Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[skorgg]

Your single Experience is all encompassing, as for everything else you said, Its sad that you can only Insult people. I have nothing more to say apart from you have no Idea what Content I do, How Successful I am, or If I am "already being invited to more rewarding content by groups who actually like your skills.

Letting People die who dont follow the GroupLeader doesnt tell you much about anything.

Letting people die because they don't follow your orders tells me everything I need to know about you as a player. I'm making an assumption on the level of content you complete isn't mythic raiding or high M+ because of the previous comment about threat and how you handle those situations.

I'm also not coming from just my experience. Open up recruitment forums or the Discord channel and look at how many tanks are constantly looking for guilds/groups. I bet if you start a group as a DPS or healer you will get a tank real damn fast if the content is somewhat worthwhile for players.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Do you? I'm using a circular argument; players doing M+ get gear based upon their keys completed, key level indicates capability, capability indicates the level of M+ to progress on. Raiding does break this, but as M+ is near-infinitely repeatable and raids are currently 4x per week, I expect a player looking to progress their character to tend to favour M+ over raiding.

In the best case scenario gear would not be a factor and key level would indicate capability and vice-versa in a matchmaking system. I've gone into this in more detail in a previous post.

Idk man, I'm 11/12 mythic and I suck at m+

[T-34]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

I started with 0 in 8.3. Guild collapsed in 8.1 and I decided to pug my way up. I play hunter.
I started with mythic 0 and then joined/made my own 2/+3 groups.

If a dungeon run went well then quite often everybody agreed to do one of the higher keys we get. Everybody is happy with a group with "normal" people that don't stand in shit and interrupt stuff. So joining a +3 can very quickly end in a +7 or +8.

So be a good player and help the group. I met a couple of good tanks that way. They whispered me after the run and asked if I wanted to do more. So quite quickly I had my +10 done and then it is simply joining a +11 and then a +12 and so on.

It is very simply: Just be a normal competent player that pulls his share and you will get in to higher and higher keys. You might even make friends with some good tanks and then only the sky is the limit. And yes, you will be declined a lot as dps. Accept it, shrug it off and move on.

The one thing you shouldn't do is being a whiner like many in this thread. Nobody wants to play with a whining crybaby.
You will have fail keys. Again, just accept it, shrug it off and move on to another key. Getting mad is a waste of time and energy.

[skorgg]

I started with 0 in 8.3. Guild collapsed in 8.1 and I decided to pug my way up. I play hunter.
I started with mythic 0 and then joined/made my own 2/+3 groups.

If a dungeon run went well then quite often everybody agreed to do one of the higher keys we get. Everybody is happy with a group with "normal" people that don't stand in shit and interrupt stuff. So joining a +3 can very quickly end in a +7 or +8.

So be a good player and help the group. I met a couple of good tanks that way. They whispered me after the run and asked if I wanted to do more. So quite quickly I had my +10 done and then it is simply joining a +11 and then a +12 and so on.

It is very simply: Just be a normal competent player that pulls his share and you will get in to higher and higher keys. You might even make friends with some good tanks and then only the sky is the limit. And yes, you will be declined a lot as dps. Accept it, shrug it off and move on.

The one thing you shouldn't do is being a whiner like many in this thread. Nobody wants to play with a whining crybaby.
You will have fail keys. Again, just accept it, shrug it off and move on to another key. Getting mad is a waste of time and energy.

It's almost like you just played the game and progressed naturally..................................

What a concept. You started at the bottom and worked your way up....................

:thinking-face:

Positive attitude, also........

[Kaver]

Then let me re-clarify the point: Your r.io score is based on the TEAM's effort to complete a dungeon. It's entirely possible to have a horrible player in a great team complete a dungeon in time to give that horrible player a great r.io score (whether it was paid for or not). This makes r.io a bit inaccurate as a reflection of a players performance YET most group leaders take r.io as GOSPEL-level regarding the skill/knowledge a player supposedly has.

