Arthas was bad before he even touched frostmourne...

[Zmagoslav]

He was a spoiled brat all along.

Stratholme might have been the right decision, but out of wrong motivations. His entire campaign escalated because he was out for glory.
So... how do you guys justify what he did in northrend?

[Azerate]

Even if genocide is logically beneficial, it's never "the right thing to do". Can't believe the shit some people are spouting on this forum.

[Flurryfang]

Its kinda sad, how Blizzard have a tendency to dig up dead characters, literally, from the grave who already had more than their fill.

The story of Arthas was fine, it had a good starting, middle and end. Redeption is not needed, as it would just feel like an unnecessary addition to his already concluded story.

[Eapoe]

Love all the people stating Stratholme was the right decision.
He never bothered trying to quarantine people. He never tried helping those who were sick, or better yet, helping those who appeared completely fine.
What did he do? He took his troops and marched in and slaughtered innocent people. The right thing to do would have been to section off the town, have people remain in their homes, and then end those who turned.
Someone in this thread made a comment about how the majority would have been lost, but with other means there still could have been some who could have been saved.
Someone else also mentioned Uther and Jaina being with him, and they even stated it was wrong and noticed how he wouldn’t listen to reason.
His actions are comparable to Sylvanas burning of Teldrassil. They both killed innocent men, women, and children, and burned their home. At least Sylvanas’ plan served a purpose, to feed her power while attempting to demoralize the enemy during a war. Arthas was “well, some people got zombified off this grain, better kill everyone.” People say he’s not able to be redeemed because he didn’t do what he did for the greater good, he did it because he was a proud, vengeful prick that didn’t try to save anyone while killing and being the cause of a multitude of innocent people's deaths.

[Alteiry]

Arthas didn't even entertain the possibility of another solution to Stratholme. He jumped straight to mass murder of his own citizens without as much as an ounce of hesitation. Whether or not there were other solutions to Stratholme is irrelevant - the fact that he never even imagined another solution is reason alone for him to rot in the Maw.

But the real problem was that it didn't stop there - instead of staying behind to help his people recover from the plague, his disobeyed a royal decree from his own king and led the king's men on a suicidal crusade to an inhospitable continent just to sate his own vainglory. Mal'Ganis didn't pose a threat to Lordaeron anymore. Ergo, he didn't chase down Mal'Ganis because of the suffering inflicted against his people, he chased him down because he, PERSONALLY, felt slighted. That Northrend was a death sentence to his men didn't matter to him either - they were expendable, their lives worth no consideration at all. All that mattered was to destroy Mal'Ganis for wounding his pride.

At the end he even turned his back on the Light by embracing Frostmourne, showing us that his faith as a paladin was just a farce.

The lives of his civilian subjects didn't matter to him. The lives of his soldiers didn't matter to him. Lordaeron never mattered to him, besides as an extension of himself. If destroying all of Lordaeron would have been necessary for him to kill Mal'Ganis, Arthas would have done so - personally. Down to the very last man, woman and child.

Not even the Light mattered to him. The only thing that mattered to Arthas Menethil, was Arthas Menethil. And that's why his soul deserves to rot in the Maw.

[Hellobolis]

Even if genocide is logically beneficial, it's never "the right thing to do". Can't believe the shit some people are spouting on this forum.

it's never the right thing but it can easily be the least bad choice you have. and it obviously worked very well to make the character compelling :P

[kaelix1]

There was a chance the whole city hadn't gotten to consume the corrupted grain, which is what makes Strattholme morally ambiguous rather than strictly right or wrong. I agree with the sentiment otherwise.

It was impossible to find out who was infected and who was not, Malganis was in the city and teleporting people around, they didn't have enough time and manpower to deal with an army of undead, didn't have time to send for news and wait, he was literally in a dammable situation, a veteran like Uther and an intellectual like Jainna should have seen and analyzed the situation faster than Arthas, yet they let all the burden on him and run like cowards while judging him, the only sin in stratholme was how Arthas killed them, hack and slash was not a death they deserved

[Sunderella]

Maybe had he died before getting his hands on Frostmourne he would have end up in Revendreth, but he died as the Lich King and by that time he had a pretty big bodycount. He belongs to the Maw.

[Mic_128]

First of all, they were in a very dire situation, he saw what happened in Hearthglen, people turning into undead and began eating their own families and families had to kill them. Uther did not see what Arthas saw, Arthas was young and inexperienced for such situation(This is also why I don't think princes should be sent to battlefield as commanders but that is going off topic), he was too passionate and hot headed, he did not want his own people to turn into zombies and then eat their own families.

Still, none of that gives him the right to disband the Order of the Silver Hand.

