Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Alroxas]

Like everyone else does. Start small. ... Yes, it takes a lot of time, but this is how the pugging scene goes,

Again, did you not read the full post. I talk about the cyclic "grind":

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up. Which normally is fine but to a player who has limited time to play, higher M+ may be inaccessible to them.

And then I pointed out the problem, where a player with limited time can't easily achieve the high r.io score necessary to be accepted into higher keys. For a soloish player getting to a 1k+ score might take weeks (perhaps even months) but for those with a guild/community or even a pre-existing seasonal score from r.io, they could do it much faster.

[T-34]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

Yes, it takes time. But it is easy enough to do if you are somewhat competent.

You can't force people to play with you. You can only make yourself desirable to the leader of a group. And it is not you who decides what is desirable, the group leader decides what is desirable or not.
At the end of the day you either comply with the demands of the one who makes the group or you make your own group.

Raider.io is the best tool so far in the history of WoW in order to filter out people that you don't want to play with.

- - - Updated - - -

And then I pointed out the problem, where a player with limited time can't easily achieve the high r.io score necessary to be accepted into higher keys. For a soloish player getting to a 1k+ score might take weeks (perhaps even months) but for those with a guild/community or even a pre-existing seasonal score from r.io, they could do it much faster.

That you don't have a guild/friends/community/time is a YOU-problem, not a ME-problem.
When I make a group I decide whom to invite, and I don't care about your problems.

[Firebert]

A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+.

Agree with this line of argument, as it was the same before LFR. Once again, the community can't be trusted and it had to be taken away from them.

"A player with limited play time AND no group support (a guild) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in raids. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a tier because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing tier's achievement."

That you don't have a guild/friends/community/time is a YOU-problem, not a ME-problem.
When I make a group I decide whom to invite, and I don't care about your problems.

It's disappointing to see the attitude of an active MMO player not care about the other players around him.

You miss the point lazy players deserv this, i care about like minded ppl that put in the effort. I did 4 hc runs this week to gear my guilds 400ilvl alts for SL with my 2 mains that are 484ilvl and 481ilvl geared and dont need jackshit from mythic or hc, no problem but some one who refuses to do 20 keys in like waht 7 months? of a patch now and then complain about R.io no man they deserv all the declines they get.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Wuusah]

That's the glaring issue with raider io, it doesn't have a way to record individual performance. Honestly, the playerbase would be much better off we just alienated it and started using warcraftlogs. Atleast that way you would be able to record players parses, interrupts, CC and efficiency. I think what annoys me the most is how accepting people are of raider io even with all its issues. It's far from perfect, yet people follow it like the gospel and don't invite people unless they have a specific score.

So I've been fortunate to have some nice guildies give me a shot at 15's and we +1, +2'd them and I wasn't the lowest dps. I only have 2-3 15's done total this season, but someone looking at my score would likely assume I paid for a carry. They don't see that I tally up 25+ interrupts. They don't see that I have over a minute in CC on mobs from capacitor totem and sundering. There's so much unknown and unseen that raider io doesn't record and it's upsetting that people can be so content with it.

I shouldn't have to grind some my score up. Raider io should record how well I perform in dungeons on an individual level and record that data. Using a team score to reflect an individual score is by far, the most stupid concept I've ever seen. It's on the same level as gear score as OP mentioned. Unfortunately there isn't much else out there other than warcraftlogs, but people can't be bothered to run warcraftlogs each time they do a dungeon.

It's not a glaring issue. It's not a guarantee to get a good player but it's a quick estimation of what to expect. If someone finds a way to make warcraftlogs infos compact in addon form right in the player's tooltip, then people will gladly switch over, i'm sure. Until then people will use rio because it's a quick way to get some general information. Nobody wants to inspect 30 players to make their perfect group for a +15.

And yes, you should have to grind your score up. If you perform well in a +14 dungeon then rio will show that you finished that +14 dungeon. Even if your score is low, if I go into just this one dungeon, I can see that you have experience in it and still consider picking you. But if you have no experience in a dungeon and performed well in ANOTHER dungeon, well that's meaningless. What does it help that you're good in Atal if you are clueless in SotS? If you are so good as you think you are, then you shouldn't have any problems getting your rio score up in some lower level keys first.

