Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Lubefist]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

Without RIO you would only get rejected slower since it takes more to time to go check peoples armory.

Why do you think it's an issue if people set high requirements for their group? Isn't it my right to decide who to invite into my group? If I want to go into Antorus now and decide to only pick 12/12 Mythic Nyalotha players, isn't it my right to do so? If I set the bar too high, then nobody will join my group and I'll have wasted my time searching. But it's my right to set the bar wherever I want. If I only want to take 3k rio players into my +10, then why do you care? It has nothing to do with you.

I really don't understand your logic with this "people can't be trusted with this power, so make it automated" idea. People CAN be trusted with this power. Everyone can make their own group and set the bar wherever they feel like putting it. This mentality that you think you have a right to join anyone's group baffles me. I've seen people like you in Classic so often. People made groups with special rules where specific items were locked. That is absolutely their right. If you don't like the rules, then don't join the group. Make your own group. But people complained about how toxic that is. It's not toxic. It's their group and their rules. You don't get to dictate how other people have to play the game. If you don't like how they play, you simply ignore them and do your own thing. Going on the forums and complaining about other players playing the game their way, that's the real toxicity.

Real talk right here.

[LDancer]

M+ will be a stain until Blizz finally buries it in a grave.

Could not agree more. Bring back CMs for those of us interested in a bit of a challenge, a reason to level and get multiple alts up.

[T-34]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

The more I read this thread the more happy I am that Blizzard fully supports my way of playing the game and doesn't support your way in any form whatsoever:

Blizzard gives me the full right to invite whomever I want to my group.
Blizzard gives me the full right to remove whomever I want from my group, for any reason whatsoever.

I would suggest that you go play FFXIV with its strict enforcment of mandatory mediocrity. Sounds like a game for you.

[Kaver]

Yea, it still has zero reflection on personal skill. You can't look at a score and definitely know how good a player is, you just can't. You can assume, speculate and hope, but that still doesn't mean much. Just look at the guy who posted earlier saying he won't accept people with a 1500-1700 io score for 12-13+ keys, if that doesn't seem like an issue, then I think you're just biased.

When I play, the number one most important thing to me is out performing those around me. Not only do I want to be top damage overall, but I want to interrupt more than anyone else. I want to CC mobs with capacitor totem and sundering. I also consider timing it so that I can interrupt multiple mobs like the shield casting lizards in TD. Sometimes I'll let them cast and then quickly purge their bubbles. Nothing is more important to me than performing to the best of my ability and for the most part, I'm usually the best person in the keys I do.

But guess what, raider io doesn't record any of that. It doesn't take any skill into account. Like others mentioned, its just a reflection on experience, not skill. So if you want to avoid players like me based on assumptions you created in your head, go for it.

Experience and skill go hand in hand most of the time. I’m making my decisions based on statistics like every sane person would. Sure there might be a few exceptions to the rule but it’s still better than nothing. Most of the time it works as it should.

If you have a low Rio it’s because of one of the following reasons:

- you’re bad
- you’re lazy
- you only do the same dungeons
- you do M+ only for loot

I don’t care if you’re a good player. It doesn’t mean anything if you’re lazy or in experienced or loot focused. If you got a low Rio score then something is wrong with you in my world. Because Rio reflects your ambitions and experience with M+. Skill means nothing if the person got the wrong mind set.

And to be honest I don’t give a shit about people doing 12-13 keys. It’s as irrelevant to me as LFR is.

[LanToaster]

Because Rio reflects your ambitions and experience with M+. Skill means nothing if the person got the wrong mind set.

What If I buy in like the first week all Dungeons at 15? And still suck? ^^

[Kaver]

What If I buy in like the first week all Dungeons at 15? And still suck? ^^

Then you are one of the rare exceptions to the rule. You shouldn’t dimension systems based on the extreme scenarios.

[Very rare pepe]

It is obvious by empirical evidence that score is overrelied upon. Just look back through the thread. No rights have been given nor taken.

Transmog and M+ aren't analogous.

My enjoyment of the game would be much greater if my character's gear progression was not impeded by way of misuse of a 3rd party website or tool. Continued progression via this content should be rolled into the game by expanding on the tools already available (that is, LFD).

So you would be ok with blizzard.io? Is that what you are saying?

