You're right, personal performance will never be caught perfectly. The thing is, raider io doesn't use ANY personal performance data. There will never be a perfect system as you put it, so does that mean we shouldn't try to make one? Raider io has flaws and claiming there's no reason to make it better because it'll never be perfect is just finding a reason to be content with it. There's room for improvement and anyone who objects is just biased.
Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.
Well that's just toxic behavior. It would be an entirely different scenario if you were a dps and your tank/healer were find on surviving. On my ret alt, I'll do this because all my damage comes from 3/3 lights decree and crusader. When my wings are popped, I want the tank to chain pulls, so often I'll throw a judgement at the next mob assuming there is necrotic or some other affix that would hinder the group by chain pulling.
Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.
And it's GOOD that rio doesn't use personal performance data. Because people would game the system to fluff their number up. Dungeons are just too different depending on group composition, amount of trash you fight at once, which week it is. Including personal performance would not make it better. It would make it worse.
And yes, we shouldn't make a perfect system because no system is as good as putting good players on your friendlist and then asking them to do another key together. This is the perfect system.
Then what's the point of io if it should be vague and we just play with people on our friends list? What value does it have if we're not even using it to form groups, but instead just playing with friends? The whole point of io is to give some idea of experience a player has. If you have a clique of buds and enjoy what you're doing, then io has little importance outside of chasing a higher score. The system is in place in order for people to tell how competent someone is, so more data would only help it, not make it worse. IO already keeps track of what dungeons you've completed with what affixes, so a knowledgeable player would understand that overall damage on bursting weeks would be lower than non-bursting weeks.
I really don't see how you think more data would hurt raider io.
Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.
the point is to weed out inexperienced players, get a pool of potentially good players, so that you can put them on your friends list afterwards if they actually were good in the run. It's really not that difficult to understand. You don't start with friends. You make friends.
Sure a flawed system but to the date it has made my runs go 100x better than when I took people who had good Ilvl or linked me another achievement.
It is a great system for people on limited time who want to do a run in a "farm" manner and not progression. I've had many people say that someone who is 480 should be invited NP because they have ilvl to do so. Being overqualified or showing proof you can do something will always win out over a system that fails to show someone is capable.
I still can't quite see the problem, and thats coming from someone who started out not even wanting to DL raiderIO. More score equals less fails, equals higher IO, and pugging higher. This happened forever in raids, will continue to happen forever. (example: people wanting AOTC for normal nzoth etc, nothing to do with IO).
Honestly the system works the same as school degrees. Does a bacehlor or master's say 100% someone will be better than someone without? No.. But it will give a much safer basis to pick people from. Its safer and creates less problems in the long run.
Last edited by Zeusy; 2020-08-31 at 09:27 PM.
Yea, using ilvl as a second metric is vague too, just like having a decent io score. Both can be fabricated by coughing up enough gold for carries, which is why I'm suggesting raider io should adopt other metrics to gauge individual performance. Imagine if they did and you pulled up someones io and it showed they had a score of 1700. You look closer and you see that they were only doing 30k DPS overall instead of 70k+ like others do at 480 ilvl. You can then interpret that the person w/ a 1700 score is getting carried either by guildies/friends or paying for carries. That way we don't head down the route of requesting overqualified scores for our keystones. It creates a barrier of entry in order to do 15's, not based on skill, but based on how much you grind io.
That way you could pull someone up, see they have a mediocre score, but the last 5 dungeons they did, they performed well on an individual level. It would be easier to root out the people who pay for carries and those who bottom parse in each group they join.
Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.
I see this happening sooner or later as logs and addons become even better. The slope is going to start getting icky though when people start to require top parsing people + IO to get into stuff. Vague might be an okay merit for most pug situations.
Seeing things like hmm dude you only do 95k while top people do 110k, hit the road etc possibly could be the norm. Parses are always cheesed so if we can figure out a way from that not happening then it might be good.
The point of rio is to find experienced players. But you need to socialize with people if you want to do really difficult content.
Socializing should be your endgoal anyway. It’s an MMO after all. Playing only with random people is a miserable experience compared to playing with friends.
Those people who clear mythic whilst raid logging have a group though that they play with. And most likely do their +15 every week with right now. IO doesnt affect them....
- - - Updated - - -
For an 8 key I wouldnt care about your IO personally. It's an 8. But it's red flags when you see a 300 IO score this late into a season for me, probably will lead to problems in the dungeon but it is only an 8 so it wouldn't bother me. Above 10 though, nah I wouldn't go anywhere near 300 IO score unless you are a friend.
Raider IO is great though for the exact reason you pointed out, it is very handy to see the experience of people making groups too.
That's not the point. The point I was making that competitive content such as Mythic Raid and high M+ are not exclusive content to the players who can invest in a lot of time to do them.
A group of 40s with limited time could also achieve the same, just not as quickly as World First, Realm First, or MDI levels of speed. BUT that's predicated on having a group of like minded people.