Trust me, if you find a player with a 4k rio score that has completed 100 +20 keys then 99.9% of the time it's a good player.

[LanToaster]

I'm making an assumption on the level of content you complete isn't mythic raiding or high M+ because of the previous comment about threat and how you handle those situations.

I´ve several times Stated what kind of Content I do, in this Thread you dont need to make Assumptions. I dont know what you Classify as "High M+", I probably dont do those, because I play worthwhile content.

I´ve never said anything about overall Threat issues. Its a logistics thing, there are not many skills (at least in my Spellbook) that I can use to build up Aggro from more than 1 Mob, that is out of Melee Range. And ALL of my Skills have a Cooldown. Now, I dont know how you play, but I use my Skills in fight. And if someone Pulls stuff while these things are on Cooldown. People get hurt. (To make a Number its exactly three skills I can do at Range that will generate Threat, with 5, 8 and 12 Seconds Cooldown. And only one of those hits Multiple Targets, and one of those is an Active skill to Mitigate Damage.)

If you have a Magic Keyboard that lets you cast Spells while they are on Cooldown, I´ll gladly take one.

And, if someone actually makes a Mistake, i´ll do my Job. Mistakes happen. But as an Experienced Tank I know Exactly how much I can handle. If I have a Random Healer I might be for the first Groups a bit Cautious, because I dont know what he can Handle, but after a Few groups I can pretty much determine what I can handle. So, If I pull exactly what and in the Speed I/Healer can Handle (its always dependend on both Parties), its the DPS who pulls extra groups who is slowing things down with unneccessary Deaths and Wipes.

Respect and Trust goes both ways. If DPS dont respect and trust the Tank that he´s doing his job to his best of Abilities, they dont need to think the Tank is giving them any Respect or Attention.

I'm also not coming from just my experience. Open up recruitment forums or the Discord channel and look at how many tanks are constantly looking for guilds/groups.

Start a group for a group as a DPS or healer and you will get a tank real damn fast if the content is somewhat worthwhile for players.

This is however not about Mythic Raiding Groups, or any other Premade Groups. Its about PuGs. And if you look into the Tool, you will see that 3/4 of the Groups are Missing a Tank. Otherwise you wouldnt like you said get a Red Carpet rolled out for Tanks.

[Kaver]

Idk man, I'm 11/12 mythic and I suck at m+

You'd be suprised how many mythic raiders suck at M+. Being able to kill a boss after 100 tries do not make you good in M+. There are multiple players in my mythic guild who are pretty decent raiders but who cannot do anything right in M+.

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I probably dont do those, because I play worthwhile content.

Worthwhile content depends on what you find fun right.

[LanToaster]

Trust me, if you find a player with a 4k rio score that has completed 100 +20 keys then 99.9% of the time it's a good player.

Hehe, true, I wonder however how many players actually look at the Overall Completed Dungeons?

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Worthwhile content depends on what you find fun right.

Exactly. To me, Mythic+ is not much fun. So, I only do +15 for my Weekly Chest, or if someone needs helping out.

If others have fun Pushing Keys into Oblivion, I can understand that, its just not for me.

[Kaver]

Hehe, true, I wonder however how many players actually look at the Overall Completed Dungeons?

I always do. But it's pretty rare that a player has a high rio score and a low number of completed dungeons at the same time.

[Depakote]

Easiest fix in the world: Don't fucking do them.

That's not really a fix, you know that right?

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Make your own group.

Ya cause making your own group is going to get people to join it. /s

[chiddie]

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

That’s why I play tank or healer.

If you have no time and little to no guild, you simply cannot build your score in a reasonable time if you wanna be a dps.

Gave up being a dps in M+ a lot of time ago. Luckily for me I find especially healing really fun but I suppose it’s not for everyone.

