BiS Covenant for each Class / Spec

[Arthilian]

The difference between covenants will no way be as insignificant as the difference between racials. Maybe i'd give them the benefit of the doubt if Soulbinds were class specific aswell, so they could balance each class' soulbinds compared to their abilities, but they're not and I somehow doubt something like Abom Limb which has utility attached to it will ever come close to DD in throughput, even though said utility is only useful in a small handful of scenarios.

[goldlock]

The OP you quoted has words ''get benched'' or ''love the bench'' in his every second post. He obviously gets thrill from ''threatening'' people on MMO champ that they will get benched if they pick wrong.

You are correct. Raid leaders won't have the luxury to seperate people that hard - mythic rosters are already a pain to keep. Our raid leader (we are a CE guild, but not in the upper echeleon) already said - pick what you prefer - happier raiders=better progression.

Mythic players will simply adapt to the system the same way glads will as others become unable to compete.Now you will be able to raid mythic regardless of choice but clear at a rate to get CE? Unlikely.

It isn't like some shadowy cabal of highend players will come together to stop you either. Assuming near equal skill the players with the right choices will always out perform those with the wrong choices. It is as simple as that. You are not going to change a mentality that has lasted fifteen years by making choices harder to undo.

[Nyel]

How are this "BiS" though? Not only do they ignore numbers but I get the feeling you didn't actually try them out either.
If this is a list of what ones you think sound cool than thats fine but it's not a list of whats best.

Uhm, it's not? And it was never supposed to be and I even explicitly said the following things:

My decision, purely based on personal thoughts + I just looked at the skills and deemed them the most likeable etc., never looked up numbers for them

Don't know why people have such a hard time with reading comprehesion. I want to know if there's already a BiS list based on the newest beta iterations of the Covenant skills. I am not offering a BiS list, just my personal preference.

[Frolk]

Only looking at playing 1 char to begin with, DK, blood/unholy, Night Fae all day long, Deaths Due so good and the mobility skill is crazy good for dk, gonna mainly do M+
Get decent haste/mastery procs and a cheat death from night fae as well, i am curious how good it actually is.

[Aggrophobic]

Uhm, it's not? And it was never supposed to be and I even explicitly said the following things:

My decision, purely based on personal thoughts + I just looked at the skills and deemed them the most likeable etc., never looked up numbers for them

Don't know why people have such a hard time with reading comprehesion. I want to know if there's already a BiS list based on the newest beta iterations of the Covenant skills. I am not offering a BiS list, just my personal preference.

You litterally called it "BiS" though.

[Boricha]

Numerous classes do have clear BiS covenants, but I would wait at least until pre-patch is live before assuming they won't be tuned more.

[Nyel]

You litterally called it "BiS" though.

I never called my personal preference list BiS.

[Elias01]

Numerous classes do have clear BiS covenants, but I would wait at least until pre-patch is live before assuming they won't be tuned more.

They dont. Its all speculation and nothing but bunch of opnions of players what only thing they do is comparing covenant skills. Completly ignoring conduits/legos and most importantly raid and dungeon boss mechanics. All this creates dynamic where what people think is super bad covenant for their class will actualy end up pretty good choice.

[Boricha]

They dont. Its all speculation and nothing but bunch of opnions of players what only thing they do is comparing covenant skills. Completly ignoring conduits/legos and most importantly raid and dungeon boss mechanics. All this creates dynamic where what people think is super bad covenant for their class will actualy end up pretty good choice.

Legos are not tied to covenants, and all bosses and conduits/soulbinds have been tested. Like I said, it's not worth settling on a covenant right now because we are still in the tuning phase, but if the expansion were to launch today then some classes would have a clear bis for those who do high end content.

[Nuciek]

They dont. Its all speculation and nothing but bunch of opnions of players what only thing they do is comparing covenant skills. Completly ignoring conduits/legos and most importantly raid and dungeon boss mechanics. All this creates dynamic where what people think is super bad covenant for their class will actualy end up pretty good choice.

