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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Because they do not outnumber the horde. Not at all. That's the whole point, turn the bonus of and it's horde only in warmode.
    This is not speculation. We already had that happen in BfA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way, how is this going to work in SL? The bonus was only interesting because of AP. Now that that is gone... What if the incentive?
    Don't answer "fun" please, wet already know that's not working for Alliance.
    Any time I have War mode on at max level, I am ALWAYS outnumbered by Alliance players no matter what server I'm on. I don't believe for a second that Horde PERPETUALLY outnumbers Alliance that would garner the buff never ever changing.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinte View Post
    And let me guess, you play alliance, on something like Sargeras, where you would number dominate horde every single time without them putting up a fight, but now that warmode is out, you have to deal with the fact that alliance is not a pvp faction. Somehow me and my buddies have no issues finding fun pvp fights as alliance against horde in any shard since the beginning of bfa, and having actual fun. You must be a special snowflake that can't find those fights. Warmode is great, because it lets people who want to pvp, pvp. And people who don't want to pvp can play on the same server as people who do. Its nobody's fault that in general more people who want to pvp are on horde side.
    I play on Azuremyst. A PvE server. Every Tuesday, all shards are swarming with horde. Every Tuesday. I don't know who your "buddies" are but I have finished all world PVP achievements in this expansion. Thanks to WM system, I am always flagged. I never turn it off.

    None of that changes the fact that fewer alliance players PVP and shards are often all horde. Only through grp finder you get to even the odds.

    But thanks for your dumb rant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Any time I have War mode on at max level, I am ALWAYS outnumbered by Alliance players no matter what server I'm on. I don't believe for a second that Horde PERPETUALLY outnumbers Alliance that would garner the buff never ever changing.
    That's due to grp finder. Alliance players look for alliance grps since in their own shards, they are usually outnumbered. Mostly. Its not the same for Australia I hear. But in US...

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    This, so much this.

    I always have Warmode on. My free time is spent, if not in arena with my IRL friend, in the world PvPing during assaults or whatever. I like random skirms/1v2s etc. just for the hell of it. Always have.

    It would be very easy (other than the coding, of course!) to fix Warmode to be best of both worlds [imo]:

    • Lower/Change the XP reward
      Reduce it from the scaling up to 30% that it is now, maybe a flat 5 or 10% at most, and make it always on, regardless of faction and balance - this is purely a compensation to the slowdown of levelling when PvPing, but not enough to be the massive 30% that makes people use it to cut a THIRD off their levelling times. Alternatively, make it so PvP kills give XP instead or, for example, a 1-5% rested bonus similar to the items found in WoD treasures. That completely removes people in Warmode just to level faster who hate PvP.
    • Remove Bonuses
      Remove any other rewards/bonuses that you can't get out of Warmode. Can keep PvP specific quests, just make them not doable in raids and just give credit to the PvP weekly chest, or conquest points/gold etc. Not a really good item that is a massive upgrade to everyone at the start of the expansion/first few patches.
    • Fix Phasing
      Remove the ability to phase out for world quests for 5 minutes after PvP combat (similar to PvP flagging), and make it so you can't enter Arena Skirmishes whilst in PvP combat. Not like you lose anything with Skirms and the queues are super quick, people just abuse them to avoid dying.
    • Fix faction balance
      Reduce the amount of shards so that all the zones are active, alive, and don't feel like 20:1 just because somewhere else in the world there is 20 of your faction on the same shard.


