How will socialism in the US be different from other failed attempts at socialism?

[Zan15]

First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.

unless you are +65 or a vet...then you get a whole lot of socialism thanks to the other 225 million people in this country.

[Vorkreist]

Did you know that in Romania most people believe that life was better under communism?

Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.

An ongoing battle between the prime minister and the president amid a tanking economy has left many Romanians longing for a return to communism because they think the democratic and free-market reforms of the past two decades have failed.

The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.

[Thee ANCOM]

Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.



The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.

this is nothing but an argument that unaddressed corruption is bad regardless of the sytem it's in.

[Vorkreist]

Socialist policies are employed everywhere in the first world with great success, free education, single payer healthcare, unemployment benefits, you name it.

Canada, Germany, France, UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...

That doesn't seem to be enough for the neo commie people. You must seize the means of reproduction!

[Theodarzna]

That doesn't seem to be enough for the neo commie people. You must seize the means of reproduction!

I find this discourse about Socialism to be fascinating. Like, every single hiccup, fuck up, fart and short coming in any Socialist State is instantly an indictment of Marx, people suddenly become hyper attuned to systemic processes and blaming a system for anything. But in America or any Capitalist State, any and all bad things suddenly are matters of personal responsibility and individual choice.

Stalin sends people to the gulag and kills a lot of people or Mao decides to wipe out a bird species and its suddenly as if they conjured Marx from beyond the grave with a ouija board and Marx told them to do it. But if a cop shoots someone seven times in the back, its either because black people are just always making bad choices and responsible for their fate, or cops are just riddled/infected with racist pathologies and are responsible personally and must be punished. This is a very interesting selective decision to hyper assign culpability for failure to a system when its an enemy, but internal problems always come down to bad people and their tainted souls one way or another.

[Vorkreist]

this is nothing but an argument that unaddressed corruption is bad regardless of the sytem it's in.

Oh look some one else to likes to throw under a rug the catastrophe caused by communism. It was just unaddressed corruption right?

[Thee ANCOM]

Oh look some one else to likes to throw under a rug the catastrophe caused by communism. It was just unaddressed corruption right?

what are you even talking about? do you honestly think corruption is unique to "communism" or something? clearly that's not true given you admit it exists outside of it.

[Doctor Amadeus]

First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.

Not really, keep in mind I am not pro capitalism either, I mean I am a capitalist. But no sorry the life I have and afford has had nothing to do with socialism at all, that is NOT to say I did it all on my own because I didn't.

I grew up poor as fuck, and if it wasn't for a church friend who was a mentor to me, I wouldn't have had many of the opportunities that I would EARN. That's the key though, I was given the opportunity to EARN, I wasn't given.

Non of that was due to socialism.


Now I think it would be more accurate to say that the portions of socialism we all enjoy over all are because of the capitalism that feeds it and allows for it, but we don't now live in socialism and never have.

Trust me I do realize that parts of socialism we use aren't bad, but the problem is saying socialism works, is the same as saying capitalism is working. And it isn't.


The difference between the two is Capitalism has worked, Socialism has not. Although Capitalism is now failing and IF capitalism falls the socialism you are suggesting would go along with it.

If Capitalism can be saved or made to work better, then some components you mentioned as socialism are needed.

Social Security isn't the the right thing to do it's the smartest thing to do.

Medicare 4 All or a Public Option aren't just the smartest Ideas, they are going to be required.

Universal Basic Income isn't just a good idea, it is also going to be a must.


You don't have to sell these things, the sell themselves to anybody who knows what is going on. I however still wouldn't say that socialism or capitalism.


I would argue the bold to my dying breath, not sure we are ready to make that change yet, but then again I don't think it will matter if we are ready, society must evolve.

[SirBeef]

[QUOTE=Theodarzna;52606853]

EDIT: I read the last paragraph wrong.

[Theodarzna]

EDIT: I read the last paragraph wrong.

S'all good, sometimes I type faster than I think and am happy to clarify anything.

[SirBeef]

S'all good, sometimes I type faster than I think and am happy to clarify anything.

It's all good, I read it as a both sides thing of people complaining about the other side, but the examples given are typical complaints of one side.. But that wasn't the point. It was more of a generalization of bad system over there vs bad people over here.

[Kellhound]

Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.

Show me where in my statement I made any of the absolutes you are accusing me of making? Do you not understand that self reliance and self determination are not binary concepts? That one can reduce or increase either without reaching the extremes?

Math is of little concern to most people, as is logic in general. Humans tend to be ruled by emotion.

[Zython]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

Well, the US is unlikely to impose sanctions or engineer a coup against itself.

- - - Updated - - -

Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.



The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.

"Capitalism cannot fail. It can only be failed."

[Felya]

Math is of little concern to most people, as is logic in general. Humans tend to be ruled by emotion.

