Why won't survival hunter get any changes?

[BakeryWoW]

I think people hate it because, looking back, Pre-WoD survival played extremely well and we currently have no interactions like it. Flayed shot is themed similarly to black arrow. The only thing Pre-WoD survival didn't have was a big damage cd and they honestly should have just given one. I don't know why they deleted the spec. I love Post-Legion Survival. I think the spec actually flows really well on PTR with all the haste we have at least.

[Brocksley]

Hunter seems to have gotten rather ignored this expansion. They focused on increasing stable size, new tames, and useless flavor abilities instead of functionality and performance. That said, SV hunters see a lot of play in high end arena, the other two specs are absent. I was surprised how many teams in the AWC had SV hunters.

[aceperson]

It's always the next expansion damn!

We need some talent fixes and by making us the only spec that ain't got a change we're being disrespected.

i agree completely but we are well beyond the point of any meaningful change. i think the most we'll get at this point in the hunters mark change we've wanted and even that probably won't be until later in the expac.

[Huntsmang]

And then you reminded me of hunters mark being on gcd lmao. Because of scaling we're doing 95% dps on targets without it. Doing nothing but bringing problems. Look at how DH and Monks bring their debuffs! why not like that.

[Poppincaps]

I never said it was a melee spec in vanilla & tbc, I said it was fun.
Reading comprehension

How cute. Either you misunderstood the person you were originally responding too in which case... right back at ya buddy, or you are very poor at formulating your sentences considering multiple people, according to you, misunderstood your point. Which is a failing of your ability to communicate rather than our lack of reading comprehension.

[Schizoide]

And then you reminded me of hunters mark being on gcd lmao. Because of scaling we're doing 95% dps on targets without it. Doing nothing but bringing problems. Look at how DH and Monks bring their debuffs! why not like that.

Because it worked that way in vanilla and they think making live more like Classic will make WoW more popular.

[Bepples]

Melee survival isn't a mistake though. It's a great spec which is a lot of fun, I don't get the hate.

What's not to get? They removed a spec a lot of people liked.

It doesn't really need many changes; unless you're the type that believes it should be range and that cater to this idea that Hunters should only be range (when lore and the very past of the class dictate otherwise) the thing about it is its actually the funnest hunter spec...its just not very practical in many situations, and for it to shine it has to over preform other melee that can do more easier and efficiently

The past of the class absolutely dictates that Survival should be ranged, actually.

https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

Clearly Survival is not the funnest Hunter spec when it's perpetually unpopular and we get threads like this one all the time.

ranged survival was stupid calm down

It was a far better spec than the current SV could ever hope to be.

The class was literally 3 range specs, that had a bunch of crossover moves. how more boring could you get. At least Melee Survival is something different.

Most people come to learn that "being different" is not the only part of being good, and melee Survival is the perfect example of that.

Besides, this is like saying that all the Rogue specs are the same because they all dual-wield and have stealth. We can and in fact did have plenty of variety when all 3 Hunter specs were ranged.

The difference being Mages are Mages. They are masters of Elemental Magic. Hunters aren't required to be guys that only use Bows and Guns. If they were called "Archers" yeah sure. Having a Spec that you can fight alongside your Pet is one of the main draws for many People to a Melee Hunter. Having it be a survivalist who also heavily relies on traps/bombs is also fun.

I think People that still cry about it now when this will be the 4th Expansion it has been now need to just quit whining and play the other 2 specs if they want a "Ranger" it's not like there is any huge difference between Old Survival and the other Specs anyway. The main defining and pretty much only major spells Survival had that were different were Black Arrow and Explosive Shot. Big wooohooo there guys.

https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

Actually, WoW Hunters are explicitly defined as the class that uses ranged weapons and pets. You might think of other possible "hunter" archetypes that could be included, just as there are people that argue for certain melee mage concepts, but WoW classes need a solid foundational identity and for Hunters that included the ranged weapon just as how for Mages it included being ranged casters. Making SV melee weakened the class identity.