    End result:
    • People who don't want to PvP don't feel forced to join Warmode for better gear or faster levelling
    • People who want to play in Warmode for WPvP have people to fight who CHOOSE to be there, and they can't be toxic morons avoiding fights by phasing out.
    1. Alliance wouldn't turn WM on when the reward was balanced. They had to be bribed with 15-30% bonus and a raid piece. Of course if any Horde bring that they respond with "Well, you had months of free 10%" as if we were responsible for them not turning it on.
    2. Totally agree you shouldn't be able to do AAO in a raid group.
    3/4. Much more difficult. Agree with you on the skirmish thing. You shouldn't be able to teleport anyone with a queue when you're in combat, just like when you're on a vehicle. As for the phasing/balance it's pretty much impossible. Either you get sent to the phase of your leader as the system intends or the very purpose of shards/phases/CRZ may as well not even exist. 1,000 Horde all off doing their own thing versus 100 Alliance stomping Newhome in a mudhole means they get 30% against next week. =(
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If the fear of getting ganked is enough to prevent you ever switching WM on, to me it's pretty clear that you shouldn't be switching WM on. Period.

    As I have said, if people won't switch on WM without a reward incentive, that's a very strong indicator that they have no interest in WM, and my contention is that it would be better if they didn't switch it on.
    This game is 15+ years old. Many people these days aren't playing "for fun". They are playing for rewards. The times of just joining a battleground because you feel like playing a battleground is long over for a lot of players. The times of just doing world pvp because you enjoy world pvp is long over for many players.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Warmode should be "I enjoy engaging in WPvP". That is all.

    Care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion? Because it isn't obvious.
    Right now the big difference between world pvp and instanced pvp is that in world pvp not everyone who participates WANTS to participate. That's how it always has been. A lot of people on pvp server didn't want world pvp in that moment. Maybe they were on their way to a raid or dungeon. Maybe they were farming mats/gold. Maybe they were just doing quests. And then some other player came in and forced them to fight. That's what world pvp has always been about. Big epic battles were a tiny minority of world pvp battles. The vast majority of pvp action were ganks. That's world pvp.
    If warmode gave no PvE rewards then EVERYONE who would activate warmode would be someone who wants to participate in PvP combat and ONLY PvP combat. It wouldn't be world pvp anymore as it has been back in the days. It would simply just be a battleground. It's the same principle. You press a button and you go into pvp. The only reason to activate warmode is to go into pvp with your system. Warmode would be a battleground, just an unfair and unbalanced one because it's an uneven amount of players fighting each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I would imagine that in a scenario where warmode has no extra pve rewards it would lose the tourists who have no actual interest in WPvP. Which means that when you come across players of the other faction, they'll be more likely to actually engage in PvP instead of trying to run away. That doesn't mean the whole world will become a battleground.
    Most people these days want efficiency. The game already throws so many chores at you that you can barely keep up with one char unless you are playing a lot. People would simply DEACTIVATE warmode and do their pve stuff and ACTIVATE warmode to do their pvp weekly quests

    edit: This is literally how many people on alliance already play BfA even with a 30% bonus because they don't want to waste an hour for some daily quests. Warmode without reward incentives would never work. When BfA released with only 10% for both sides, it quickly turned into hordemode. Because it just gets worse and worse over time. A 40:60 ratio will demotivate alliance players, who then turn off warmode, which makes it a 35:65 ratio, which demotivates players, which makes it a 30:70 ratio, etc. World PvP was pretty much DEAD before Blizzard gave alliance extra incentives. And you come to this thread and say "there should be no rewards". How can you be so freaking blind?


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Or people who like the PvP server experience would just keep on most of the time and play the game with it on....
    This is such a naive way of thinking...
    Last edited by Wuusah; 2020-08-31 at 08:30 AM.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    This game is 15+ years old. Many people these days aren't playing "for fun". They are playing for rewards. The times of just joining a battleground because you feel like playing a battleground is long over for a lot of players. The times of just doing world pvp because you enjoy world pvp is long over for many players.
    And you think that this means that they should be entitled to a 10% bonus for doing content in WM in which they basically play as if there is no WM? That makes zero sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Right now the big difference between world pvp and instanced pvp is that in world pvp not everyone who participates WANTS to participate. That's how it always has been.
    It's really simple. If you don't want to participate in WPvP, then switch it off. I really can't understand why you are having such difficulty with such a simple concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    A lot of people on pvp server didn't want world pvp in that moment. Maybe they were on their way to a raid or dungeon. Maybe they were farming mats/gold. Maybe they were just doing quests. And then some other player came in and forced them to fight. That's what world pvp has always been about. Big epic battles were a tiny minority of world pvp battles. The vast majority of pvp action were ganks. That's world pvp.
    And? If you don't like, don't switch it on. You're not making a case for why it is important to motivate people who don't care for WPvP to switch on WM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    If warmode gave no PvE rewards then EVERYONE who would activate warmode would be someone who wants to participate in PvP combat and ONLY PvP combat.
    Aside from the fact that this is utter nonsense why would it even be a problem? If everyone in WM is there for the same thing, then surely that would be a good thing?