This. So far it's only speculations and so many factors come in play that it's not a clear choice, and even if we do the math right now, a simple buff to "terrible" covenant can change it to BiS pretty quickly.

[facefist]

If the disparity is 20% between covenants we re discussing about a broken system then. I surely hope this is not the case. Ofc the numbers I put down were just an example, I mean in my mind the acceptable difference between covenants is like the difference in facials. More than that can be game breaking.

The difference will be muchmuch bigger than racials. Atm they are gamebreaking for sure - as in the sense if you want to be in a serious raid group you will be locked into one covenant, which will lock you out of serious m+ group. The difference is too big to be able to compete in both.

Note: this is not the case for every class and spec. But the outcry will be enormous if they dont fix those classes suffering from this.

In case people havent realized, players are super elitist even in low m+ keys. That's why Rio exists, and that's why you will spend an hour looking for group if your Rio score is low. Just wait and see Rio track covenants and people with the "wrong" covenant not being invited.

And I understand the former perfectly well. Even if the difference is like 3%, it tells about the player if he prefers cosmetics over performance. People who want to perform tend to perform better.

[Aggrophobic]

I never called my personal preference list BiS.

The whole thread is named "BiS-Covenant-for-each-Class-Spec".
Your thread.

[Ersula]

Legos are not tied to covenants, and all bosses and conduits/soulbinds have been tested. Like I said, it's not worth settling on a covenant right now because we are still in the tuning phase, but if the expansion were to launch today then some classes would have a clear bis for those who do high end content.

And as Blizzard intends, players who are choosing covenants based on personal aesthetic taste are going to have the best time here, because history tells us the "clear choice" is what gets nerfed once they see everyone picking it, and then remained nerfed for the rest of the expansion. I know the players who are going to get screwed over by that will consider that a game problem, but really it's a you problem, because they're not going to fix that.

[Donovan4893]

The whole thread is named "BiS-Covenant-for-each-Class-Spec".
Your thread.

Maybe read the actual post and not just the title? They literally say they are asking if there is a list of bis covenants for each spec and although they are not deciding their covenant on BiS they are just wondering. Then go on to say which one they are picking based solely on play style not numbers aka not calling it BiS.

[Aggrophobic]

Maybe read the actual post and not just the title? They literally say they are asking if there is a list of bis covenants for each spec and although they are not deciding their covenant on BiS they are just wondering. Then go on to say which one they are picking based solely on play style not numbers aka not calling it BiS.

Yeah and the ones picked were far from BiS.
Now he knows.

[Beuargh]

Uhm, it's not? And it was never supposed to be and I even explicitly said the following things:

My decision, purely based on personal thoughts + I just looked at the skills and deemed them the most likeable etc., never looked up numbers for them

Don't know why people have such a hard time with reading comprehesion. I want to know if there's already a BiS list based on the newest beta iterations of the Covenant skills. I am not offering a BiS list, just my personal preference.

then, if you want to talk B.I.S. (title of the thread), what was the point of posting your list "purely based on personal thoughts without looking at numbers"?? I mean, it's completely off topic in the op of your own thread.... don't be surprised if people are confused. they read the title, they see your list.... et voila.

you want to know if there's already a BiS list? fine... now, what are we suppose to do with your damn list? it's 3/4 of your op .....

[pewpmeiser]

the best in slot covenant is the one that fits your playstyle and spec needs best -- thats it, min/maxing between all these things is going to be grossly irrelevant in the big picture for what makes or breaks things on the competitive front. just use what sounds cool.

[Khallid]

I don't know what you people don't get. Neither am I making any suggestions nor have I said that my picks are BiS. I mentioned it twice now that I don't care about the BiS combinations for myself as I base my pick not on numbers but on gameplay / fun / style or what fits my vision of my characters best.

