Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[enigma77]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

So if you play little and try to be a solo player in a multiplayer game you're screwed?

And that's the reason you want to destroy raider.io for everybody else?

[Very rare pepe]

I'll make the example slightly more relevant to those players smashing keys above and beyond by increasing all the values:

Example: I have an M+12 key and 450 raider.io score: OM:J+8 3-chest, OM:W+10 1-chest, KR+12 1-chest and SoB+15 completed, but failed timer. I'm 460 DPS looking for 455.

You would change your opinion, even though it's exactly the same situation scaled up?

There are enough anti-raider IO guys out their to fill your group though if you don't want to up your score in your little scenario. People like to play with like minded people, Raider IO helps facilitate that in most cases.

[Wuusah]

I'll make the example slightly more relevant to those players smashing keys above and beyond by increasing all the values:

Example: I have an M+12 key and 450 raider.io score: OM:J+8 3-chest, OM:W+10 1-chest, KR+12 1-chest and SoB+15 completed, but failed timer. I'm 460 DPS looking for 455.

You would change your opinion, even though it's exactly the same situation scaled up?

Depends. What key are you going? If you have 0 experience in that +12 then I wouldn’t join.
Because the situation is scaled up, it’s not the same situation anymore. 12 punishes harder than 8. It’s reasonable to expect a baseline of experience in that dungeon when you go into 10+ keys.
I wouldn’t care about your total rio score, though. That one doesn’t really matter all that much sub 15

[LDancer]

I personally detest IO. Always have and always will. But it unfortunately is a necessary evil that most players wanting their 15 key not wasted will rely on.

I might be for it’s complete removal if blizz implements a system in which a person who quits a key mid way through cos it’s not going smoothly is penalised.

Lock them out of M+ for a 24 hour period if they abandon a group, and maybe people will be more inclined to work harder in completing it and not try get an easy carry. The added effect is these leavers won’t be able to sign up for other’s keys and wreck those for that time frame

[Firebert]

So if you play little and try to be a solo player in a multiplayer game you're screwed?

And that's the reason you want to destroy raider.io for everybody else?

The converse (if you play loads and want to force the game to be multiplayer you're screwing over other players) is true.

There are enough anti-raider IO guys out their to fill your group though if you don't want to up your score in your little scenario. People like to play with like minded people, Raider IO helps facilitate that in most cases.

Oh, I don't care about my score. The problem is that others care about score too much. In that case, raider.io does the opposite of facilitating group creation of like-minded people.

I'm more intrigued that you would hold a contradictory opinion.

[david0925]

My point is that raider IO should do more, not outright remove it. Because like the guy I quoted said, he won't accept people to a 12-13+ key unless they have an overqualified score. Why is that? Wouldn't you think if someone has a 1500 io score, that they'd be more than competent to do a dungeon that wouldn't improve their score? It's because an io score alone doesn't depict how well someone performs. Like what someone else said, if someone has a 7000+ score, chances are they're good because you can't really carry anyone at that level, but you can carry people through +15's all day long. As a result, you end up with people requesting io scores WAY higher than what the dungeon would actually provide. It's using the assumption that a higher score = better player. And what I'm mainly getting at is that there's more metrics out there available to more accurately measure how well someone performs. What I'm saying is that raider io should look into adapting these metrics and applying it to their system. That way you can still see what experience people have and you can see how well someone performs on an individual level. My main point is that raider io could be better.

If there are more complex algorithms that let you catch more false positives (positive being "good players" and negatives being "bad players"), I think it's good, but right now as long as it's letting more true positives through than true negatives, I think it's a net gain than having no filter.

Raider.io is essentially a kind of filter, as with any other methods you use such as armory, achievements, ilvl etc, even if it brings my odds of getting a good player from 50% to 55%, that's a plus in my eyes. But people are calling it to be removed and one reason they offer is that it can have too many false results. Well, if they can show that the net result of that brings it down to under 50% (essentially worse than coin flipping), I think it's better.

[enigma77]

The converse (if you play loads and want to force the game to be multiplayer you're screwing over other players) is true.

No, it's not.

Here's why: If I go to a McDonalds, I don't expect them to serve me caviar and oysters.

If I play a massively multiplayer online rpg, I don't expect to play a single player game.

[Firebert]

I might be for it’s complete removal if blizz implements a system in which a person who quits a key mid way through cos it’s not going smoothly is penalised.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but they should change M+ such that all players' keys are depleted if you fail the timer, and the first player to leave also has their key depleted. Players joining groups without risking anything enables such behaviour.

Anything that will move M+ closer to the LFD tool is a win for me.

Here's why: If I go to a McDonalds, I don't expect them to serve me caviar and oysters.

If I play a massively multiplayer online rpg, I don't expect to play a single player game.

Playing a game is not analogous to serving food.

But sometimes it leaves a bad aftertaste.

You shouldn't be eating MMORPGs.

[enigma77]

I've mentioned this in another thread, but they should change M+ such that all players' keys are depleted if you fail the timer, and the first player to leave also has their key depleted. Players joining groups without risking anything enables such behaviour.

Anything that will move M+ closer to the LFD tool is a win for me.