    But as I say, your assertion is baseless. I know for a fact that there are many different reasons why people prefer a WPvP environment.
    • Some players like the heightened sense of danger. The PvE environment is generally pretty unthreatening, but the possibility of hostile players poses a real threat
    • Some players enjoy the competition for resources and mobs and most importantly
    • Some players like the opportunity to put the other faction in their place given the opportunity

    The WPvP experience is about a lot more than just going out and hunting enemy players 100% of the time. It's about playing the PvE game in an environment in which you're teamed up with your own faction and competing with players of the opposite faction with the opportunity to engage in combat with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    It wouldn't be world pvp anymore as it has been back in the days. It would simply just be a battleground. It's the same principle. You press a button and you go into pvp. The only reason to activate warmode is to go into pvp with your system. Warmode would be a battleground, just an unfair and unbalanced one because it's an uneven amount of players fighting each other.
    Times change, players change. So the expectation of things being like "as it has been back in the days" is wishful thinking. Even Classic is a very different experience today compared to what it was back then.

    That being said, as I showed above, your notion that everyone in WM would be there to PvP and ONLY PvP is false. Therefore your contention that WM would be a battleground is baseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Most people these days want efficiency. The game already throws so many chores at you that you can barely keep up with one char unless you are playing a lot. People would simply DEACTIVATE warmode and do their pve stuff and ACTIVATE warmode to do their pvp weekly quests
    Stop generalising people. You're describing a small subset of players. And honestly, if that's how this subset chooses to play, I don't see what you think is being lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    edit: This is literally how many people on alliance already play BfA even with a 30% bonus because they don't want to waste an hour for some daily quests. Warmode without reward incentives would never work. When BfA released with only 10% for both sides, it quickly turned into hordemode. Because it just gets worse and worse over time.
    And it doesn't occur to you that maybe the 10% bonus is driving this phenomenon? Think about it please. Take away that 10% and a lot of the horde players just won't bother to switch it on.

    Also, given that it is better to be horde with WM on is the most rewarding mode of play, isn't that an incentive that drives more faction imbalance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    A 40:60 ratio will demotivate alliance players, who then turn off warmode, which makes it a 35:65 ratio, which demotivates players, which makes it a 30:70 ratio, etc. World PvP was pretty much DEAD before Blizzard gave alliance extra incentives. And you come to this thread and say "there should be no rewards". How can you be so freaking blind?
    No, I said there should be no Extra PvE Rewards. Massive difference. And as I pointed out above, it is those silly rewards which are currently driving the extreme imbalance in the player ratio inside WM.

    A far better reward structure for WM should:
    • Be based on actual participation in PvP (not just playing in WM)
    • encourage playing for the weaker faction