So if blizzard took raider.io and rolled it into the game, everyone now has a number next to their name in game, the exact same as raider.io currently but now blizzard run it instead? That would be fine? No 3rd party website or tool then

[FluffyWoW]

People who want raider.io to go because it is too elitism or they don't get invited to pugs, those are the ppl destroying your key because they bought a boost for their 15's weekly. Sorry but if raider.io would go ppl would look up the armory and still identify as a bad player. If you want a change then get used to higher keys and start timing them without paying for it.

[Lubefist]

Could not agree more. Bring back CMs for those of us interested in a bit of a challenge, a reason to level and get multiple alts up.

So because you don't enjoy feature in the game so it should be ruined for everyone? That's some next level selfishness right there.

I think pet battles are complete waste of time but I don't advocate for their removal. I just you know, choose not to do them.

[Sialina]

Wow is exactly like real life, where employers want a 10 year experienced employee yet pay him like you'd pay an intern.

Bad pug experiences stem from the fact group leaders don't want just adequate group members, they want overqualified ones, and they will still treat them like trash. For example there are pug raid leaders that will kick you because you didn't trade them your personal loot.

It's especially bad with tanks, a trash dps who just 120 boosted the character and wants to run some low level key will never accept a tank that isn't 5x better geared, knows the route and whatnot. And will whine he can't find any tanks. And if by chance he accepts a tank that is newbie and undergeared, will proceed to whine and rage at him that he doesn't provide him a "smooth run" while himself doing barely any more damage than the tank and never interrupting.

The shortage of tanks in low level content stems from exactly that, people proliferated the belief that unless you're pretty good geared and can take any mispull on your chest, you're unfit to tank. Which means even people who want to tank will do the low content as dps most of the time.

I would respectfully disagree.

I mainly tank nowadays, and I think there are 2 main reasons why people don't want to tank.

1. You have all eyes on you. As DPS you are part of a group, and if you made some mistake it's easier to "hide"
2. You do less DPS

I think reason 1 is the main reason people don't tank that much. It's daunting looking at a m+ dungeon, all the pulls, the bosses, everything, same in a raid. And there is noone to cover for your mistakes, it's just you and you alone, and if you mess up there is no hiding it.

Generally if you want to get into tank you either have to be part of the initial push, or you need to start off as a DPS and learn along the way.

RIO is perfectly fine by the way. The website/addon tells you all you need to know. You get an aggregate score, number of higher keys timed, specific completion for the dungeon you are looking for people for, and even what buffs/debuffs you cleared.

If I'm posting a 15 key I generally get 10000000 dps applying in seconds.

I will filter based on ilvl, score and if you played that specific dungeon before, but I won't be super picky, as soon as I see someone with a 14 or better cleared in the dungeon I'm running, off meta or not, I'll grab them.

If it's a 25 though, things change, then I'll make sure the person has completed at least a 24 with the current set of affixes, I'll check their experience in this specific dungeon, make sure they are someone that fits our class comp etc.

I think RIO does the opposite of what OP thinks it does. even if I'm looking for say.. a caster to complete my group, and all of a sudden an Spriest shows up with 5k score, hell yes I'm grabbing him, if you get to that score on Spriest you are AMAZING, of course I want to play with you.

[Twdft]

Over relied upon or not, it’s still a valuable tool that lets people find other players in a way that shows a higher likelihood of finishing the content under the conditions the leader wants.
There is no misuse of the system if a person uses it how they want, which is picking people based off the score they have. In even better examples, people will check score along with that specific dungeon time and rank. Most people I’ve found who dislike raider.io are those who just don’t do m+ at high keys and believe they can, or those who want to be carried.

What Firebert (and most people opposing r.io) refuses to acknowledge is that not every player is able to do the level of M+ they apply to, even if their character is ready for it. They just don't want to see that there is an actual reason to select who you want to play with.

[Bloodyleech]

Snip

About tanking:

Funny thing is: you don't need any exotic knowledge about a dungeon and how to pull each groups even on 15.
You can easily (no exaggeration) time a 15 key with single-group pulling.
All you need to know is where to go. Most dungeons don't have this problem at all, as those only have one way. Some use skips via spires, but these are only active on 10+.
As a newcomer tank you will not instantly go into these dungeons, so this problem is non existent.
For all keys below 10 it's totally fine to pull slower, maybe even LoS-pull (knowledge is needed for this, ofc), as you don't have a hard time reaching the end within the time.
Imo most people just have a problem to go into complete random groups. My guildmates don't even do simple m0's without me just because they fear those randoms.