Most people are marks... none the less, the above, as you said, is a generalization. The people who rule with emotion, make their case through logic of populism, which inherently requires math to determine the populace. People need to be swayed from logic by emotion, it doesn’t mean they are ruled by it. It takes a lot of money and a lot of work... marketing is a field for a reason.

Edit: Something like “death tax” appeals to emotion, but it took a lot of focus groups, a lot of logic and math, to come up with a slogan that would make the unwashed masses, defend an estate tax. If we were simply ruled by emotion, the process would be much simpler... you need to strike the right chord, to make people give up logic.

[Kellhound]

Most people are marks... none the less, the above, as you said, is a generalization. The people who rule with emotion, make their case through logic of populism, which inherently requires math to determine the populace. People need to be swayed from logic by emotion, it doesn’t mean they are ruled by it. It takes a lot of money and a lot of work... marketing is a field for a reason.

Edit: Something like “death tax” appeals to emotion, but it took a lot of focus groups, a lot of logic and math, to come up with a slogan that would make the unwashed masses, defend an estate tax. If we were simply ruled by emotion, the process would be much simpler... you need to strike the right chord, to make people give up logic.

Advertising does not use logic because it is weak and has a small target audience. The real cost in advertisement is trying to counter one emotion with another, not overcoming logic.

[CostinR]

Did you know that in Romania most people believe that life was better under communism?

Completely off-topic but I felt the need to respond here.

Did you know of anything related to the political context and situation in which that very poll was taken exactly? Over eight years ago?

Because if you don't here's what was happening back then let me give you the context if you're interested to understand why people might have been feeling nostalgic back then about the communist era.

In 2010 the economic crisis hits us pretty hard, in response the government implement austerity across the board, a lot of people lose their jobs, wages are cut by 25%, and the government even attempts to cut pensions before the Constitutional Court stops them.

Meanwhile our very corrupt president, that was responsible for all of this who had rigged the last presidential election in his favor, was openly stealing billions of dollars.

Fast forward to 2012, the same president tries to push a privatization scheme for health care system including privatizing our emergency health care system. This causes one of the most widely respected medical experts, who had helped build the entire system, to go on national TV and declare the proposal would destroy emergency healthcare in Romania.

Our president fires him. The equivalent in US politics would be if Trump had fired Anthony Fauci anytime he disagreed with the narrative pushed by the White House. Romanians explode in anger and protest in the dead of winter. The Prime Minister, our president's puppet, is forced to resign. The president is impeached by parliament but removal requires a referendum and despite it passing with over 80% of those who voted being in favor of removal our president stays in power on a technicality ( and by rigging it, complete with foreign interference too ).

This is a very simplistic take, and I am glossing over a lot of thing but perhaps you might understand why people weren't really feeling fond of democracy at that particular time after what had just happened.

If people in Eastern Europe are feeling nostalgic about communism it sure as hell ain't because it was great, EVERYONE I've ever talked to that lived through it about this universally agrees it was a horrible time to live through, but rather because the road to democracy after 1989 wasn't all sunshine either.

[Kaleredar]

I'm not currently aware of any major US politician proposing the US change its model to socialism.

Could you enlighten me as to who these politicians are, @the game?


...maybe once you get back from your ban, of course.

Because if none are, you really might as well be asking if the US would be a better place for a unicorn cave than North korea.

[nonameelf]

America doesn't need to be socialist. What it needs is for medical care and medication to not have absolutely insane markup costs. Fix that problem and insurance will at least be affordable for people under the ACA. Or better yet, fix that problem and we can implement Medicare for All and SAVE MONEY.

Social programs are not socialism. Only complete fucking morons think social programs are socialism.

There is absolutely no reason at all for American healthcare to cost as much as it does.

[Forogil]

I'm not currently aware of any major US politician proposing the US change its model to socialism.

To help your awareness.

There is an organization with that on the agenda:

The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. DSA believes that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few.

Some well-known politicians in the US are members - whether you classify them as "major" depends on your perspective, and one would assume that they know what they have joined.

Obviously the major presidential candidates aren't members (Bernie isn't either - he is not that organized), but there is something odd (I don't see Trump using socialism for everything and not knowing what it means as odd):

Searching for "socialism" on https://joebiden.com/ finds NOTHING (except one hit for a pdf document from Biden-Sanders where the word is missing - I assume it was part of meta-information). The likely explanation is that the electoral system in the US means that Biden keeps silent about socialism to not push socialists away.

[jonnysensible]

America doesn't need to be socialist. What it needs is for medical care and medication to not have absolutely insane markup costs. Fix that problem and insurance will at least be affordable for people under the ACA. Or better yet, fix that problem and we can implement Medicare for All and SAVE MONEY.

Social programs are not socialism. Only complete fucking morons think social programs are socialism.

There is absolutely no reason at all for American healthcare to cost as much as it does.

capitalism cant sustain its profits longterm and the planet cant sustain capitalism long term. capitalism must go, socalism is the next step.