    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    This is such a naive way of thinking...
    The quality of your argument thus far is woefully inadequate for you to try and be condescending mate.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And? If you don't like, don't switch it on. You're not making a case for why it is important to motivate people who don't care for WPvP to switch on WM.
    I would say he does make a case for why.
    Maybe they were just doing quests. And then some other player came in and forced them to fight. That's what world pvp has always been about. Big epic battles were a tiny minority of world pvp battles. The vast majority of pvp action were ganks. That's world pvp.
    He wants scrubs to turn on WM so he can gank them and feel good about himself. Not to have interesting fights with other people also looking for PvP.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I would say he does make a case for why.
    He wants scrubs to turn on WM so he can gank them and feel good about himself. Not to have interesting fights with other people also looking for PvP.
    you never have interesting fights in world PvP. What is this foolishness here? If you want interesting fights, then go into BGs or even better, Arenas. World PvP is unfair by design. It's not that I WANT THAT. It's how world pvp is designed in its core. I barely do world pvp anyway in WoW, because it's either a premade horde group killing single alliance players or a premade alliance group killing off single horde players. 90% of world pvp is players starting fights that they think they will win and dodging fights that they think they will lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, I said there should be no Extra PvE Rewards. Massive difference. And as I pointed out above, it is those silly rewards which are currently driving the extreme imbalance in the player ratio inside WM.

    A far better reward structure for WM should:
    Be based on actual participation in PvP (not just playing in WM)
    encourage playing for the weaker faction
    World pvp is unbalanced because factions are unbalanced. There will always be more horde doing world pvp than alliance. It doesn't matter if you give no rewards or if you give pvp rewards. Horde dominates the world of warcraft. That wouldn't change if they made racials more balanced. The pvp community is on Horde. They settled there. All the connections are there. World PvP balancing is irredeemable unless Blizzard makes Alliance ridiculously overpowered.

    And how are you going to reward pvp participation in the first place? Conquest points? Great, get your low ilvl reward because you have no rating!

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I barely do world pvp anyway in WoW, because it's either a premade horde group killing single alliance players or a premade alliance group killing off single horde players. 90% of world pvp is players starting fights that they think they will win and dodging fights that they think they will lose.
    I agree. Which is not a great experience. Which is why Blizzard have to bribe players to switch it on. Which qualifies WM as a failure and why I think it's better to let WM succeed or fail on the basis of being a more enjoyable experience, than trying to artificially boost the player participation in order to try and pretend that it's a success.

    I would argue though that Blizzard are invested in the idea of WM succeeding because they have this romanticised notion about the importance of WPvP in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    World pvp is unbalanced because factions are unbalanced. There will always be more horde doing world pvp than alliance. It doesn't matter if you give no rewards or if you give pvp rewards. Horde dominates the world of warcraft. That wouldn't change if they made racials more balanced. The pvp community is on Horde. They settled there. All the connections are there. World PvP balancing is irredeemable unless Blizzard makes Alliance ridiculously overpowered.
    Faction imbalance happened because the game rewards being on the stronger faction. It is an unstable system that feeds itself. In order to address the problem they need to change the game such that the game rewards being on the weaker faction.

    And in the context of a feature like WM, you don't even need overall faction balance. Just a balance between who is choosing to switch on WM. Right now, for horde, the most expedient way to play is to switch on WM. Nothing changes for you but you get a +10% bonus to all your PvE rewards. This encourages more horde players to do the same and makes the system even more imbalanced. Take away the +10% and a lot of them won't bother. Then it's just a question of giving Alliance a motive to participate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    And how are you going to reward pvp participation in the first place? Conquest points? Great, get your low ilvl reward because you have no rating!
    I am sure that a team like the WoW dev team can think up a far better mechanism for rewarding pvp participation than you or I could. The problem is that they aren't trying to because they don't properly understand what it is that they're trying to achieve. They seem to be so focussed on trying to get more people to switch on WM that they've lost sight of trying to get the right people to switch it on.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I agree. Which is not a great experience. Which is why Blizzard have to bribe players to switch it on. Which qualifies WM as a failure and why I think it's better to let WM succeed or fail on the basis of being a more enjoyable experience, than trying to artificially boost the player participation in order to try and pretend that it's a success.