Nevertheless I am interested to see what the general consensus on BiS Covenants is (not to base my decision on that, just out of curiosity).

That comes off as contradictory and confusing. There's a very strict definition of what BiS is supposed to mean. BiS is the absolute best for that slot that you never need to switch. There's no ambiguity involved. Using the term BiS for any other meaning doesn't work.

Therefore, listing your favorites essentially contradicts the title of the thread. It's not surprising people would not react the way you wanted.

[Boricha]

And as Blizzard intends, players who are choosing covenants based on personal aesthetic taste are going to have the best time here, because history tells us the "clear choice" is what gets nerfed once they see everyone picking it, and then remained nerfed for the rest of the expansion. I know the players who are going to get screwed over by that will consider that a game problem, but really it's a you problem, because they're not going to fix that.

There's no guarantee that anything is nerfed afterwards though. Many talents have been BiS for all situations for several expansions. Azerite powers like blaster master and furious gaze were OP for all of BFA. Warlocks stacking haste corruptions has been hilariously broken all patch. You're right that this is an issue that only affects a small amount of players, but it is not something they can ignore in order to do their content. The difference between random rental powers and optimized ones is huge. The reason why Emerald Nightmare was steamrolled at the the start of Legion was because Blizz didn't tune the raid around optimized powers, but they have done so ever since. If Castle Nathria isn't tuned around people choosing the correct covenants, then it will be steamrolled as well.

For people who have no interest in progression raiding on any difficulty level, mid to high m+, or mid to high pvp, then this is an irrelevant topic. It will make no difference whether covenants are freely switchable, balanced, or not, because they don't need player power to do the content in the first place.

[exochaft]

the best in slot covenant is the one that fits your playstyle and spec needs best -- thats it, min/maxing between all these things is going to be grossly irrelevant in the big picture for what makes or breaks things on the competitive front. just use what sounds cool.

This is more in line with a good chunk of specs on the beta, as most comments I've read would likely be made by people who haven't played the beta or tested covenants under various scenarios. While there are certainly some outlying abilities that need adjustments, things are more in line than most people probably realize.

If we're coming down with the "whatever sims best!" as the option, reality is that even preliminary simming for some classes/specs have a different 'BiS' covenant depending upon the scenario. That's actually a good thing, and it's not even taking into account soulbinds yet, which vary greatly and can alter your power quite a bit. There's so much focus on the class abilities that the soulbinds get lost in the ether, when they're a large portion of your power output. Furthermore, signature abilities also have inherent power, it's just way harder to sim. Utility is by far the most important aspect when it comes to making decisions for content, and almost none of this is thought of by your average person looking for 'BiS'.

If you think the damage done by class abilities in covenants is going to be the sole deciding factor (or even the most important factor) when it comes to picking a covenant from a min/max perspective, you've likely never been a serious hardcore mythic raider. Even world first people are saying having 2-3% output variance between these spells doesn't matter to them. The only reason you see a bunch of them advocating for freely switching covenants with no cost is because that just want to make their lives easier for the world first races to min/max every fight, a decision that doesn't factor into nor is good for the health of the game. Truth be told, I guarantee the world first crowd could pick any covenant for any spec/class they choose and still beat all the content undergeared before most raids even come close to clearing the raid. I've found it quite ironic that a lot of players say they're tired of Blizz 'balancing the game around the 1%', while simultaneously wanting to implement what the 1% wants and not understanding why the top 1% is asking for said requests.

Don't get me wrong, there are still some severe outlying balance issues that need to be addressed where there's only one answer by such a large margin that no other external factors will shift the balance. Blizz has been squashing these as the beta goes on, so we still have time to make adjustments as the numbers passes begin. However, such extreme scenarios are not as common as people are claiming, and most people will be absolutely fine just picking a covenant for whatever reason they want. You want it all? Start leveling alts so you can have it all if it's important to you.