[pathebaker]

They should just make mythic+ queuable up till 15's based on internal scores or actual gearscores. the only reason we have raider.Io is because you as the player have to make your own group. if that person was already in the group though you wouldnt kick them and it would be the same as doing heroic dungeons. it also wouldnt be so choosy on who gets to go and who dosent. the Hardest dungeons I've ever done were cata heroics and even they were queueable. it made everyone play better as you did everything you could to complete them. whomever you get in your group your not gonna kick someone unless they d/c or afk. M+ dungeons are only really required up to level 15. anything after that is just for fun.

[skorgg]

That's not really a fix, you know that right?

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Ya cause making your own group is going to get people to join it. /s

Yes. Do you feel like you can't create a group for some reason? If so, how do all the other groups get filled? Is it magic?

[arkanon]

Ya cause making your own group is going to get people to join it. /s

Yes. That's how groups are made........you invite people, and they join

[Tziva]

Idk man, I'm 11/12 mythic and I suck at m+

You'd be suprised how many mythic raiders suck at M+. Being able to kill a boss after 100 tries do not make you good in M+. There are multiple players in my mythic guild who are pretty decent raiders but who cannot do anything right in M+.

If someone raids mythic successfully but sucks at m+ the problem is almost certainly just a lack of experience in that context. So much of being good at m+ is just memorising all the mob abilities, what groups are okay to pull with other groups, paths, timing, etc. Stuff you get just from doing a ton of dungeons.

You could be a highly skilled player who has done some of the hardest content in the game, and able to perfectly execute max damage under pressure, but that doesn't mean you are going to magically know that this ability is a 360 cleave that will one shot, or that the next boss ability needs to be preemptively mitigated rather than reactively or that you specifically don't want to interrupt a specific cast. You might have the awareness to notice ability telegraphing and be better at winging it than an average player in those contexts, but there are plenty of things you can't figure out just naturally. You may get outlived and beaten by a mediocre player like me who fumbles my way through most content but has done literally hundreds of keys and is pretty familiar with the dungeons.

That's part of why people upset that raider.io "only" measures experience and not personal skill are showing a limited understanding of m+. This is a context in which experience is really, really important. Showing you're a person with a lot of skill is great at showing potential for the medium, but it's not that strong of a reflection of how well you'll do in M+ unless that parse is specifically for that dungeon with that affix combo (in which case, you'd have the corresponding raider.io score anyway). Parses are great but without the experience, they just don't mean as much, especially in m+.

(I know to some degree I am preaching to the choir here but still)

[AwkwardSquirtle]

You'd be suprised how many mythic raiders suck at M+. Being able to kill a boss after 100 tries do not make you good in M+. There are multiple players in my mythic guild who are pretty decent raiders but who cannot do anything right in M+.

Not surprised at all. As I said in an earlier post, it's a very different environment with different knowledge required to perform well.

[Kaver]

If someone raids mythic successfully but sucks at m+ the problem is almost certainly just a lack of experience in that context. So much of being good at m+ is just memorising all the mob abilities, what groups are okay to pull with other groups, paths, timing, etc. Stuff you get just from doing a ton of dungeons.

You could be a highly skilled player who has done some of the hardest content in the game, and able to perfectly execute max damage under pressure, but that doesn't mean you are going to magically know that this ability is a 360 cleave that will one shot, or that the next boss ability needs to be preemptively mitigated rather than reactively or that you specifically don't want to interrupt a specific cast. You might have the awareness to notice ability telegraphing and be better at winging it than an average player in those contexts, but there are plenty of things you can't figure out just naturally. You may get outlived and beaten by a mediocre player like me who fumbles my way through most content but has done literally hundreds of keys and is pretty familiar with the dungeons.

That's part of why people upset that raider.io "only" measures experience and not personal skill are showing a limited understanding of m+. This is a context in which experience is really, really important. Showing you're a person with a lot of skill is great at showing potential for the medium, but it's not that strong of a reflection of how well you'll do in M+ unless that parse is specifically for that dungeon with that affix combo (in which case, you'd have the corresponding raider.io score anyway). Parses are great but without the experience, they just don't mean as much, especially in m+.