    I would argue though that Blizzard are invested in the idea of WM succeeding because they have this romanticised notion about the importance of WPvP in the game.
    And warmode is succeeding. The issue here is simply that you want warmode/world pvp to be something that it never was designed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Faction imbalance happened because the game rewards being on the stronger faction. It is an unstable system that feeds itself. In order to address the problem they need to change the game such that the game rewards being on the weaker faction.
    Which warmode does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And in the context of a feature like WM, you don't even need overall faction balance. Just a balance between who is choosing to switch on WM. Right now, for horde, the most expedient way to play is to switch on WM. Nothing changes for you but you get a +10% bonus to all your PvE rewards. This encourages more horde players to do the same and makes the system even more imbalanced. Take away the +10% and a lot of them won't bother. Then it's just a question of giving Alliance a motive to participate.
    It doesn't change the fact that Horde has always been more active in PvP. Even without PvE rewards, there would be faction imbalance which will result in frustrated alliance players who never activate warmode which results in even stronger faction imbalance. You will NEVER get balanced world pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am sure that a team like the WoW dev team can think up a far better mechanism for rewarding pvp participation than you or I could. The problem is that they aren't trying to because they don't properly understand what it is that they're trying to achieve. They seem to be so focussed on trying to get more people to switch on WM that they've lost sight of trying to get the right people to switch it on.
    They are trying to keep the world pvp aspect that has always been in the game, the "you are out in the world to do your PvE stuff and the other faction could attack you any moment" feeling of danger. You won't ever get that feeling with no PvE rewards because people would just deactivate warmode to not waste their time. Players will always choose to eliminate friction if you give them the tool to do it. Old world pvp worked because players didn't have the tool. New warmode works because players get extra incentives to keep that friction.

    If warmode gives only pvp rewards, then the only reason to activate warmode is to go and hunt the other faction. And if that's the case, then you might as well remove warmode and make it all about BGs and Arena. Because then you get exactly the same experience without the faction imbalance bullshit. The point of world pvp has never been to get people together who want to fight. That has always been the point of BGs and Arena. The point of world pvp has always been to make the world more dangerous but people will not choose to make the world more dangerous without an incentive to do so. And if the incentive is to fight the other faction, then people will not activate it during PvE activity. It's really simple logic and it blows my mind that you argue against it.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    There was no reward previously for being on a PvP server, why does MW need a reward? Because else no one turns it on? if so then why didn't everyone play on a PvE server before.
    Clearly the possibility of wPvP is its own reward and enough for those who like wPvP.
    Thats not how the game works. Every feature has a reward tied to it. As I said, back before WM there was no wpvp. It was only ganking and killing of lower lvls with hugely imbalanced servers. the wpvp that was happening was a result of horrid systems controlled by Blizzard. They had to change it one way or another, especially for those on inbalanced servers.

    As with any activity in wow, Blizzard slaps on rewards for taking part in it. WM is no exception. If you want to take the chance & risk of having WM on, you might have a great time, you might have a horrible time.

    Now - Should they adjust the rewards? Probably. Should they make the rewards more pvp oriented? Probably. Should they remove any reward from WM alltogheter? No.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    And warmode is succeeding. The issue here is simply that you want warmode/world pvp to be something that it never was designed to be.
    It's not about what I want it to be. It's what I think it should be.

    I mean, if your qualifiers for success are simply that it gets people to switch the feature on, then it's a resounding success. But if your qualifiers for success have any basis in whether it has made the game better, then I have argued that it is a dismal failure.

    Look at Island Expeditions as a similar example. A LOT of players used the feature over the expansion, with likely billions of expeditions having been successfully completed by players. But I think you'll struggle to find any players who would call the feature a massive success.

    When most people only switch on WM for bonus rewards in spite of the WPvP, there is a serious problem. And this is definitely the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Which warmode does.
    Actually it doesn't. It's still more rewarding to play horde. You argued that yourself. What I am talking about is a system that would make any min-maxer look at the situation and go "I would rather play for the current underdog" instead of a lazy 30% buff to rewards while the experience is getting those rewards is still shitty.

    What Alliance need in WM is an effective PvP countermeasure against horde dominance. What they get instead is more tourists trying to capitalise on the 30% PvE bonus while avoiding contributing to helping with the PvP problem.

