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  1. #101
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    At this point I'm curious as to exactly what it takes for someone to be punted straight to the Maw, if the likes of Garrosh and Kael'thas visit them vampires first. At the time of her death in Wrath Sylvanas had done nothing that these two hadn't and far more besides, and it seems that Devos and Uther thought there was at least a chance that Arthas would escape the Maw, else why bother throw him there themselves?

    Maybe the Arbiter always sends even the very worst souls to Revendreth first so they at least have a chance at repentance. Not just people who joined or aided a cosmos-destroying superpower, but the leaders thereof. So for instance maybe Sargeras would end up in the Maw were he to somehow be sent to the Shadowlands, but not even the likes of Gul'dan and KJ would.

    Considering the Maw is supposed to be an eternity of suffering with no way back whatsoever, it does make some sense that the instant one-way trip there would be an extraordinarily rare occurrence. That's a fate far, far worse than any other.
    Insofar as we know there are two methods to get tossed into the Maw: 1.) failed to be redeemed in Revendreth, and 2.) be a threat to the Warcraft metacosm, specifically to the Shadowlands themselves. Kael'thas is confirmed to be in Revendreth, and Garrosh would also likely be consigned to that location. As of the time of Edge of Night I agree Sylvanas had not yet done anything that would take her straight to the Maw, making it very likely that her visit there was arranged beforehand as a result of external tampering and not where she was actually supposed to go. Devos and Uther weren't concerned that Uther could escape the Maw, per se; but more that the Arbiter might not consign him there directly (instead sending him to Revendreth or somewhere else entirely) thereby denying Uther his justice (or vengeance). Devos also considered Arthas' existence an existential threat to Bastion, which none of the other Kyrians believed.

    Before the machine of Death was broken the Maw would've been a very rare final destination for a given soul. Revendreth has confirmed world-destroyers in it, after all; so the vast majority of souls would at least be sent there before falling into the Maw. I think Gul'dan might be a likely candidate for the Maw himself, considered that in his life he not only destroyed worlds but also disturbed the very fabric of the metacosm by messing with the spiritual realm of the Elements and utilizing the Cipher of Damnation. He could very well be seen as the kind of threat that makes a soul worthy of the Maw directly. Demons can't go the Shadowlands in any case, but Kil'jaeden and the rest of the Legion leaders are probably similar in that regard.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #102
    I just think Sylvanis would never go to Revendreth because she is just irredeemable. Garrosh did things for the horde, albeit his vision of the horde but nevertheless, the horde. He would give his life for his horde. Kaelthas would do anything to protect his people even if they would siphon demonic energy. Both had good intentions, it was just carried out wrong. Sylvanis however has never seen the forsaken as something to protect, she has always seen them as arrows for her quiver. She only thinks of herself and that is why she was sent to the maw, because she would never be able to redeem herself.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    I just think Sylvanis would never go to Revendreth because she is just irredeemable. Garrosh did things for the horde, albeit his vision of the horde but nevertheless, the horde. He would give his life for his horde. Kaelthas would do anything to protect his people even if they would siphon demonic energy. Both had good intentions, it was just carried out wrong. Sylvanis however has never seen the forsaken as something to protect, she has always seen them as arrows for her quiver. She only thinks of herself and that is why she was sent to the maw, because she would never be able to redeem herself.
    Did you miss the part where someone brought up that someone in Revendreth destroy his/her own planet?
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  4. #104
    I thought it was obvious from the get-go that Revendreth is essentially the BDSM dungeon where the bad-but-redeemable souls go. The beatings will continue until morality improves.

    Garrosh for example makes sense. He was thoroughly arrogant and delusional, easily manipulated by both good and evil forces, but they make a point to say there were timelines where he managed to be a good leader. Presumably more Saurfang influence, less drinking old god blood.

    Sylvanas is going to the Maw.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-08-31 at 10:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    @StationaryHawk

    The entire conflict is resolved by Mak'gora.
    Eh? The conflict is resolved by Sylvanas throwing a hissy fit and yeeting out to solo the Lich King. After a Mak'gora, but she and Saurfang might as well have been brawling in a bar in the Drag for all the difference that made. The Mak'gora itself was so inconsequential that whoever actually won it didn't matter at all.

    @Aucald I mean, Kael'thas tried to summon a demon invasion that would ultimately spawn a Dark Titan (itself a multiverse-conquering threat) while Garrosh helping what remains of Y'shaarj conquer the world would likely end in a Void Titan (same deal, only Voidier this time). They're really not far from Gul'dan himself.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    Did you miss the part where someone brought up that someone in Revendreth destroy his/her own planet?
    Or someone who killed their own child lol.