About Rio:

I will filter based on ilvl, score and if you played that specific dungeon before, but I won't be super picky, as soon as I see someone with a 14 or better cleared in the dungeon I'm running, off meta or not, I'll grab them.

Exactly this is how you should use Rio. For my 15 ToS I don't care if someone did a 20 Sots in time, when he didn't do atleast a ToS 10-12 key, as the experience in THIS dungeon is needed, not another. This 20 Sots player may be very good (as 20+ isn't for everyone), but he may be a reason to fail the ToS 15 key.

[stresskiller]

if only raider io would show the behaviour of players .. like how often did he / she quit in middle of m+ or how often he / she use toxic language ... just to name some extra options

[ID811717]

About tanking:

Funny thing is: you don't need any exotic knowledge about a dungeon and how to pull each groups even on 15.
You can easily (no exaggeration) time a 15 key with single-group pulling.
All you need to know is where to go. Most dungeons don't have this problem at all, as those only have one way. Some use skips via spires, but these are only active on 10+.
As a newcomer tank you will not instantly go into these dungeons, so this problem is non existent.
For all keys below 10 it's totally fine to pull slower, maybe even LoS-pull (knowledge is needed for this, ofc), as you don't have a hard time reaching the end within the time.
Imo most people just have a problem to go into complete random groups. My guildmates don't even do simple m0's without me just because they fear those randoms.

What you say is correct even for +20 keys. They are zergable with little knowledge of anything.
But the person you quoted is also right. All eyes are on tank, and that puts additional pressure to be 100% there. As a healer or DPS, you can have brief moments of AFK during the dungeon (and still do insane overall damage) - no one will notice. As a tank, stopping for a short AFK between pulls feels impossible - because then I'm stalling 4 people!

Doesn't even have to be a true AFK moment. Say you want to open MDT mid-run and click around to check percentages (e.g. to see how to compensate for some ninja pulls) - it's harder to do that on a tank and not stall the entire group.

[JessicaJones]

I had no issue pugging to 3.5k on EU Alliance like 2 months ago. Im now 4.3 from pugging/playing with guildies on EU Horde - just to be clear, at the time 3.5k on Alliance was quite high score, right now the 4.3 that I'm sitting at is really low, I managed to do that without trying to do high keys - 1 or 2 keys on a weekend evening for instance. If you want to push your score then you should push your own keys or a friends. It's very hard to be invited to a LFG group unless you have done the dungeon before on a higher level or all your other keys are much higher - ie I had a 22FH at 4.2 so I got invited to a 24FH no questions asked.

Rio is not really that big an issue even for pugging 15s etc. To get 2.5k Rio to get invited to your weekly 15s is very easy, a good dps/tank can solo carry the entire group. If you aren't being invited to groups people should be looking at what they can improve rather than blaming others or systems. If I put a 22 in LFG and I have 2 people in the group that are the same rio or higher than me, I'm not gonna invite a 2.7k tank to a key that hes timed 4 levels lower because it is not relevant experience.

There is a real learning curve at a level 11, 15, 18, 22, 25. If you have done a 23 I will invite you for a 24 or 25, if you have done a 21/22 you're not gonna get an invite to the 24/25.

Raiderio is probably worse at lower levels, but it works both ways, I don't get invited to a weekly 15 because people say my rio is too high and I'm toxic. I'm not toxic, but I will point out if you make your 2nd or 3rd mistake thats causing us to wipe and people don't wanna hear it - these are usually the same people moaning about their rio being too low.

Also, tanks that say, you pull it you tank it are the worst kind of people. As a tank you should be doing everything in your power to get all aggro and stop your group members dying.

Being bad is just as toxic as name calling etc, I will say I'm never the first person to leave the group as I think we should always try and finish the dungeon. Sometimes though, on a 22+ KR Tyrannical, if you wipe first boss with lust, that's probably the key - but the entire group tends to be aware if that happens.

I haven't found m+ to be that toxic, most people at higher rio understand when theyve fucked up and that being called shit is someone just blowing off steam, if you're not good at a video game it doesn't matter at all, but don't waste other people's time by pretending you are good.

[Bloodyleech]

What you say is correct even for +20 keys. They are zergable with little knowledge of anything.
But the person you quoted is also right. All eyes are on tank, and that puts additional pressure to be 100% there. As a healer or DPS, you can have brief moments of AFK during the dungeon (and still do insane overall damage) - no one will notice. As a tank, stopping for a short AFK between pulls feels impossible - because then I'm stalling 4 people!