    Sorry, but as a Horde player, every time I land up on a shard which is Alliance dominated, I just end up thinking WTF? Because what that tells me is that they're getting +30% bonus for playing a PvE game in which the PvP element is a non-threat, while on every other shard, as Horde, it take two hours to find 10 alliance for the weekly CTA quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that Horde has always been more active in PvP. Even without PvE rewards, there would be faction imbalance which will result in frustrated alliance players who never activate warmode which results in even stronger faction imbalance. You will NEVER get balanced world pvp.
    I am not arguing that it has to be balanced. What I am saying is the numbers should be relatively similar. And achieving similar numbers for WM participation does not require that you get people to change faction, because you only need a subset of the total population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    They are trying to keep the world pvp aspect that has always been in the game, the "you are out in the world to do your PvE stuff and the other faction could attack you any moment" feeling of danger. You won't ever get that feeling with no PvE rewards because people would just deactivate warmode to not waste their time.
    I never advocated for "no PvE rewards". I am advocating for the removal of bonus PvE rewards. And I am saying that if people regarding getting involved in WPvP as a waste of their time, then they honestly have no business switching on WM in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Players will always choose to eliminate friction if you give them the tool to do it. Old world pvp worked because players didn't have the tool.
    I completely disagree. Sure, this is true of some players, but not all. That was the whole point of giving us PvP and PvE servers - to choose the experience you would prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    New warmode works because players get extra incentives to keep that friction.
    Which is why it is a failure. I mean, honestly, wtf is even the point in bothering making WM if the players don't even want to use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    If warmode gives only pvp rewards, then the only reason to activate warmode is to go and hunt the other faction.
    Again, you seem to have completely misconstrued what I have said. I said that the bonus rewards (ie above what non-WM gives) should be based on PvP participation while in WM. I am not opposed to being able to do WQs etc with WM on, I am opposed to the 10% bonus which you get even if you never see another player of the other faction (let alone "waste time" fighting them).

    And while some players might devote a lot of their efforts towards hunting down the other faction, for many more, it will be about what opportunities present themselves. But by removing the 10% bonus for completing the WQ's and tying the bonus instead to PvP participation, I believe that WM players will be a lot more likely to take advantage of those opportunities instead of doing everything they can to avoid them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    The point of world pvp has never been to get people together who want to fight. That has always been the point of BGs and Arena. The point of world pvp has always been to make the world more dangerous but people will not choose to make the world more dangerous without an incentive to do so.
    But you've lost sight of why you're trying to make the world more dangerous in the first place. Which is because it makes for a more enjoyable game experience for some players. So once again, if a player requires an additional PvE incentive to activate WM, then they shouldn't be activating WM. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    And if the incentive is to fight the other faction, then people will not activate it during PvE activity. It's really simple logic and it blows my mind that you argue against it.
    What blows my mind is that you seem to so fixated on your "simple logic" that you refuse to see the bigger picture even though I've laid it out in a way that anyone should be able to understand.

    I see zero value in pushing people into using WM unless they want to have a world PvP experience. Furthermore, I see it as detrimental to push players into the mode they don't prefer for the sake of expedience. Warmode is a failure because instead of encouraging players to opt for the game experience we prefer, it is actively encouraging them to do the opposite so that the game devs can pretend that their feature is a success.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    As with any activity in wow, Blizzard slaps on rewards for taking part in it. WM is no exception.
    WM is not an activity though. It's a mode of play. The activity associated with WM on is WPvP. The problem is that the reward which Blizzard slapped on is tied to the mode, and not to the activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Now - Should they adjust the rewards? Probably. Should they make the rewards more pvp oriented? Probably. Should they remove any reward from WM alltogheter? No.
    Yeah, this is what I have been saying.

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Who are you trying to kid? Imagine being like this:
    Your friends invite you to play with them on WoW and then you suddenly chose different realm because fuck friends.

    Yeah i mean thats a free choice right?