  7. #107
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, Kael'thas tried to summon a demon invasion that would ultimately spawn a Dark Titan (itself a multiverse-conquering threat) while Garrosh helping what remains of Y'shaarj conquer the world would likely end in a Void Titan (same deal, only Voidier this time). They're really not far from Gul'dan himself.
    I don't know if I would go that far for either - and it seems like at least in Kael'thas' case neither did the Arbiter. We don't know if Kael really had any inkling of what Sargeras was planning, or even Kil'jaeden really. He joined them because he felt he had to, and because of the power they offered him. We can't really know if he was complicit with their overarching goals. Similar for Garrosh, he probably had no idea what the Old Gods' agenda was, and more to that he didn't really *care* - he just wanted the power they offered, and even managed to avoid their corruption for the most part in wresting it from them temporarily.

    This is not to say they're good people by any means, just that a pretty substantial gulf exists between them and Gul'dan.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    No, this has never been a thing. Players assumed it was a thing because Sylvanas went to the good place when Arthas killed her and the bad place when she killed herself, and concluded that literally the only possible explanation is that all undead go to the bad place because it couldn't possibly be that Sylvanas was a bad person.
    i know. but i was talking about players assuming that based on the short story which. not that the thinking was canon or anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You're right that it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong, but it does explicitly mean they're redeemable - if you're fully irredeemable, you'd go straight to the Maw.

    Though I'm kind of skeptical of any system where any Kyrian can essentially wait out a person's death that they can astrally sense and then toss them into the Maw to effectively burn in hell with no means of extraction for all time, and there's no way to see this has happened since we only learn it from Uther after he switches sides. Sure, this time it was Arthas, but they could do it to anyone they have a beef with.
    well they clearly overstepped their bounds there and acted out of character (for a kyrian). who knows maybe theyll reveal that is what broke the shadowlands or added to the issue of frostmourne with arthas, frostmoune shattering and finally arthas being chucked.

    I also think the topic itself is beside the point because the in-story judgment of the Arbiter is different from the out of story moral judgment of the players.
    true. but while a player character can have an opinion, id say (At least for me) the arbiter's judgement would take precedence over any player moral compass. the shadowlands arent linear like good or bad, but they definitely do have sections. Bastion is literal heaven. Maw is literal hell. Revendreth looks like purgatory. Maldraxxus and Ardenweald are tacked on cuz they needed to funnel people into sectors that dont really fit the first three. Now given that the entire cosmos is headed to shadowlands eventually (except void and titan i guess) i dont think players have the agency or even understanding to place proper judgement. like heck, kael is in revendreth, along with inqusitor stilia or w.e her name is (i dont know how to do the spoiler thing so cant really say but basically what she did, in players eyes would be an immediate yeet into the maw).

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    OP is sure right about that one. In Revendreth your sins are being dragged out into the open, you get punished for it and are forced to confront them. These sins include murdering thousands in pursuit of knowledge, treating others as expendable, documenting suffering without attempting to stop it, producing perfect toxins that desolate entire species (These are the sins Herald Temel proclaims to have been Inquisitor Stelia's sins). Especially 'desolating entire species' doesn't seem like 'doing nothing wrong'. Revendreth is where you go when you did wrong and horrbile things in life and you do get punished for it. And if you are unrepentant even after eons of punishment and make no progress with changing, you get sent to the Maw.
    oh yea thats her name. for some reason i was like stilia, stacy or something lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, Kael wasn't really that undead? He was only dead-dead after we chopped his head off - he didn't properly die/wasn't undead after Sunwell.
    well...there was this gynormous fel crystal stuck in his chest powering him in magisters terrace. and to make certain this time he stayed dead we cut off his head. id say he was pretty much undead and then dead dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    From what I've seen of the Bastion Covenant quest-chain, I don't know if I'd say Uther really joins the Maw willingly, or at all - the fact that the Forsworn's leadership is working with the Jailer is actually pointedly kept from Uther, and once it comes to light he seemingly abandons the Forsworn in an attempt to find his own way separate from both them and the Kyrians as a mainstay. Devos unfortunately does seem to fall from grace pretty severely.
    if the Arbiter can actually see not just what you have done, but what you COULD have done. then it would make sense if she ended up in the Maw in the first place, because it might have seen her aim to work with the Jailer.