No, the Hunter specs were not all the same thing because they all used a ranged weapon, just as Rogues aren't all the same just because they dual-wield. Survival had a different approach to ranged weapon combat than the other two in that it focus on resourcefulness via better utility and use of exotic munitions. For the many people who played it the spec did feel hugely different.

Problem with this is that for me SV was fun in Vanilla and TBC, and then they changed and gutted it to become just another boring ranged spec like MM always was.
So with your type of viewpoint it means I was here before you, and should get my way. So melee sv it is!

Arguing that WotLK, an expansion with purely additive changes to SV (besides Expose Weakness rework and Readiness becoming an MM talent) that put it on the map for the first time ever, "changed and gutted" SV is one of the most spectacularly awful takes I've ever seen in any Survival discussion and that really is saying something.

If you sincerely believe that SV was a melee spec before WotLK just like it is now you are woefully misinformed and lying about ever having played it.

I never said it was a melee spec in vanilla & tbc, I said it was fun.

You heavily implied it by saying that:

- WotLK gutted SV by turning it into a generic ranged spec (I genuinely can't get over the absurdity of this argument)
- You liked how it was beforehand, in Vanilla and TBC
- Since you were here first, the spec should be melee

So his comprehension was spot on, actually. As is mine. You were clearly under the impression that SV was a melee spec before WotLK.

Imagine someone takes mage, which has three specs, each focused on a particular aspect of magic. Then some crayon-eating idiot comes along thinking they're smart and turns one of those specs into a melee spec. All your spells and abilities can only be used out to 5 feet. And you lose access to some of the class-defining features....because melee.

Don't give them ideas. There are melee players already demanding this. Survival becoming melee taught them that taking away ranged specs is a perfectly valid class design direction for Blizzard to take. If you give a mouse a cookie it will ask for a glass of milk.

Melee SV directly fits into gameplay and class identity. Theme was the only different in Hunter specs before the melee change. The specs were almost 100% interchangeable in button usage and how they were played.

Even if this were true, and it isn't, it would have been much easier to just work on further distinguishing the ranged Survival gameplay than remaking it into a melee spec. It would also have been much more effective.

That said, SV hunters see a lot of play in high end arena, the other two specs are absent. I was surprised how many teams in the AWC had SV hunters.

The ranged specs are heavily gimped in PvP while all the good CC tility is funneled to SV.

This doesn't make melee SV a good idea. It does well in PvP in spite of being melee, not because of it. It was even better in PvP the last time it was ranged. Besides, rated PvP is a very small part of the game that not many people participate in compared to other areas.

[Bisque]

Because it worked that way in vanilla and they think making live more like Classic will make WoW more popular.

I did see a few post mentioning that HM could go the utility route (aside from its pvp use) and get rid the damage component. So for SV if HM gave "increased melee range by 5 yards" or something, I think that would be neat (and I would guess MM and BM would get their own type of utility from HM. Increased melee range would certainly help with the whole "survival theme"...

[Eapoe]

What's not to get? They removed a spec a lot of people liked.



The past of the class absolutely dictates that Survival should be ranged, actually.

https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

Clearly Survival is not the funnest Hunter spec when it's perpetually unpopular and we get threads like this one all the time.



It was a far better spec than the current SV could ever hope to be.



Most people come to learn that "being different" is not the only part of being good, and melee Survival is the perfect example of that.

Besides, this is like saying that all the Rogue specs are the same because they all dual-wield and have stealth. We can and in fact did have plenty of variety when all 3 Hunter specs were ranged.



https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

Actually, WoW Hunters are explicitly defined as the class that uses ranged weapons and pets. You might think of other possible "hunter" archetypes that could be included, just as there are people that argue for certain melee mage concepts, but WoW classes need a solid foundational identity and for Hunters that included the ranged weapon just as how for Mages it included being ranged casters. Making SV melee weakened the class identity.