Also, he did not have any priests and paladins on his side according to lore

There was himself and Uther. 2 Paladins that could have helped heal/cure some. Instead, he told Uther to bugger off, then slaughtered the city.

Uther was full of pride when he admonished Arthas, he should have been more patient and try to get through to Arthas.

He was ordered to leave. He had to.

Same is true for Jaina, both Jaina and Uther could have calmed him down but of them chose to abandon him.

He made it clear he was going to do it regardless, and neither wanted to taint themselves by slaughtering civilians, regardless of their infection. Hell, Uther even pushed for there being another way.

A veteran like Uther and an intellectual like Jainna should have seen and analyzed the situation faster than Arthas, yet they let all the burden on him and run like cowards while judging him

They were barely there before Arthas was sending them away, not even bothering to explain anything about what was going on.

And yes Uther was a Vetran, and Jaina is not just intelligent, but a mage of Dalaran. Perhaps he should have listened to them instead of telling them to 'get out of his sight' when they didn't immediately agree to kill everything.

[FelPlague]

...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.

The culling of strathome was a need, it was a hard choice, but it was a choice that needed to be made. it was not evil, it was painful, but it was good, he put them out of their misery, he killed them painlessly and quick, before they could kill themselves through endless pain.

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Before he touched Frostmourne he was a vengeful, manipulative asshole. He hired mercenaries to burn his own men's ship and their way home and then had his men kill the very mercenaries HE hired. He also killed basically an entire city full of people, where surely many people could have been saved, but he took an extremely radical and vile approach to a grim problem, evidently being more concerned with denying Mal'ganis than saving innocent lives.

After he touched Frostmourne he became a monster, as the blade consumed his soul and all good that remained within him was extinguished. But he definitely was not an entirely innocent or good person before either.

No, literally none of them could be saved, that is the horror of it, the best option was to give them a quick painless death.

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No the right thing to do would be kill those who turned only. Its not like everyone ate the bread that day. He just smells fresh bread and just says welp better kill everyone.

There is no way to tell who did and who didnt, and all it takes is 1 undead for it to spread once again.

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The most efficient answer (and only with the power of hindsight) isn't necessary the right one. That's why Uther and Jaina where against it. They knew that even if the couldn't find a cure for the plague, with the Knights of the Silver Hand and the magic of Jaina they could have beaten the zombies.

However, the city full of civilians would all be tortured, eaten alive, and then forced to consume their friends and family.
All while building a city of many undead, enough to even take down the silver hand.
So arthas took out the population before they would turn undead. and to give them a quick painless death.


people who say that the culling was a bad thing, have not read the story of when anubarak showed kel'thuzad around naxrammas, and the horror of undead turning.

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No the plague hadn't even started turning people they didn't even realized something was wrong. What you see in the Culling of Stratholme dungeon is not what happens in the lore.

The wheat just arrived and the first batches of bread were being eaten no one had even turned yet before Arthas started killing people. Saying everyone had eaten the wheat and were doomed is nonsense. Arthas murdered hundreds of people he could have saved if he tried.

No, he literally could not have, that is the issue, yes many were not infected, but how do you know who? How do you know the wheat they just had is the infected? and the last shipment was not alos infected? They had seen people turn after minutes of eating it, up to days of eating it.
They do not know how it works, or how it spreads, all they know is these creatures become m9onsters and will kill and infect the entire city, into an unstoppable army.

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The problem with Stratholme wasn't the killing, it was the lack of trying to find another way. If he had tried to find another way to deal with it, even if he failed, he would have kept Jaina and Uther as allies. Instead he put his pride out front and said its his way or the highway, killing your own people should be the last option rather then the only one you mention.

Trying to find another way, what other way? What would you reccomend hm?

[kaelix1]

And yes Uther was a Vetran, and Jaina is not just intelligent, but a mage of Dalaran. Perhaps he should have listened to them instead of telling them to 'get out of his sight' when they didn't immediately agree to kill everything.

They offer no solution except 'there's got to be some other way', again, they had no time to do anything, Malganis was pulling the strings from the town, Stratholme was doomed, now, don't get me wrong, Arthas should be judge without a doubt for Stratholme, I'm not debating that, what annoys me is people behaving like there was another solution or time to do something else than killing them, Arthas had no choice, dammable situation where he was abandoned to take the burden

[Deneios]

Uther intervened to exact his judgement (vengeance) because he was unable to let go and ascend by the normal way. Arthas would probably been sorted to revendreth or even kyrian if he is able to let go of the past and his deeds.
I bet we have to fight Uther in a dungeon and smack some sense into him and go save Arthas from the maw as redeeming arc for Uther. This is due to Uther is going against his own teachings. Vengeance is not justice and forgetting that makes them no better than the orcs they fought before.