    but thats a big ass IF because in WC3 she ends up in a peaceful place before arthas necros her.
    I mean as a banshee she did do some horrible crap, with the plague testing and all (BEFORE BFA). but id say that would warrant revendreth, not the Maw. if Kael can be taken to the maw then so can sylvanas. At this point though given that she is openly with the Jailer and looking to break the cosmic balance then theres only one destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But the Kyrian don't have a beef with anyone because they don't remember anyone.
    Baine would be a kyrian when Sylvanas finally has enough of him and kills him.
    And then the Kyrians would have beef....because...well you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Still for Devos it's never about power; she genuinely believes she is doing the right thing that would make the Shadowlands more just. It's Lysonia, her second in command that only really cares about the power she can get by serving the Jailer.
    Devos admits later and cascades. I dont know how to do spoiler tags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I have to say, the fact that the narrative tried to lambast Uther for having a grievance against Arthas and imply this was irrational and petty actually got on my tits.
    it kind of makes sense. so i dont know where blizz got the inspiration for bastion but there is some relation to what the archon said and how kyrians are meant to behave. in Islam, angels are very linear. In the sense that they dont ask questions they dont doubt. Whatever God's command is, its done. Doesnt matter how big and tall and heavy a mountain might be between them and their objective. It will get done. The Kyrians are basically the angels of the shadowlands. When the Archon commands Devos, as a Kyrian she shouldnt have had any doubts or questions. Heck she shouldnt even have had doubts about Uther in the first place. Calamity or whatnot be damned. If the Archon says drop it, as a Kyrian angel, dropping it cold turkey is in character. But her doubting, then acscending uther and finally breaking off her duty.

    It cascades even further until well she goes too far. So truly what she did is totally out of character for what a kyrian is meant to do. Which is part of why they unburden. They let go and basically their only objective is to follow the command, nothing else.
    Last edited by Minikin; 2020-09-01 at 05:55 AM.
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    My impression is that the narrative is casting the idea that letting go of all memories is bad, since you might find strength in some of them. But there's an overall thematic direction of the expansion and BFA as well that grievance against a party that wronged you is vengeance, and vengeance is bad. Hence why Uther has to be pushed by Devos to drop Arthas and later on, he draws a line between vengeance (bad) and justice (good) when it came to dealing with Arthas.
    To be honest I thought he hesitated and needed egg'd on to toss him because it was immediately after Arthas died and it showed Frostmourne shattered on the ground. I figured the trapped part of Uther's soul released, potentially came back to him (Devos after all is the one who retrieved Arthas and dragged him there) and he was still processing it as his vengeance boner deflated.

    I'm probably giving them undeserved faith, but if it comes up in a quest somewhere I would take it.

    Edit: Also I said it before and I'll say it again, Lilian is only stepping aside for Calia because she understands that as a character with a Forsaken model she is incapable of leading her people. Its tradition.
    Last edited by Reivur; 2020-09-01 at 06:19 AM.

  10. #110
    Stood in the Fire BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Ravendrath is an opportunity, not a sure way towards redemption. Look at Kaelthas, if we did not interfere, the accuser would surely sent him to MAW just for being a pretentious twat! He refused to acknowledge his crimes time and time again and continued to blame others. If the Shadowlands was not in crisis the Accuser would surely send him to the MAW. She would not be so patient and understanding.
    Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos was the game that brought me into gaming. I was 17 years old then, I abhorred gaming before this game. From then on, I became a fan of Warcraft and Blizzard. To see it all go down the drain like this is truly sad for me. No king rules forever but at least some of them went down in history as real badasses. I hoped Blizzard and Warcraft would be one of them but it is no longer possible.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Wait is this what Blizzard is running with?? I thought the point of the Frozen Throne was that Arthas took the path he did willingly even when Nerzhul's powers had greatly weakened and a good chunk of the undead were freed from his control
    Nah, he was definately controlled. Frostmourne took his soul and robbed him of the capacity to actually feel anything when he murdered his father and his former subjects. Something he actually did not know until Varimathras tells him about it, nor did he agree to it as he states himself.

    He was willing to make sacrifices for his subjects, but the Lich King turned this against him. Twisting his conviction to think of the undead as his new subjects. The love for his people becomes his downfall.

    He basically turned 180 degrees in the instant he grabbed Frostmourne and he kept hearing the voice of the Lich King ever since. The old Arthas died at that moment, what remains of him was the child-like form of Mathias Lenher that we meet in Icecrown.

    His character however remained the same: Taunting, over-confident, sarcastic, he is still himself, but his will belongs to the Lich King.

    The problem is that no one except for Arthas and his closest advisers (Kel'thuzad mostly, since he was part of the plan to corrupt Arthas in the first place) knows this.
    They only saw Arthas slaughtering Lordaeron and then becoming the Lich King himself, hence why Uther believes Arthas is responsible. If he had been judged by the Arbiter instead of being plucked up by Devos, I think there is a good chance he would not have ended up in the Maw.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    He was classified as humanoid still in Magister's Terrace, though he definitely looked worse for wear and closed to undead than living I felt as well. I don't think he was undead, though; just on Fel life support via the Fel crystal shoved through his midsection.
    yea that makes sense I guess. another person basically said the same thing that fel crystal was keeping him alive, not brought him from the dead.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    Which means Arthas was never headed for the maw until Uther stepped in, technically Arthas was never Undead, but was rather changed by Frostmourne and the Armour and became the Lich King upon donning the Helm.