[Garymorilix]

Again, did you not read the full post. I talk about the cyclic "grind":



And then I pointed out the problem, where a player with limited time can't easily achieve the high r.io score necessary to be accepted into higher keys. For a soloish player getting to a 1k+ score might take weeks (perhaps even months) but for those with a guild/community or even a pre-existing seasonal score from r.io, they could do it much faster.

This is simply untrue.

You also have a key every single week. All you need is 1 run of each dungeon. The probability that if you only do your own key lets say 5 times a week and get always the exact same dungeons every time is so low that it is near impossible.

Even if you don't time a key you get score. So let's say you did a 10 last week, now you have a 9 Tol Dagor.
Boom, you do it, you got a score for a 9 Tol Dagor and now you can also run a 10 Atal.
Whether you make it or not you either got a 9 or 11 Siege.
You do that you get another key, ect.

Your waiting time is minimal as you're making the groups (especially if you're a tank) and you slowly get score for everything.
After you have some kind of score for everything you can start looking for specific dungeons to make them better.
For example, you have an untimed 9 Freehold, now you can look for 9-10-11 Freeholds to improve that score.

It's not hard.

If you run 1 dungeon per day, let's say with queue it takes 1 hour, that is still 7 dungeons per week which is already more than half the dungeon roster.
Even if you get duplicates you can get score for all dungeons in 2 weeks tops.

It's not time consuming.

You are just lazy.

[Lubefist]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

I resubbed in 8.3 after skipping last two expansions. Pretty much no friends left, guild dead, 0 RIO etc. and I managed to pug my way into 15+ without too much hassle.

All these limited play time (I have job, partner, friends etc. too), no group support or previous seson RIO scores are just lazy excuses.

[Alroxas]

baby steps. If you got a high ilvl from other sources and have no dungeon experience, then you start small and work your way up.

Seems like I have to quote myself again so that people can see that I do talk about the "baby steps"

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up.

You having limited time is your own personal problem

True, although I was speaking towards the case of the poster who could get +15 score easy in 10 hours. Granted they likely have guildmate/teammate support and/or a high r.io score from a previous season so getting into groups is also easier.

The case I made is for the not so lucky. Furthermore as a season proceeds, r.io becomes a greater obstacle to progress.

At season start, everyone's score is reset. Sure if you had a high r.io score from previous season, you're likely to have an edge over someone who doesn't but by mid-season, players should have decent scores. Regardless, most players at season start are more flexible to inviting players. There's less bias based on r.io.

Now imagine a player who arrives mid-season without a previous r.io season score. It's now that much more difficult for that person to grind up. Yes, players at lower keys will probably take a chance at someone with no/low score BUT not as likely at the higher keys. Additionally, since r.io allows toon linking, that adds another layer, as group leaders might take another "low score" toon but one that has a main that has a much higher score.

You're right that nobody is entitled to a spot but I'm just underlining the issues that r.io creates through how the community uses r.io.

Personally, I do look at r.io scores when I'm leading groups but I also look at their gear, raid history, and more importantly, I talk to them to make sure the entire group is on the same page as to what our goals are for that M+ run. Are we just doing the +15 for the weekly chest? Are we pushing for a better key/score? What route are we likely to do (if someone doesn't have MDT)?

[Kaver]

And then I pointed out the problem, where a player with limited time can't easily achieve the high r.io score.

That's not a problem at all. That's how it should be. Not all content should be easily accessible. If you don't want to put in any effort to do M+, then go do something else. Getting into M+ doesn't require much time, but it does require some effort. And if you're too lazy to do what is necessary then that's just too bad for you. But that doesn't make it a general problem.

The case I made is for the not so lucky.

It's not about being lucky. It's about being social. Find a good guild and do m+ with them. It doesn't require much time investment at all.

[crakerjack]

It's not a glaring issue. It's not a guarantee to get a good player but it's a quick estimation of what to expect. If someone finds a way to make warcraftlogs infos compact in addon form right in the player's tooltip, then people will gladly switch over, i'm sure. Until then people will use rio because it's a quick way to get some general information. Nobody wants to inspect 30 players to make their perfect group for a +15.

And yes, you should have to grind your score up. If you perform well in a +14 dungeon then rio will show that you finished that +14 dungeon. Even if your score is low, if I go into just this one dungeon, I can see that you have experience in it and still consider picking you. But if you have no experience in a dungeon and performed well in ANOTHER dungeon, well that's meaningless. What does it help that you're good in Atal if you are clueless in SotS? If you are so good as you think you are, then you shouldn't have any problems getting your rio score up in some lower level keys first.