No, the Hunter specs were not all the same thing because they all used a ranged weapon, just as Rogues aren't all the same just because they dual-wield. Survival had a different approach to ranged weapon combat than the other two in that it focus on resourcefulness via better utility and use of exotic munitions. For the many people who played it the spec did feel hugely different.



Arguing that WotLK, an expansion with purely additive changes to SV (besides Expose Weakness rework and Readiness becoming an MM talent) that put it on the map for the first time ever, "changed and gutted" SV is one of the most spectacularly awful takes I've ever seen in any Survival discussion and that really is saying something.

If you sincerely believe that SV was a melee spec before WotLK just like it is now you are woefully misinformed and lying about ever having played it.



You heavily implied it by saying that:

- WotLK gutted SV by turning it into a generic ranged spec (I genuinely can't get over the absurdity of this argument)
- You liked how it was beforehand, in Vanilla and TBC
- Since you were here first, the spec should be melee

So his comprehension was spot on, actually. As is mine. You were clearly under the impression that SV was a melee spec before WotLK.



Don't give them ideas. There are melee players already demanding this. Survival becoming melee taught them that taking away ranged specs is a perfectly valid class design direction for Blizzard to take. If you give a mouse a cookie it will ask for a glass of milk.



Even if this were true, and it isn't, it would have been much easier to just work on further distinguishing the ranged Survival gameplay than remaking it into a melee spec. It would also have been much more effective.



The ranged specs are heavily gimped in PvP while all the good CC tility is funneled to SV.

This doesn't make melee SV a good idea. It does well in PvP in spite of being melee, not because of it. It was even better in PvP the last time it was ranged. Besides, rated PvP is a very small part of the game that not many people participate in compared to other areas.

You keep saying “it’s not true” when people bring up how the specs are interchangeable. So you tell me how they are different. Keep in mind, I’m not asking for difference in theme such as dot damage vs pet damage, I’m asking for the button presses themselves.
Feel free to even use WoD when the biggest change was SV losing KS.

[Schizoide]

I did see a few post mentioning that HM could go the utility route (aside from its pvp use) and get rid the damage component. So for SV if HM gave "increased melee range by 5 yards" or something, I think that would be neat (and I would guess MM and BM would get their own type of utility from HM. Increased melee range would certainly help with the whole "survival theme"...

Yes that would be perfectly fine and make a lot of hunters happy. Thing is, that isn't how it worked in vanilla, so they won't do it.

In vanilla you needed to cast Hunter's Mark on every single target attacked. It was an inescapable mandatory GCD, every single pull. That's the "gameplay" they want in Shadowlands.

[paragraphgorilla]

What a shitty analogy.

The class was literally 3 range specs, that had a bunch of crossover moves. how more boring could you get. At least Melee Survival is something different.

Why do we have 3 ranged mage specs then? They are all the same.

[munkeyinorbit]

Here's a better analogy.

Imagine someone takes mage, which has three specs, each focused on a particular aspect of magic. Then some crayon-eating idiot comes along thinking they're smart and turns one of those specs into a melee spec. All your spells and abilities can only be used out to 5 feet. And you lose access to some of the class-defining features....because melee.

I'm sure all the Spellbreaker fans out there would spooge their pants and lose their minds about how good it is. Meanwhile completely ignoring all the mage players who already enjoyed the class and spec for how it was and what it represented in terms of gameplay.

It's even worse than that. In WoD, blizzard admitted that Hunters were one of the classes where people were able to easily switch specs mid raid to take advantage of a specs strengths. Usually there was a top dog but the class was balanced enough for people to switch specs per fight. And then they gutted the class and threw a third of it away.

Literally no one wanted the melee and every time this topic comes up you see dozens of "I like survival" posts but you never see them in game. That's because survival hunters just don't exist anymore. Why change a spec if no one actually plays it.