    It puts him in an odd position since by rights he was both undead and living.
    Didn't he, shortly after donning the helm, rip out his own heart because he felt the last bits of his humanity holding him back? Unless some kind of magic we've never had discussed was in play, he'd definitely have to be undead after that point. Take Meryl who made himself undead of his own free will using his own power. Even demons and elementals have what passes for them for hearts and tend to die if they're removed.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    Did you miss the part where someone brought up that someone in Revendreth destroy his/her own planet?
    Who do you mean

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Didn't he, shortly after donning the helm, rip out his own heart because he felt the last bits of his humanity holding him back? Unless some kind of magic we've never had discussed was in play, he'd definitely have to be undead after that point. Take Meryl who made himself undead of his own free will using his own power. Even demons and elementals have what passes for them for hearts and tend to die if they're removed.
    By the time he donned that helm he was no longer Arthas, his soul had already been consumed by Frostmourne so I doubt ripping his heart out had any effect upon him aside from a symbolic one.

    The Lich King exists between Death and Undeath, he is neither and both, I find it very difficult to put him in the same category as Sylvannas, The Scourge or the Forsaken.

  16. #116
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    if the Arbiter can actually see not just what you have done, but what you COULD have done. then it would make sense if she ended up in the Maw in the first place, because it might have seen her aim to work with the Jailer.

    but thats a big ass IF because in WC3 she ends up in a peaceful place before arthas necros her.
    I mean as a banshee she did do some horrible crap, with the plague testing and all (BEFORE BFA). but id say that would warrant revendreth, not the Maw. if Kael can be taken to the maw then so can sylvanas. At this point though given that she is openly with the Jailer and looking to break the cosmic balance then theres only one destination.
    I would agree. I think Sylvanas' visit to the Maw after her death at Icecrown was the product of tampering (e.g. the Jailer bringing her to the Maw directly as opposed to her being sentenced there by the Arbiter). She probably didn't deserve paradise anymore, or wherever it was she seemed to go when she died at Quel'Thalas, but her many crimes also don't see Maw-worthy based on what we know of Revendreth's assorted damned souls.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #117

    Sylvanas deserves to be in Revendreth.

    If Kael can go there Sylvanas should too. The first time she died after wotlk she wasn’t genociding anyone just yet so redemption should still be an option. I hope Sylvanas finished her mission succesful and overthrows the unjust system of the Arbiter. It is clear that said system isn’t fair and needs a major rework. That is Sylvaans’ true goal and I fully understand her motives are the right ones. I would doe the same if the system screwed me over like that.

  18. #118
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    From the looks at it, everyone goes to Revendreth if they were evil when they died, unless their being free presents an active threat to the Shadowlands. You only go to the maw if you meet the prior criteria, you refuse purgatory in Revendreth, or you fail your tasks and cannot or will not reform under the Venthyr's guidance and trials.

    Thing is, Sylvanas is actively posing a threat to the Shadowlands by working with the Jailer. If she dies and is sent before the Aribter, I think she may very well be sent directly to the Maw because of this. She's already a proven threat. If she splits with the Jailer before her death, she'll probably spend a few centuries in Revendreth scrubbing her slate clean.
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  19. #119
    Sylvanas deserves to be a raid boss for me to beat the ever-unliving fuck outta.

    Seriously tho: I hope she gets trapped somewhere in the Maw. Would be peak irony.

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    I think Sylvanas went into the Maw simply because of the proximity of the veil between life and death. After all, Torghast is very close to Icecrown Citadel. I guess because of that her soul was just sucked into the Maw by default (Frostmourne being destroyed and countless souls being released could also mess the things up), not letting the Kyrian a chance to fetch her. Keep in mind that in Arthas' case, Devos and Uther specifically waited for him to die so they were able to intercept his soul instantly.

    As for the souls being released out of Frostmourne, since it's Maw magic that powered it, I guess all of the souls went straight into the Maw after they were released (you can even see it visually as them floating above ICC where the veil and Torghast is) and Sylvanas soul just joined the stream of souls when she killed herself by default. Then the Jailer felt a powerful soul came and decided to use it for his own needs.
    I think Nobbel87 understands this better than you - or me, and obviously we'll find out more soon, but he surmised that what might actually happen is everyone goes before the Arbiter to be judged, but we don't remember that part. For instance, Uther doesn't remember it and is suddenly being whisked off and told how he was chosen to be in Bastion, yet he didn't know.

    I think the Arbiter had already decided Sylvanas should go to Revendreth, now whether or not that's missing from the older part of the story, or maybe she doesn't remember it, she obviously ended up in the Maw and something is very much amiss.

    Something doesn't quite add up... unless you're right and she got sucked straight into the Maw, which is possible, I suppose if the Jailer saw her and liked her and somehow had the ability... hmmm...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

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