    But even so, there are situations like language barriers. Where 99% of your country plays on pvp servers and you dont know english well.
    No, it's not always free choice thats why pvp servers had to go and warmode is the solution.
    I have chosen server over friends in the past and I always will, because I know what it means to be on a dead server just because a couple of pals raved about the game for two months.

    TO echo what @jellmoo said, it is absolutely a free choice. There are pros and cons for both options. You choose to go with friends because you are worried you won't find new ones on whatever server you will pick, not because you are forced by the elements to do so.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Actually it doesn't. It's still more rewarding to play horde. You argued that yourself. What I am talking about is a system that would make any min-maxer look at the situation and go "I would rather play for the current underdog" instead of a lazy 30% buff to rewards while the experience is getting those rewards is still shitty.

    What Alliance need in WM is an effective PvP countermeasure against horde dominance. What they get instead is more tourists trying to capitalise on the 30% PvE bonus while avoiding contributing to helping with the PvP problem.
    And how do you do this? Don't come with "that's Blizzard's job, not mine". You tell me, how are they supposed to get more alliance players to activate warmode so that it evens out?

    Sorry, but as a Horde player, every time I land up on a shard which is Alliance dominated, I just end up thinking WTF? Because what that tells me is that they're getting +30% bonus for playing a PvE game in which the PvP element is a non-threat, while on every other shard, as Horde, it take two hours to find 10 alliance for the weekly CTA quest.
    Sharding is definitely a problem with world pvp. It has nothing to do with PvE rewards, though. Even without PvE rewards people would abuse shards to get those PvP rewards. If warmode rewarded pvp participation only, then people would abuse shards where their faction dominates and get those rewards.


    I am not arguing that it has to be balanced. What I am saying is the numbers should be relatively similar. And achieving similar numbers for WM participation does not require that you get people to change faction, because you only need a subset of the total population.
    And how do you do that? Horde has the numbers advantage. Remove all PvE incentives to activate warmode and Horde will still have a numbers advantage because the PvP community is on Horde side. So now you need to give Alliance extra incentives to activate warmode. What do you give them?


    I never advocated for "no PvE rewards". I am advocating for the removal of bonus PvE rewards. And I am saying that if people regarding getting involved in WPvP as a waste of their time, then they honestly have no business switching on WM in the first place.

    Again, you seem to have completely misconstrued what I have said. I said that the bonus rewards (ie above what non-WM gives) should be based on PvP participation while in WM. I am not opposed to being able to do WQs etc with WM on, I am opposed to the 10% bonus which you get even if you never see another player of the other faction (let alone "waste time" fighting them).
    ...seriously? When I say "PvE rewards" I'm obviously talking about the 10-30% bonus you get from warmode, not worldquest rewards. How do you even come to the conclusion I would think no PvE rewards from warmode means PvE is deactivated? Seriously man...

    Which is why it is a failure. I mean, honestly, wtf is even the point in bothering making WM if the players don't even want to use it?
    To give the sense of danger back to the world. How often do I have to repeat myself? Back in the days of PvP servers, people didn't want to do world pvp 100% of the time all the time. But it could be forced upon you. With warmode, you can opt out of world pvp if you don't feel like doing world pvp and that would remove the experience of having this dangerous world where you might get attacked anytime.

    And while some players might devote a lot of their efforts towards hunting down the other faction, for many more, it will be about what opportunities present themselves. But by removing the 10% bonus for completing the WQ's and tying the bonus instead to PvP participation, I believe that WM players will be a lot more likely to take advantage of those opportunities instead of doing everything they can to avoid them.
    What opportunities could present themselves to you if you want to do your handful of worldquests without a group and have warmode active? Come on, man. Give examples. All you're talking about in this thread is some vague stuff.