Yeah ofc, if the tank does a mistake everyone knows it was him, that's absolutely right!
But for the afk example: no one in the group is allowed to afk in timed content (or infight) and I instantly call these people out.
Outside of M+, these people either play like an online game with other humans is supposed to be played, or they are kicked.
It's sadly harder in M+, but i haven't seen this stuff happening yet - but that's probably me being lucky.

(you can afk in pulls as tank, if you know yourself and the trash/boss you are fighting! Using shieldblock as warrior is 6 sec free afk, depending on situation ofc.)

- - - Updated - - -

Also, tanks that say, you pull it you tank it are the worst kind of people. As a tank you should be doing everything in your power to get all aggro and stop your group members dying.

I just have to thank you for saying this.

[Rucati]

I haven't found m+ to be that toxic, most people at higher rio understand when theyve fucked up and that being called shit is someone just blowing off steam, if you're not good at a video game it doesn't matter at all, but don't waste other people's time by pretending you are good.

I've found exactly the same. If you're in anything past say a +20 and someone dies everyone knows what killed them, including the person who died. Nobody really calls them out on it (other than to laugh at them) and it usually isn't very toxic at all.

Like I think everyone that consistently does high keys understands that sometimes you just get one shot by something, and sometimes you wipe on a boss and the key is dead. It's not usually that big of a deal.

I think the reason people think m+ is toxic is because they're stuck doing +10s where nobody in the group wants to take responsibility and everyone thinks they belong in +15s. So if a key dies in a +10 people start pointing fingers and blaming because they refuse to believe they it was their own fault. But if the same thing happens in a +20 everyone kind of just moves on and tries again with a different key.

Honestly I think raider io fixes a lot, it allows high keys to be only competent players that understand the game, but it also gives people doing lower keys something to work towards. If you want to be invited to +15 groups you need to prove you can consistently clear +10s at least, and that's exactly what r.io does. But it does create toxicity at a lower key level because of a lack of understanding of the game.

[LanToaster]

Then you are one of the rare exceptions to the rule. You shouldn’t dimension systems based on the extreme scenarios.

Still any exception warrants a though of how you could Improve the system.

[Kaver]

Still any exception warrants a though of how you could Improve the system.

No it doesn’t. A system doesn’t need to be 100% perfect. It works the vast majority of times and that’s fine.

[LanToaster]

Also, tanks that say, you pull it you tank it are the worst kind of people. As a tank you should be doing everything in your power to get all aggro and stop your group members dying.

Being bad is just as toxic as name calling etc, ...

Did you ever woner why Tanks adept that Mentality? If you as DD, or not Group Leader decide to pull stuff, you are sabotaging the Run.
Worst case is the Tank pulls a Different Group, you end up with more than the Tank can Handle, and you wipe.

Who gets the Blame? The Tank. Period. So: You Pull it, You Tank it. Have a bit respect for your Players.

The second part is Exceptionaly Elitist, beeing a Jerk, and beeing Toxic is a Choice, beeing "Not as Good as you", is not.
I play with alot of people who perform way less than me, some would call them Bad. But why should that be "Toxic"?

You can have fun with Bad players, aswell as have fun with Good players.

As a healer or DPS, you can have brief moments of AFK during the dungeon (and still do insane overall damage) - no one will notice. As a tank, stopping for a short AFK between pulls feels impossible - because then I'm stalling 4 people!

Doesn't even have to be a true AFK moment. Say you want to open MDT mid-run and click around to check percentages (e.g. to see how to compensate for some ninja pulls) - it's harder to do that on a tank a not ndstall the entire group.

Thats interesting, I never really thought about that, though I would add some things.

First, as Tank Main, I usually notice when People are AFK between Pulls, (maybe that comes from the time where Tanks didnt have as much self sustain) I usually keep a good look about if my Heal is in Range (especially in Pugs, in Premades there is much more trust). And the same way I notice when DPS dont move, and with my DamageMeter usually on "Current Fight", I also notice if people slack in single fights.

I dont really mind it though, (unless some random schmoe is AFK the entire dungeon) its a game, and always people can get distracted, need a drink or whatever.

But I agree with you, while Infight a Tank can slack a bit more, as soon as you need to focus elsewhere out of Fight the feeling of "Everyone waits for me" creeps up really really fast.

- - - Updated - - -

No it doesn’t. A system doesn’t need to be 100% perfect. It works the vast majority of times and that’s fine.

One should always strife for improvement.