[Bisque]

Yes that would be perfectly fine and make a lot of hunters happy. Thing is, that isn't how it worked in vanilla, so they won't do it.

In vanilla you needed to cast Hunter's Mark on every single target attacked. It was an inescapable mandatory GCD, every single pull. That's the "gameplay" they want in Shadowlands.

That is very true. I don't have beta access, so I am only playing around on the PTR but for trash mobs (doing new Argent tournament dailies) I don't even bother with hunter's mark because it is such a pain that you have to manually apply each and every time if you want to do optimal DPS. Open world is whatever you can probably get away without HM unless it is an elite mob. But when it comes to raiding and probably mythic 5 mans when it comes to priority adds, target switching, having to apply HM and THEN start attacking, that is the headache.

[Eapoe]

Why do we have 3 ranged mage specs then? They are all the same.

They aren’t though. They all have differing interactions with spells and CDs, offering differing playstyle between the 3. Hunters were interchangeable with the exception of maybe 1 extra ability. Hunters literally used almost the exact same number of abilities in the exact same way.

[Wilfred]

Malee hunter sucks anyway..

[Eapoe]

It's even worse than that. In WoD, blizzard admitted that Hunters were one of the classes where people were able to easily switch specs mid raid to take advantage of a specs strengths. Usually there was a top dog but the class was balanced enough for people to switch specs per fight. And then they gutted the class and threw a third of it away.

Literally no one wanted the melee and every time this topic comes up you see dozens of "I like survival" posts but you never see them in game. That's because survival hunters just don't exist anymore. Why change a spec if no one actually plays it.

It’s been discussed multiple times why you don’t see them. They are very undertuned and require much stricter gameplay to get the most out of vs some other melee specs that bring more utility and do much more damage much easier.

As I’ve stated previously, there has always been interest in melee Hunters, especially when NPCs like Rexxar became more prominent. The difference is those people didn’t want it to replace a spec, they wanted a 4th spec.

[Ihazpaws]

I'd love to see survival to be more like mid range melee. Currently survival is awesome in pvp, specially in 1v(number here) but in pve they feel very clunky.
Survi seem to also lack in theme. Name says SURVIVAL yet you shoot poison and throw bombs?? Why bombs? Also having pet as a partner is kinda cool but sametime feels bit out of place.

How I imagine survival hunter to be:
- mid range skills that use bow/gun/crossbow
- no pet
- camouflage on short CD
- traps, throwable roots, multible interrupts
- many escape skills and way to selfheal
- bursty instant dmg on CD (weaving in and out)
- very mobile

Back in older days hunters had trap launcher skill that was toggleable. Maybe that could work again but this time activating it would make all traps to snap on target instead of placeable mark on the ground, offCD ofc.

Just some ideas. I didn't enjoy shadowpriest survival hunter nor ranged survival because both felt very akward to use and out of theme of being survival.
I like current melee one much more but it is just way too clunky to play and having high realiance on your pet that dies way too easily in pvp is annoying. Also I feel more like wannabe Beastmaster bomberman fusio than survival hunter.

[Perkunas]

Melee survival isn't a mistake though. It's a great spec which is a lot of fun, I don't get the hate.

But they didn't need to gut an actual spec for what could have been a talent... They could have shifted survival with a Fist-weaving style talent. Converting ranged survival abilities into melee. Or honestly it should have been fucking BM because you want to talk about dreadfully boring playstyle that you aren't even doing the majority of your damage on.

[Schizoide]

All the various talents that substantially change gameplay were removed. Gladiator is gone, etc. Demon Hunters didn't even get a third spec. The devs aren't trying to make extra work for themselves.

[Perkunas]

All the various talents that substantially change gameplay were removed. Gladiator is gone, etc. Demon Hunters didn't even get a third spec. The devs aren't trying to make extra work for themselves.

Sounds like they gave us something nobody asked for and created WAY more work for themselves for something very few people actually play.