Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Wuusah]

Well Arena technically has a personal mmr which requires an individual to grind up and a team mmr. So if someones personal rating is high, chances are they're good. Raider io pretty much neglects the personal rating and focuses on the group rating.

but your personal MMR is gained by doing team content. Your personal MMR will never rise if your team sucks. It's the same as with rio.

Nobody said raider.io is a perfect tool. It simply shows how experienced a player can be expected to be. Expectations won't always match reality. Sometimes people got a higher score than they should have because they cheated the system. It's not a perfect system. No system is. But it's good enough for a quick estimation and that's all that matters. In the really high keys people might start looking at other data. But for +15s rio is good enough.

[TheLucky1]

Well Arena technically has a personal mmr which requires an individual to grind up and a team mmr. So if someones personal rating is high, chances are they're good. Raider io pretty much neglects the personal rating and focuses on the group rating.

As for mythic raiding, yes it's a team effort, but guess what? If you're dying to mechanics and not pulling enough dps, you get benched for someone else who performs better. Raider io is like looking at your last mythic kill and saying "yea, he killed that boss" instead of looking at how much dmg they did and whether or not they did mechanics.

You care too much about details.

Can the system be "cheated" by players getting boosted? Yeah.
How many realistically do that? 1%, maybe 2% that show up in your groupfinder (afaik you can also see how many times someone ran the dungeons you are searching for kinda killing boosted ppl since they usually only run everything once at a high level)

Is raider.io a skill measurement or indicator? Not really.
Does it roughly depict the experience a player has and is that good enough to put together a qualified pug? yes, and that is why so many players use it.

I'm pretty sure that if blizz would ban/erase r.io, pugs would become a total clusterfuck since it has become so easy to get decent gear without doing too much challenging stuff.

I wouldn't go random at all for anything beyond a 10+ without raider.io or a similar tool.

I wish more players would value the idea of ingame contacts and or a guild/community, that's how i got my rio score up and that's also the most enjoyable way to play the game imo.

[crakerjack]

But that on the other hand would f over new and returning players as they have to learn the game again. So the statistic would be heavily favoured towards people playing cosistently. I don't think it would be a favour for the players wanting to get further up... more like another metric i can judge someone.

Well raider io keeps track of your score from prior seasons, so it wouldn't hurt returning players. As for new players, I doubt they'll even get into keystones. Most people I meet who are new to the game are people who casually play and do legacy content.

[Spazzix]

That's not fixing the problem though. Raider io and people following it like the gospel is the issue. What if I don't need anything from a couple dungeons? Normally you wouldn't expect someone to do them because there isn't anything relevant to them there, but for the sake of raider io, you have to in order to have an acceptable score. Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill. How can you tell if someone performs well in a +14? Because their GROUP score says so?

Blunt truth:
raiderio is a tool for big kids. If you're talking about 14s and not doing dungeons because of the loot in them, you arent a big kid.

You say 'zero' (sorry, 'ZERO') reflection of personal skill which makes me question your understanding of numbers, the word 'skill', or English in general. Raiderio absolutely does correlate with skill. If you look at any one data point you might not see the whole picture (even a 7k player can have an untimed 15 if their internet goes out or they troll around hard enough) but IO score is a collection of points and anyone who puts effort into doing dungeons will have a fair set of points. Zero would mean a 7k prot warior and a 1k prot warrior will be equally skillful at tanking my key. I think the angle you're trying to take is, "but the 1k warrior could secretly be the top war in the world on an alt! GOTCHA!!!!" But that is an exceptionally low chance, an anomaly. When analyzing the data for a skill-io relationship that point would get cut out from the other 999999 points where the 1k tank was (shocker incoming) not one of the world's best players in disguise. Or, maybe you're arguing experience (knowing the pulls, damage patterns, optimal offensive cooldown usage, kicks, stops, tricks like LoS and snapping, etc) isn't the same as your raw, uncontrollable skill--that's fine. We'll just use 'skill' to mean 'experience' the same way you use 'zero' to mean 'a lot'.

Edit:
Sorry forgot the tried and true counter about group content not relating to personal skill. At this point though, if you don't see how personal skill ties into timing keys (or burning them), then I have to assume you do all your runs blindfolded so that you may remain willfully ignorant.

If you aren't getting accepted to groups because of your score but whine about not wanting to improve your score, I'd say raider io is actually an even better tool than I thought because it also seems to weed out whiny players who are more concerned with letting everyone know that they are good rather than actually improving and simply showing that they are good.

Io doesnt even punish you for bad runs the way arena rating does for losses. All you have to do is put in effort (yes even on your non meta spec--you're fine for at least +20s).

[VinceVega]

Well raider io keeps track of your score from prior seasons, so it wouldn't hurt returning players. As for new players, I doubt they'll even get into keystones. Most people I meet who are new to the game are people who casually play and do legacy content.