[LorDC]

Malganis was pulling the strings from the town

There-was-another-sollution people always seem to conveniently forget about him. Yeah, Arthas certainly could afford to sit around and try to save the city while Malganis was running around, gathering all the zombies and infecting another towns.

[Raelbo]

...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.

Arthas's vice was his pride, not that he was "bad".

The Culling of Stratholme wasn't about him being mallicious at all. It was about his inability to trust in the judgement of others (Jaina, Uther). That is why the event is such an iconic tragedy in the world of Azeroth. He was a good man who loved his people and wanted to do the right thing. But he was played like a fiddle by Mal'ganis, and once he started down that path, there was only one way it led until it consumed him. A bit like ol' Darth Vader I'd say.

[goldlock]

Even if genocide is logically beneficial, it's never "the right thing to do". Can't believe the shit some people are spouting on this forum.

I mean... if the alliance just flat out killed every orc in warcraft 1 all of their problems concerning the horde would of been solved and they would of been allowed to war between each other in peace.

Showing mercy is how you get the burning legion.

[Zuben]

It was impossible to find out who was infected and who was not, Malganis was in the city and teleporting people around, they didn't have enough time and manpower to deal with an army of undead, didn't have time to send for news and wait, he was literally in a dammable situation, a veteran like Uther and an intellectual like Jainna should have seen and analyzed the situation faster than Arthas, yet they let all the burden on him and run like cowards while judging him, the only sin in stratholme was how Arthas killed them, hack and slash was not a death they deserved

Yeah, I was agreeing with you about the sentiment. Arthas had just witnessed people around him in Hearthglen turn from friendly militia into frenzied ghouls in mere seconds, something Uther and Jaina didn't get to see for themselves and therefore could only think there was room to save people because moral decency demanded it. Arthas knew there are no perceptible symptoms for the plague until it pops, so anyone suspected of eating the grain was a potential sudden danger to them. Allow enough people to turn and they'd be overwhelmed, putting greater Lordaeron in danger.

Regardless, the event was what broke Arthas. After Strattholme he started to lose his connection to the Light. When fighting in Northrend his hammer no longer emanates Light's energy, suggesting he's pretty much just a warrior at that point. Even if his choice with Strattholme was soundly justified it was morally abhorrent. So technically he made a sound choice, at the expense of his own mental stability.

Knowing all I know, Arthas was not bad before he grabbed Frostmourne. Just a fallible human with the weight of a nation on his shoulders put into an impossible situation. All by the Lich King's design.

[Kumorii]

Before he touched Frostmourne he was a vengeful, manipulative asshole. He hired mercenaries to burn his own men's ship and their way home and then had his men kill the very mercenaries HE hired. He also killed basically an entire city full of people, where surely many people could have been saved, but he took an extremely radical and vile approach to a grim problem, evidently being more concerned with denying Mal'ganis than saving innocent lives.

After he touched Frostmourne he became a monster, as the blade consumed his soul and all good that remained within him was extinguished. But he definitely was not an entirely innocent or good person before either.

This... if culling was the right thing to do or not is not even the question... it's his stance towards and his attitude. He had 0 issues with it... which even if it was the right thing to do isn't really qualities of a good person.

The fact that frostmourne "corrupted" him has little bearing because it was his character and actions that let him be corrupted. He sought it out for no reason except his own personal gratifications.

This is why the story was great for me because it's not the same old goody person being corrupted into something they are not.

[Mic_128]

They offer no solution except 'there's got to be some other way', again, they had no time to do anything, Malganis was pulling the strings from the town

There-was-another-sollution people always seem to conveniently forget about him. Yeah, Arthas certainly could afford to sit around and try to save the city while Malganis was running around, gathering all the zombies and infecting another towns.

Arthas had never encountered or even seen Mal'ganis until after he had already started destroying homes to flush out and kill villagers.

[Tarba]

Uther, to Arthas: Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs.

Arthas: I will have revenge on Mal'ganis! I will hunt him to the ends of the earth! I'll do anything, or pay any price!

If only he had used the word "justice" and not "revenge". He would have been a great paladin. It's probably something you learn when you reach level 10. To bad for him.

[Unholyground]

Arthas had the right stuff to be manipulated from the beginning, I honestly think being trapped within himself was probably the worst torture he could endure. The Helm of Domination has dual meanings, while it allows the user to Dominate the Scourge it also causes the wearer to be influenced and Dominated by the Jailor. Clearly this is where they are going with the story, the helm and the sword are directly connected to the Jailor and the Maw. Arthas was essentially the avatar for the Jailor in the mortal realms.