Playing a game is not analogous to serving food.

But sometimes it leaves a bad aftertaste.

[Twdft]

I personally detest IO. Always have and always will. But it unfortunately is a necessary evil that most players wanting their 15 key not wasted will rely on.

I might be for it’s complete removal if blizz implements a system in which a person who quits a key mid way through cos it’s not going smoothly is penalised.

Lock them out of M+ for a 24 hour period if they abandon a group, and maybe people will be more inclined to work harder in completing it and not try get an easy carry. The added effect is these leavers won’t be able to sign up for other’s keys and wreck those for that time frame

When working on our keymaster achievement my group would go into a +16 and push to the endboss to excercise. If it didn't look like being timed we abandoned the key and went right back into +15 and timed that. That would not be possible with your idea.

You can not have automatic punishments in manual groups. Also, people would just afk instead of leaving. You wanna play chicken who is the first to leave and take a 24h ban in a key gone wrong?

[Firebert]

You can not have automatic punishments in manual groups. Also, people would just afk instead of leaving.

Initiate vote kick? I mean, I'm against a lockout period.

[T-34]

Oh, I don't care about my score. The problem is that others care about score too much. In that case, raider.io does the opposite of facilitating group creation of like-minded people.

Who gave you the right to decide how much others are allowed to "care about their" score?
And what on Earth does "others care about their score too much" even mean?

I hate transmog as I find transmog as sissy as My Little Pony, but I don't go along telling other players that they "care too much about how their character looks".
Your enjoyment of the game would be much greater if you would stop worrying so much about how other people play the game. Just accept that some people don't want to play with you.

[Firebert]

Who gave you the right to decide how much others are allowed to "care about their" score?

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

[Depakote]

It's almost like Mythic+ is the real problem, systems like raider io and gearscore just make the problem worse.

[Eapoe]

But here's the problem, how can a player get into a +15 group with a low (or non-existent) r.io score? Especially if that player is without a guild or a community group (aka friends) that runs M+.

One of the issues of how r.io is used is that generally speaking group leaders heavily factor their decision process on a player's r.io score. And if you're on the low end, then you're never going to get picked.

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up. Which normally is fine but to a player who has limited time to play, higher M+ may be inaccessible to them.

The extremely obvious solution to every one of your points is simply: build your own groups. Use the tool people are complaining about, Raider.io, and post your keys and make groups from them.

[Caerrona]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

Do dungeon > score goes up > do another dungeon > score goes up > now you have io.

Stop being lazy and trying to force people to carry you with random match making.

[Stardrift]

Honestly I'm pretty fed up with the m+ scene. At this point I think being able to run with NPC AI party members for M+ would be good thing for game (assuming it can perform at an acceptable level). Eliminates many of the issues people have with the system such as not being able to find tanks, not getting invited into groups etc. Let people play the game, if they can't clear it with the bots then tough luck and get good, but people shouldn't have to jump through a hoop of fire to get into a dungeon group.

I refused to do M+ after a while. The community surrounding it is just repulsive. Bunch of elitist nerds needing to be carried, and can hardly carry their own weight during LFR. Just about all of them.

Doing it with a guild is just fine but it gets stale as shit wearing the same armour and trinkets all throughout the expansion. But the gear is too good to ignore as raids offer trash in comparison. Not to mention how the dungeons are designed to be long hallways full of trash mobs after trash mobs to artificially increase the time spent doing a dungeon.

M+ will be a stain until Blizz finally buries it in a grave.

[Eapoe]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

Over relied upon or not, it’s still a valuable tool that lets people find other players in a way that shows a higher likelihood of finishing the content under the conditions the leader wants.
There is no misuse of the system if a person uses it how they want, which is picking people based off the score they have. In even better examples, people will check score along with that specific dungeon time and rank. Most people I’ve found who dislike raider.io are those who just don’t do m+ at high keys and believe they can, or those who want to be carried.

[Lubefist]

It's almost like Mythic+ is the real problem, systems like raider io and gearscore just make the problem worse.

Easiest fix in the world: Don't fucking do them.

[Wuusah]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

Why do you think it's an issue if people set high requirements for their group? Isn't it my right to decide who to invite into my group? If I want to go into Antorus now and decide to only pick 12/12 Mythic Nyalotha players, isn't it my right to do so? If I set the bar too high, then nobody will join my group and I'll have wasted my time searching. But it's my right to set the bar wherever I want. If I only want to take 3k rio players into my +10, then why do you care? It has nothing to do with you.

I really don't understand your logic with this "people can't be trusted with this power, so make it automated" idea. People CAN be trusted with this power. Everyone can make their own group and set the bar wherever they feel like putting it. This mentality that you think you have a right to join anyone's group baffles me. I've seen people like you in Classic so often. People made groups with special rules where specific items were locked. That is absolutely their right. If you don't like the rules, then don't join the group. Make your own group. But people complained about how toxic that is. It's not toxic. It's their group and their rules. You don't get to dictate how other people have to play the game. If you don't like how they play, you simply ignore them and do your own thing. Going on the forums and complaining about other players playing the game their way, that's the real toxicity.