We know different people. 5 of my last mythic (ok...raiding) group have been completly new players.^^

I am still suprised, that there ARE new players at all tbh^^

[crakerjack]

You care too much about details.

Can the system be "cheated" by players getting boosted? Yeah.
How many realistically do that? 1%, maybe 2% that show up in your groupfinder (afaik you can also see how many times someone ran the dungeons you are searching for kinda killing boosted ppl since they usually only run everything once at a high level)

Is raider.io a skill measurement or indicator? Not really.
Does it roughly depict the experience a player has and is that good enough to put together a qualified pug? yes, and that is why so many players use it.

I'm pretty sure that if blizz would ban/erase r.io, pugs would become a total clusterfuck since it has become so easy to get decent gear without doing too much challenging stuff.

I wouldn't go random at all for anything beyond a 10+ without raider.io or a similar tool.

My main point is that raider io could be better. My biggest gripe with it is that people think it's fine and there's no issues with it. There's 100% room for improvement and the devs of raider io should be trying to find a way to gauge more than just a collection of group performances. I never had to worry about raider io because I played with a clique of players who loved parsing 90%+ and doing big damage. We easily did +10 dungeons the first 2 seasons, but people quit and I was forced into pugging. While I didn't have issues getting into +10's in season 2 while pugging, it's almost like season 3 and 4, people would neglect your prior seasons scores. The only difference between a 10 and a 15 is the scaling. There's no additional affixes or any changes. Outside of seasonal affixes, the only difference between a +10 from season 1 and a +15 from season 4 is the health and damage scaling. So it doesn't matter how much experience I have throughout this expansion, people just look at my score for season 4 and judge from there.

[Firebert]

That "argument" is one of the many that bad players use to try to guilt-shame more competent players in to carry them.
Isn't it funny that the better you get at the game the easier you have to find others to play with?

My time is at least as valuable as yours and I won't let myself be guilt-shamed in to carrying people.

My post was less an argument that required a response, and more a social comment.

Additionally, your middle-line line of thinking isn't true; otherwise, we'd see thousands of people M+30ing and almost no-one M+2ing, whereas the idea of a difficulty curve directly contradicts that.

Make your own group if you don't want to go by their party's rules.

Make your own group and nobody can "gatekeep" you from doing anything.

Example: I have an M+8 key and 300 raider.io score: OM:J+5 3-chest, OM:W+7 1-chest, KR+8 1-chest and SoB+10 failed timer.

I start an LFD group as a DPS with an item level requirement of 450. I am item level 455. Would either of you, denizens of raider.io, join this group with a character of item level 450? If not, my point stands. If so, explain why you'd ignore the raider.io addon in this case (as clearing all M+8 dungeons would give a score of around 960).

[Wuusah]

If you aren't getting accepted to groups because of your score but whine about not wanting to improve your score, I'd say raider io is actually an even better tool than I thought because it also seems to weed out whiny players who are more concerned with letting everyone know that they are good rather than actually improving and simply showing that they are good.

In the end it all goes down to this point: It doesn't matter how good you think you are. It only matters how good you can prove you are.

Rio gives you the opportunity to prove that you are as good as you think you are, but like with most things in life, you need to start from the bottom. And like with most things in life, social relations let you skip ahead. The better people you know, the bigger the jump start you get. If you know nobody, you start at the bottom and work hard.

[TheLucky1]

My main point is that raider io could be better. My biggest gripe with it is that people think it's fine and there's no issues with it. There's 100% room for improvement and the devs of raider io should be trying to find a way to gauge more than just a collection of group performances. I never had to worry about raider io because I played with a clique of players who loved parsing 90%+ and doing big damage. We easily did +10 dungeons the first 2 seasons, but people quit and I was forced into pugging. While I didn't have issues getting into +10's in season 2 while pugging, it's almost like season 3 and 4, people would neglect your prior seasons scores. The only difference between a 10 and a 15 is the scaling. There's no additional affixes or any changes. Outside of seasonal affixes, the only difference between a +10 from season 1 and a +15 from season 4 is the health and damage scaling. So it doesn't matter how much experience I have throughout this expansion, people just look at my score for season 4 and judge from there.

The problem is that a ton of ideas discussed for a personal performance rating either have technical limitations, are illogical or could spiral out really fast into degenerate gameplay "to push rating"

There are so many reasons why hps/dps and similar metrics are flawed for something like this, it's a whole can of worms i think the rio devs are not willing to open, and if they do, i wouldn't be surprised if blizzard shut it down fast.

Yes it's not perfect, but it is good enough.

[Alroxas]

Get group support, if you aren't able to make friends or join a guild that suits you, perhaps MMORPG's aren't your thing?