That's not fixing the problem though. Raider io and people following it like the gospel is the issue. What if I don't need anything from a couple dungeons? Normally you wouldn't expect someone to do them because there isn't anything relevant to them there, but for the sake of raider io, you have to in order to have an acceptable score. Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill. How can you tell if someone performs well in a +14? Because their GROUP score says so?

The only reason people use it is because it's the only system commonly available that doesn't require players to run programs on the side like warcraftlogs.

[Nayami]

If anything the game itself should have this implemented internally. If it actually becomes disabled then we are just gonna go back to seeing iLvl only and having to armory people with five accented characters when we need to make decent groups.

[Very rare pepe]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

Get group support, if you aren't able to make friends or join a guild that suits you, perhaps MMORPG's aren't your thing?

And if you have limited play time, perhaps once again, a different game would be better for you. I don't want to come off as a knobhead but if you have limited playtime and are not able to get group support then why would you ever think you should be invited to the more challenging end game content that is played by a group?

[Garymorilix]

That's not fixing the problem though. Raider io and people following it like the gospel is the issue. What if I don't need anything from a couple dungeons? Normally you wouldn't expect someone to do them because there isn't anything relevant to them there, but for the sake of raider io, you have to in order to have an acceptable score. Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill. How can you tell if someone performs well in a +14? Because their GROUP score says so?

The only reason people use it is because it's the only system commonly available that doesn't require players to run programs on the side like warcraftlogs.

You could have 3 milions Freehold runs on you and I wouldn't care about you when I make my Shrine group for obvious reasons.

It doesn't matter whether you need an item or not from a certain dungeon. 15+ runs are not made for items.
Your M+ score reflects on your dedication for playing the dungeons.

[Kaver]

Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill.

Stop saying this bullsh*t. Of course it has. A player with a rio score of 3k will most likely be better than player with a rio score of 1k. Not always, but most of the times.

- - - Updated - - -

What if I don't need anything from a couple dungeons? Normally you wouldn't expect someone to do them because there isn't anything relevant to them there

But that's it. Then you're not playing M+ because you enjoy it. You're only doing it for the loot. And I don't want to play with people like you. So I thank god for Rio so I can avoid you.

[VinceVega]

Seems like I have to quote myself again so that people can see that I do talk about the "baby steps"





True, although I was speaking towards the case of the poster who could get +15 score easy in 10 hours. Granted they likely have guildmate/teammate support and/or a high r.io score from a previous season so getting into groups is also easier.

The case I made is for the not so lucky. Furthermore as a season proceeds, r.io becomes a greater obstacle to progress.

At season start, everyone's score is reset. Sure if you had a high r.io score from previous season, you're likely to have an edge over someone who doesn't but by mid-season, players should have decent scores. Regardless, most players at season start are more flexible to inviting players. There's less bias based on r.io.

Now imagine a player who arrives mid-season without a previous r.io season score. It's now that much more difficult for that person to grind up. Yes, players at lower keys will probably take a chance at someone with no/low score BUT not as likely at the higher keys. Additionally, since r.io allows toon linking, that adds another layer, as group leaders might take another "low score" toon but one that has a main that has a much higher score.

You're right that nobody is entitled to a spot but I'm just underlining the issues that r.io creates through how the community uses r.io.

Personally, I do look at r.io scores when I'm leading groups but I also look at their gear, raid history, and more importantly, I talk to them to make sure the entire group is on the same page as to what our goals are for that M+ run. Are we just doing the +15 for the weekly chest? Are we pushing for a better key/score? What route are we likely to do (if someone doesn't have MDT)?

I don't think it is an issue from raider.io. There will always be something in that lane no matter what you do.

The issue comes from the people themselves not wanting to socialize in an MMO. I help my guildies who don't have the time themselves to push themselves up. I even help their friend. But i sure as hell don't queue my own stone and then take someone with zero experience. Remove raider.io. I don't care tbh. But from my point my controll would get even heavier as i would only take someone with me who has the 15+ achivment done. As there would be no other way to see if he is even able to finish the key.