    But you've lost sight of why you're trying to make the world more dangerous in the first place. Which is because it makes for a more enjoyable game experience for some players. So once again, if a player requires an additional PvE incentive to activate WM, then they shouldn't be activating WM. Period.
    I don't understand why "get more rewards, but you might be killed by other players" is such a bad idea in your opinion. Having players who don't want to participate in pvp but get dragged into it is a big part of world pvp. It has always been a big part of world pvp. Many battles I encountered started just in this way. You're minding your own business and then someone comes along and kills you, so you come back and kill him, then they come along with a buddy and camp your corpse. So you get a few buddies to help you out and suddenly it's 3v4, etc. That's the cool part about world pvp. The part where it escalates.
    This mentality of "if you don't like it then don't use it" would rob a lot of players of cool experiences. I think you are looking at it in a very shallow way.


    What blows my mind is that you seem to so fixated on your "simple logic" that you refuse to see the bigger picture even though I've laid it out in a way that anyone should be able to understand.

    I see zero value in pushing people into using WM unless they want to have a world PvP experience. Furthermore, I see it as detrimental to push players into the mode they don't prefer for the sake of expedience. Warmode is a failure because instead of encouraging players to opt for the game experience we prefer, it is actively encouraging them to do the opposite so that the game devs can pretend that their feature is a success.
    Why is there zero value to be forced into world pvp even if you don't want to world pvp? What's so bad about this? What is bad about making the world more dangerous but also more rewarding?

    I am convinced that if you removed PvE rewards from warmode then world pvp would die. One side would dominate so much that the other side would stop bothering with it and never activate it again. It's always going to be a shitshow. People will always deactivate it when they do PvE because it's just not worth it to get ganked all the time, unless they play Horde where they won't ganked anyway because there is no Alliance in warmode. That's what warmode was in BfA release. There is no way to give meaningful PvP rewards. Meaningful PvP rewards come from rated PvP. World PvP will never be rated. They'd have to make special rewards that you can only get from world pvp, like mounts or transmog styles or whatever. And in such a case, Horde would still dominate the servers because they also want those mounts and transmog styles. You will always have more Horde doing PvP. That's the baseline faction difference. Horde does PvP, Alliance doesn't. So how do you fix it with your PvP incentives? Give examples.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    "Fix the faction imbalance"
    You make it sound like that's an easy thing to do.
    So you know what would happen if the changes you suggested would be implemented?
    100% horde participation, 0% alliance
    Congrats to horde, you won the faction war.
    Your are not able to merge shards and servers in a way that results in equal numbers, because there literally are way less alliance players who want to turn it on, even with the 30% bonus.
    I'm Alliance and would still be in Warmode. Removing reasons for being in raid groups to do kill quests removes the need to steamrole people and disrupt faction balance.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    I'm Alliance and would still be in Warmode. Removing reasons for being in raid groups to do kill quests removes the need to steamrole people and disrupt faction balance.
    Thats fair enough, but it doesn't really matter if you personally would still be in Warmode. The vast majority will not be - we know that already, because Blizzard has data that proves it was necessary to build the buff system.

  16. #516
    Sharding is the real issue. The imbalance would never ever be a factor if sharding did what it was supposed to. It is supposed to make each shard version have roughly equal players with some give or take value. However in practice it has NEVER done this properly. It needs to be extremely aggressive in how it handles this. Join as a large group or raid and there isnt a shard with equal players of the other faction? Poof you go to a shard with no other faction and the smaller groups/solo players get matched on a shard that closely matches them. Should never ever see a situation where it is 10-20 vs 5 either way

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Thats fair enough, but it doesn't really matter if you personally would still be in Warmode. The vast majority will not be - we know that already, because Blizzard has data that proves it was necessary to build the buff system.
    Why do people need to be in WM?
    Let the people who want to pvp be in there and don't tempt people who want little to do with it by giving them a 10-30% bonus.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Why do people need to be in WM?
    Let the people who want to pvp be in there and don't tempt people who want little to do with it by giving them a 10-30% bonus.
    Go into a BG if you want to pvp.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Go into a BG if you want to pvp.
    if that your view then why even have WM at all. Just get rid of it entirely.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    if that your view then why even have WM at all. Just get rid of it entirely.
    To make the world dangerous when you do you PvE stuff

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