For me personally, I don't have this issue. I'm merely showcasing an example.

I don't want to come off as a knobhead but if you have limited playtime and are not able to get group support then why would you ever think you should be invited to the more challenging end game content that is played by a group?

It's not a binary choice though. Wow caters to an amazingly diverse community from young to old players at different stages of life. Sure maybe a 20 yr college student can spend 80hrs/week in wow but a 40s parent of two might only have a few hours here and there. And it's not impossible for even those with limited time to tackle challenging content. Like the mythic raid teams that do once a week runs and still manage to clear the entire mythic raid before the release of the following tier. Sure they won't be World First or even Realm First, but they can get it done. Are you saying that they shouldn't be able to do that?

- - - Updated - - -

I resubbed in 8.3 after skipping last two expansions. Pretty much no friends left, guild dead, 0 RIO etc. and I managed to pug my way into 15+ without too much hassle.

All these limited play time (I have job, partner, friends etc. too), no group support or previous seson RIO scores are just lazy excuses.

And how long did that take compared the earlier poster that said "You only need to clear +15 once per dungeon and they could do it in 10 hours".

[ID811717]

Like you just said, you won't invite people with a 1500-1700 score to a simple 12-13+ key because they've been bad. Guess what? a 1500-1700 io score is what you get when you've completed every dungeon with a +15 key. The system has made you so jaded that you will only accept overqualified people.

All +15s in time (with 0 seconds to spare ever) gives you 1932 score.
All +14s in time gives you 1752 score.
All +13s in time gives you 1596 score.
All +12s in time gives you 1452 score.

[Wuusah]

Outside of seasonal affixes, the only difference between a +10 from season 1 and a +15 from season 4 is the health and damage scaling. So it doesn't matter how much experience I have throughout this expansion, people just look at my score for season 4 and judge from there.

And rightfully so. Your experience from yesterday is worth more than your experience from a year ago. That's just logic.

Example: I have an M+8 key and 300 raider.io score: OM:J+5 3-chest, OM:W+7 1-chest, KR+8 1-chest and SoB+10 failed timer.

I start an LFD group as a DPS with an item level requirement of 450. I am item level 455. Would either of you, denizens of raider.io, join this group with a character of item level 450? If not, my point stands. If so, explain why you'd ignore the raider.io addon in this case (as clearing all M+8 dungeons would give a score of around 960).

Of course I'd join your group with a 450 ilvl alt. Who gives a damn about rio for +8s? Maybe we time it, maybe we don't, but we all need items and even a not timed run will help with my score if I have none at all for the dungeon on my alt.

[crakerjack]

The problem is that a ton of ideas discussed for a personal performance rating either have technical limitations, are illogical or could spiral out really fast into degenerate gameplay "to push rating"

There are so many reasons why hps/dps and similar metrics are flawed for something like this, it's a whole can of worms i think the rio devs are not willing to open, and if they do, i wouldn't be surprised if blizzard shut it down fast.

Yes it's not perfect, but it is good enough.

It's definitely not good enough. I'd imagine for raider io to record more data, people would just run a program like warcraftlogs while playing. It wouldn't be difficult, just start up wow and then start up logs. That way we can gauge team performance alongside individual performance. It's like looking at the box score of an NBA game. raider io just looks at the score of the two teams and neglects FG %, points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. That data is important in determining who you invite to your group.

[david0925]

That's the issue, that you can have someone with a qualified score apply to your key and you are jaded based on prior experiences. The system is flawed because the score doesn't accurately depict how good the player is. Like you just said, you won't invite people with a 1500-1700 score to a simple 12-13+ key because they've been bad. Guess what? a 1500-1700 io score is what you get when you've completed every dungeon with a +15 key. The system has made you so jaded that you will only accept overqualified people. You have no proof or evidence to support that the 1500-1700 io player is good/bad, but you can infer that if someone has a much higher score, they must be better. That means people are gaming the system by buying carries and inflating the io score.

That sounds like a flawed system that could drastically be improved.

It's still better than not having information. All of your examples are playing devil's advocate, such as buying carries, which while definitely do exist, are not the majority of the time. On the other hand, having no system so everyone needs to play guesswork is strictly worse.

I see your point for sure and am by no mean claiming raider.io is perfect, but having some metric is much better than not.

[crakerjack]

All +15s in time (with 0 seconds to spare ever) gives you 1932 score.
All +14s in time gives you 1752 score.
All +13s in time gives you 1596 score.
All +12s in time gives you 1452 score.

That's right, forgot that there's 12 dungeons with the addition of JY/WS. Was thinking there was still just 10 and was taking my 15 timed score of 166 and multiplying by 10. But still, the guy won't accept people with a 1500-1700 score into 12-13+ keys. That screams jaded due to running into too many mediocre players with a decent score. Just proof that even mediocre players can get a decent score by grinding keys.