(I know to some degree I am preaching to the choir here but still)

I agree 100%.

Experience and knowledge are absolute key to M+. Skill doesn't matter much if you don't know how to apply it to the specific content. This is why I'm always telling people who got very little experience but still proclaim that they are masters at M+ that they are lying to some degree.

[ID811717]

All I'm saying is that parses says way more about a players skill level than their r.io score. No matter the content.

rio tells you what the player has done, parses tells you how well the player did it. You really don't see the difference?

That is true. Logs show mechanical skills, whereas raider.io score shows dungeon experience.

This reminds me of what I wrote about Shrine around 14 months ago:

Shrine is one of the hardest dungeons mechanically. In high keys, groups usually do 5-6 skips (Living Current, Windspeaker Heldis, Runecarver Sorn, Guardian Elemental, the room with two Drowned Deathbringers after 2nd boss, and the bridge afterwards). Most of the trash throughout the dungeon needs either on-spot interrupts, or hard CC to disrupt incoming damage. 2nd and 4th bosses require good interrupt rotation (3rd boss too, but it's much easier). Healer DPS is very important on last boss.

No single mechanic of skip from above is rocket-science hard, but you get opportunities to fuck something up on every single pull, and eventually something goes wrong. Especially in pugs with no voice communication. If you wipe before killing the 3rd boss, your respawn point is at the dungeon portal. If you need to run all the way back from the entrance, you might need to do every single skip again and have no means for that anymore.

As you do higher keys, you'll try to use a more optimal route (e.g. do all of the above skips) and that will force more mistakes from your group. This means you might not get comfortable with the entire optimal route until you get to keys higher than +20. At that point you start enjoying the dungeon. But until you get there - your key can be ruined by a single player failing a single skip, or by missing an interrupt here and there. That makes it not fun for less organized groups.

Back in Season 2, I felt that Shrine was really hard to pug until around +21 or +22. By the time people got to that +21/+22 key level, most of them had already failed on each of the skips many times, and hopefully finally learned to do them consistently. In this season, Shrine skips became largely unnecessary... But you still need to know many basics, such as how to remove the 3rd boss debuff in the puddle consistently, without dying on your way out.

That is what you incur from someone's score. You can tell someone has seen most of the skips and tactics, and experienced most of the obscure "random" ways to fail and die to some damage mechanics. It gives you a reason to hope they might have learned from their mistakes. What you cannot incur is - that they carried their weight DPS/HPS wise. There are many players (friends in premades) who have timed plenty of +20-22 keys while doing abysmal damage. That's where your best bet is to check the logs of people you invite. But these people are rare enough that I usually don't bother with that.

[Lubefist]

That's not really a fix, you know that right?

Sure it is. If you find M+ a problem and not satisfying content why would you do them?

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I swear it's not even the RIO, or M+ that are the issue. It's the players who are out of touch about how this game is supposed to be played. You progress, might meet ingame buddies along the way, maybe even get into a guild, get some regular or even semi-regular grps going for content etc.

Now everyone just feel like it's their basic human right to skip progress part and straight to high keys without anything to show for. Players like that will remain shit at this game because in their minds they are already high key material and that'll be the barrier for them to improve as players.

Bunch of entitled whingebags all of you.

[Depakote]

Sure it is. If you find M+ a problem and not satisfying content why would you do them?

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I swear it's not even the RIO, or M+ that are the issue. It's the players who are out of touch about how this game is supposed to be played. You progress, might meet ingame buddies along the way, maybe even get into a guild, get some regular or even semi-regular grps going for content etc.

Now everyone just feel like it's their basic human right to skip progress part and straight to high keys without anything to show for. Players like that will remain shit at this game because in their minds they are already high key material and that'll be the barrier for them to improve as players.

Bunch of entitled whingebags all of you.

Not doing them doesn't fix the problem. Seems you're the one that's entitled, not everyone else but hey keep goin on.