sylvanas. She’s just there to drive the story and I don’t feel strongly you one way or the other. Arthas, on the other hand, is a really well written tragic story of a villain and should remain that way, as any kind of redemption just ruins and cheapens everything he was and becomes character assassination.

[Varodoc]

I don’t care for Sylvanas one way or the other, I care about people being hypocritical.
Arthas purges his home before the Legion was an afterthought to him. He betrayed his soldiers and Magni seeking a sword in his quest for vengeance against Mal’ganis. Those are the points I’m making. Arthas’ world would have also been a world of slaves under his control. That isn’t selfless, it’s selfish and still puts him above all others. The only good being done is for himself.
Sylvanas, who also did evil things, has shown she is doing what she does to free people from the shackles of life and death.
Keep in mind, I never once stated she should be redeemed. I simply tried pointing out if Blizzard went that way it makes a hell of a lot more sense than Arthas getting a redemption arc.
As for your blatant attempt at deflection by stating I have some kind of bias, I just feel I should point out I am indifferent to Sylvanas. She’s just there to drive the story and I don’t feel strongly you one way or the other. Arthas, on the other hand, is a really well written tragic story of a villain and should remain that way, as any kind of redemption just ruins and cheapens everything he was and becomes character assassination.

Arthas, who also did evil things, has shown he is doing what he does to unite Azeroth against the Legion and create what he perceives as a good and peaceful world.

You do have an obvious bias for Sylvanas, because the exact argument you are using for Sylvanas can be used for Arthas too.

[Aucald]

Another outcome that can occur in Revendreth is that a condemned soul can become one of the Venthyr, not found worthy of another afterlife scenario but also not worthy of a one-way trip to the Maw. All the major Venthyr you encounter in Revendreth are former criminals and miscreants, whose "sins" are expunged in the form of a sinstone, and given a new identity and form as Venthyr, using their inside knowledge of their own crimes and reformation to continue the process on new souls who arrive in need of castigation and reform.