Look if you have a group of people you play with, then R.io is mostly irrelevant, you don't need it. But for the solo-ish player who doesn't have a strong guild, or a strong community or a group of friends that share the interest of running high M+ keys, then you're more dependent on r.io to get you into groups.
Furthermore, the time investment is much higher the later you start in a season especially if you don't have a previous season's score to help "boost" your profile up.
This isn't the fault of r.io but rather the community's use of r.io and how we've come to use r.io as a "quick and dirty" metric of how experienced a player is even though the r.io score is based not solely on an individual's ability but rather that individual's ability within a group of players.
Shit, if that ain't clear enough, how about this: There are plenty of sites selling boosts for RLM or even for gold. Which means that it's entirely possible (not probable) for a player to get a 2k score by spending tons of moneys for carries and yet they will have ZERO fucking experience in any dungeon because they were carried through all 12 dungeons. Hell they might not even been playing because some of those sites who do carries are "piloted" carries (they assume control of your character). Yeah it's completely against ToS (especially for the RLM paid ones) but it could happen and does happen in a more limited capacity.
Where is r.io or even Blizzard's protection against that?
---
Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.
Aaaand close thread in all honesty. Raider IO isn't great, I dislike using it myself but I have had so many keys ruined, so many bad dungeons that it became necessary for a smoother experience. Yeah it isn't perfect but it saves me looking up your armory
- - - Updated - - -
Right, I don't see an issue with this at all? It's an MMORPG, if you have friends/guild/community it is easier to do end game content. If you don't you have to rely on other metrics, Raider IO is that current metric, it used to be your armory, it used to be your achievements, it used to be Gearscore. Raider IO is the best version so far of these metrics because it is very quick and simple.
It doesn't take long, especially when you consider how long a season goes on for, for a player of all types to build up an IO score. If you can't afford to give what? 20 hours? 30 hours? 40 hours? over a whole season to your apparent interest in pushing high keys, then perhaps you aren't as interested in it as you thought?
- - - Updated - - -
That's a completely non point and one I see thrown around very often on this thread. So a boosted guy can get access into some runs, where he gets found out or he doesn't(maybe he's good but chose to get boosted), if he gets found out, he gets put on ignore and not invited again to that group, if he's good, who cares.
- - - Updated - - -
And so it should be. You have tons of catching up to do with the new affixes etc and that takes a few runs or you looking up information. Both of them things will take more time the longer you go away from the game.
I'll make the example slightly more relevant to those players smashing keys above and beyond by increasing all the values:
Example: I have an M+12 key and 450 raider.io score: OM:J+8 3-chest, OM:W+10 1-chest, KR+12 1-chest and SoB+15 completed, but failed timer. I'm 460 DPS looking for 455.
You would change your opinion, even though it's exactly the same situation scaled up?
37 + (3*7) + (3*7)W/L/T/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/0/1 | Mafia: 1/6/0/7 | TPR: 0/4/1/5SK: 0/1/0/1 | VT: 2/5/2/7 | Cult: 1/0/0/1
I dont pug M+. Sometimes i will invite one pug if someone bails on us, but i run with the same group of people - or at least people from the same pool of players i know. As such, i have never once looked at my io - No doubt its a complete dumpster fire and a huge embarrassment - but it is not relevant to me as a player, so i honestly just dont care. I guess if i was consistently pugging high keys, that would be a bit different, but as it is, its mostly a non-issue for me.
There is no "community". You yourself wrote and I completely agree that WoW is played by a very diverse group of people, both regarding skill, time, interests, language etc.
"Community" is just a euphemism for "you should behave how I want you to behave".
When I play with random people I want to be able to filter them in order that my game experience will be as pleasant as possible. How those random people get their experience is their problem, not mine. Other random people filter me mercilessly when they make their groups and I wouldn't expect anything different from when they make their groups.
When I play with people I know, that being friends, guildies etc. the rules are different, obviously.
You should accept, as I do, that the guy making the group can invite people based on any system he wants: Ilvl, experience, transmog, name, sex, class etc.
Getting upset/finding it unfair that you don't get invited is a waste of your time and happiness.
I think the root of your point comes down to people wanting to play WoW(an MMORPG) on their own, doing their own thing without worrying or caring about what other players are doing. They want a solo experience in an MMORPG and I would say that perhaps they should accept that if you choose to not make like minded friends or join a guild or a community, then expect to have short comings when joining groups, whether raider IO exacerbates that problem or not isn't clear for me. But they have chosen to treat WoW as a single player experience.
- - - Updated - - -
And that is how most people who are in guilds operate and that is great. IO is just needed for the pugging scene where people who choose to not make that step into communites/guilds will suffer and it is their own fault.
- - - Updated - - -
This late into the season, yes. It isn't worth the risk of wasting my time. But if your 12 key was a KR I would continue searching and maybe come back if I didn't get invited into anything else.