Find a guild or a community. Ask for help. If you ONLY do pugs... yes it will take you forever. And right so. You don't want to put in the effort everyone else did. Even if you came late into the expansion.
Like 99% of the problems in this forum it is a void problem if people would just jump over their damn shadows and talk to people. Then they also would find out that people ARE willing to help. If they know you a little. We help the worsed players and their friends (not in the guild) get the 15+ achivment. And if they are not good enough we carry them trough. But they have to talk.

[Mitchypoo]

Yea, blizzard needs to get rid of IO or make their own variation of it. What you end up with is people refusing to invite people who are actually qualified for the content and waiting for someone who's overqualified to come along and carry them. I'm not judging the person for going that route because they just want to make sure their key is done in time, but players shouldn't have access to a system that fails to measure individual performance. IO fails miserably IMO because it fails to gauge individual performance, which honestly matters the most. It doesn't factor in interrupting, especially interrupting highest priority spells. It doesn't factor in dispelling, offhealing and worse of all, it doesn't even record your DPS/HPS.

It sucks because there's no other systems out there, so raider io is used as the gold standard when reality is, it's dog shit. It's not even remotely accurate at gauging how well a player plays. It literally does nothing but give you a score based on your team performance. An individual grade, based on a team performance. Fucking dog shit.

Lets remove pvp rating. An individual grade based on a team performance. Fucking dog shit.

[Wuusah]

Now imagine a player who arrives mid-season without a previous r.io season score.

Yes, that's me. I came back to 8.3 in february or march thanks to covid. I had to grind all my essences because I haven't played since 8.0. And I managed to get keystone master with pugs. If people don't invite you then make your own group. You also have a key. Everyone has a key.

You're right that nobody is entitled to a spot but I'm just underlining the issues that r.io creates through how the community uses r.io.

There is no issue. The issue is people with no experience want to skip ahead. There is no issue with rio. It works as intended. It lets you weed out players with no experience. That's the issue you have with it. But it isn't an issue. You just have to go through the "experience curve" like everyone else did. This trying to skip ahead and then complaining about people not letting you is some serious Karen behavior...

Personally, I do look at r.io scores when I'm leading groups but I also look at their gear, raid history, and more importantly, I talk to them to make sure the entire group is on the same page as to what our goals are for that M+ run. Are we just doing the +15 for the weekly chest? Are we pushing for a better key/score? What route are we likely to do (if someone doesn't have MDT)?

Are you inspecting and talking to each and every one of the 30 dps players who try to get into your group?

What if I don't need anything from a couple dungeons?

Then you have the choice to not do that dungeon. Or you just suck it up and do it for the experience of doing that content. You know, playing the game.

Normally you wouldn't expect someone to do them because there isn't anything relevant to them there, but for the sake of raider io, you have to in order to have an acceptable score.

Isn't that a good thing though??? Raider.io gives ALL dungeons purpose, not just those with your BiS items. That's great. It's amazing. Blizzard should make that baseline in the game itself. Well they kinda do with keystone master...

Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill. How can you tell if someone performs well in a +14? Because their GROUP score says so?

the score is not intended to show skill. It shows experience. There is a difference. You don't look at rio to see how skilled a player is. You look at rio to see how experienced a player is. You can be the best player in the world with godlike skill, but if you don't know the dungeon you WILL fail. Not just maybe. Definitely. You will fail. If you skip ahead and do a +15 with no experience in that dungeon, then you WILL fail. You will be a liability to the group. No matter how godlike your skill is. You need experience more than anything else. Show that you have experience and people will take you in their groups.

[Firebert]

[...]if you have limited playtime and are not able to get group support then why would you ever think you should be invited to the more challenging end game content that is played by a group?

Why should character progression by way of more challenging endgame content be gatekept by community members using a 3rd-party tool?

[Garymorilix]

Why should character progression by way of more challenging endgame content be gatekept by community members using a 3rd-party tool?

It isn't.

Push your own key, nobody can reject you.

[willtron]

When I was playing I just made my own M+ groups. If anyone mentioned raider.io I totally disregarded them.

No time for sweaty try-hard gatekeepers.

[T-34]

It's disappointing to see the attitude of an active MMO player not care about the other players around him.

That "argument" is one of the many that bad players use to try to guilt-shame more competent players in to carry them.
Isn't it funny that the better you get at the game the easier you have to find others to play with?

My time is at least as valuable as yours and I won't let myself be guilt-shamed in to carrying people.