[Alroxas]

You are just lazy.

First off, let's not attack people. I merely outlined a scenario. I could just as easily comment about your characteristics but I don't.

Even if you don't time a key you get score. So let's say you did a 10 last week, now you have a 9 Tol Dagor....

Wow, in what world do you get a +10 key right from the beginning? I had to start at M+0, then +2s, then +4 then up and up until I got to +15s. Hence the comment about how r.io score building is a cyclical nature of running M+ dungeons.

Your waiting time is minimal

Depends on several factors. Initially, yeah wait times are low at season start. All players are functionally at the same score (zero) but as the season progresses, players get more picky on r.io scores especially those looking to push to higher keys. After all, we all want experienced players in our groups and not dead weight.

But like I said, this can also make things harder for someone who started later in the season. If group leaders looking to fill a +10 is probably going to take someone with a higher r.io score than another. It is what it is, if you're a late start, you probably have a lower score (unless you got help from friends/guildmates/teammates/community members) which makes you less appealing to higher groups.

Put it this way, even if you did complete +9s across all 12 dungeons of BFA, your r.io score is around 1k but currently in game, I see a ton of groups in GF that have a solid 1.5k requirement for a +10. Heck I'm pretty sure the only reason I get in to +15 groups is because my r.io is over 2k. If I were back down to 1.5~1.6k range, I would be looked over for someone in the 2k range.

[crakerjack]

It's still better than not having information. All of your examples are playing devil's advocate, such as buying carries, which while definitely do exist, are not the majority of the time. On the other hand, having no system so everyone needs to play guesswork is strictly worse.

I see your point for sure and am by no mean claiming raider.io is perfect, but having some metric is much better than not.

My point is that raider IO should do more, not outright remove it. Because like the guy I quoted said, he won't accept people to a 12-13+ key unless they have an overqualified score. Why is that? Wouldn't you think if someone has a 1500 io score, that they'd be more than competent to do a dungeon that wouldn't improve their score? It's because an io score alone doesn't depict how well someone performs. Like what someone else said, if someone has a 7000+ score, chances are they're good because you can't really carry anyone at that level, but you can carry people through +15's all day long. As a result, you end up with people requesting io scores WAY higher than what the dungeon would actually provide. It's using the assumption that a higher score = better player. And what I'm mainly getting at is that there's more metrics out there available to more accurately measure how well someone performs. What I'm saying is that raider io should look into adapting these metrics and applying it to their system. That way you can still see what experience people have and you can see how well someone performs on an individual level. My main point is that raider io could be better.

[Wuusah]

It's definitely not good enough. I'd imagine for raider io to record more data, people would just run a program like warcraftlogs while playing. It wouldn't be difficult, just start up wow and then start up logs. That way we can gauge team performance alongside individual performance. It's like looking at the box score of an NBA game. raider io just looks at the score of the two teams and neglects FG %, points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. That data is important in determining who you invite to your group.

just because you interrupted a lot of casts doesn't mean you interrupted the casts that mattered. Just because you did a lot of dps, doesn't mean you performed well. Maybe the tank just pulled extraordinarily well and you had a lot of aoe situations. Detailed data can be very misleading and it can also lead to toxic situations where people try to game the system, like with interrupts where someone else interrupts faster than you, so your interrupt didn't count and your personal score drops. That sucks. What if you made an interrupt rotation, where you are the 2nd one to interrupt but you interrupted first immediately. Your score is higher but you failed.

WoW is a complex game. Personal performance cannot be perfectly caught on data. It works quite well with raid bosses because those are very scripted. But dungeons have a lot of variables. It makes no sense to look at "skill" for dungeons. Skilled players in higher keys will keep in touch by socializing, not by checking each other on warcraftlogs. Good players get on friendlists.

[ID811717]

It's definitely not good enough. I'd imagine for raider io to record more data, people would just run a program like warcraftlogs while playing. It wouldn't be difficult, just start up wow and then start up logs. That way we can gauge team performance alongside individual performance. It's like looking at the box score of an NBA game. raider io just looks at the score of the two teams and neglects FG %, points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. That data is important in determining who you invite to your group.

It would actually be a fun idea. As a healer, I would constantly ninja pull packs just so I can pad my HPS (no software can know whether I ninja pulled, or whether it's my assigned responsibility in the group). I bet I can get most +15 pug keys timed with 100k+ HPS overall this way.

[Bloodyleech]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

I got your point, read my whole text.
It's not hard at all to get a good Rio score, you just have to work up - if time is limited, it will take more time, but it's still not hard.
I can easily disable my shown Rio and reach 2k within a reasonable time.
10 Hours are 20 dungeons - it is kinda possible if you have some luck, but yeah, most people would take 15-20 hours if they got absolutely no help at all.