BiS Covenant for each Class / Spec

[tyrlaan]

I think its still too early to discuss BiS covenant however the fact that players are looking for "BiS" of a game mechanic already shows its badly implemented and will cause problems. If it so happens as "BiS per class" then where will the diversity and uniqueness of classes and choice go?

I don't quite agree with this.

A chunk of the player base will simply seek out "what's BiS" for everything, even if there isn't an answer. So people looking for BiS of covenants isn't a demonstration that covenants are poorly implemented, it's a demonstration of a specific player mentality.

The only way you can avoid such players for always seeking BiS for everything is to eliminate all choice for anything that has a game mechanic impact, which would be, a terrible design choice.

[glszino]

A chunk of the player base will simply seek out "what's BiS" for everything, even if there isn't an answer. So people looking for BiS of covenants isn't a demonstration that covenants are poorly implemented, it's a demonstration of a specific player mentality.

And there is nothing wrong as a player when you know how much time you spend on your character to set yourself for success by choosing the covenant that works best for your character.

The main problem that shows that the current design is dogshit is that there is not a covenant that is best for a class for several game areas. Instead we get, BiS covenant for one spec in PvP and another BiS covenant for the same spec in PvE if we are lucky and there is no differentiation between M+ and raid.
Basically, Blizzard forces us to choose the part of the game we want to play at our full potential and accept the fact that this will negatively impact other parts of the game.

The system is shit for people who plays multiple specs of their class in multiple game mode (Raid, M+, PvP)... and I am not even talking about the soulbinds that are not spec specific. Have fun if you like playing the 4 specs of your druid in PvP, M+, raids.

[Elias01]

The difference will be muchmuch bigger than racials. Atm they are gamebreaking for sure - as in the sense if you want to be in a serious raid group you will be locked into one covenant, which will lock you out of serious m+ group. The difference is too big to be able to compete in both.

Note: this is not the case for every class and spec. But the outcry will be enormous if they dont fix those classes suffering from this.

In case people havent realized, players are super elitist even in low m+ keys. That's why Rio exists, and that's why you will spend an hour looking for group if your Rio score is low. Just wait and see Rio track covenants and people with the "wrong" covenant not being invited.

And I understand the former perfectly well. Even if the difference is like 3%, it tells about the player if he prefers cosmetics over performance. People who want to perform tend to perform better.

In the game where you are praise for people show up for raid nigh most guilds wont bench people becouse they dont have right covenant. I was in top second guild on my realm and we struggled to actualy have enough players for raid several times and nobady will ever put down player what hvae time to raid but dont have bis covenant.

[VinceVega]

And there is nothing wrong as a player when you know how much time you spend on your character to set yourself for success by choosing the covenant that works best for your character.

The main problem that shows that the current design is dogshit is that there is not a covenant that is best for a class for several game areas. Instead we get, BiS covenant for one spec in PvP and another BiS covenant for the same spec in PvE if we are lucky and there is no differentiation between M+ and raid.
Basically, Blizzard forces us to choose the part of the game we want to play at our full potential and accept the fact that this will negatively impact other parts of the game.

The system is shit for people who plays multiple specs of their class in multiple game mode (Raid, M+, PvP)... and I am not even talking about the soulbinds that are not spec specific. Have fun if you like playing the 4 specs of your druid in PvP, M+, raids.

Agreed. That is also my problem with the system.

Look at druid. The Venthyr one is basically suicide in PvP.

[Xath]

Very well said and even worse, many players will "choose" what they were ordered to choose by their guilds or RIO partners or whatnot which is just sad. All under a veil of excuses about "being optimal" and "playing to the maximum of your ability" as if 1-2-3% will make the massive difference at a #10.000 ranked group.

Oh well thats how the wheel has been spinning for years I somehow think they don't want to break the chain of bad decisions because it might shock the players so hard they wouldn't know how to react.

It's more likely to be 20 to 40% than 1 to 3% lol. There are abilities that have already been hit with over 90% nerfs.

[Aphrel]

I think its still too early to discuss BiS covenant however the fact that players are looking for "BiS" of a game mechanic already shows its badly implemented and will cause problems. If it so happens as "BiS per class" then where will the diversity and uniqueness of classes and choice go?

down the drain where it belongs.

As long as there are content difficulties that require you to up preformance ppl will be hunting bis rather than rp choice

If blizzard wants us to rp they can start by removing mythic raids, capping M+ at 15 and arenarating at 2k. because as long as these 3 features excist in their current form ppl will be optimizing the outout of their chars accordingly.

But that probobly wont be enough but as weve seen in classic with a lower ceiling of difficulty the community will create their own endgame preformance measuring in speedclears.

[Xath]

WoW doesn’t have the luxury to separate players so hard. We would end up having not enough players for any roster. Plus it’s a stupid thing to give players even more say on how other players play.

To me it’s always a problem if I can have a say on others and others have a say on me because as you can imagine by how most people reply to other posters even, granting any sort of power over others to a player never has a good result.

It is a stupid thing but that is what blizzard has chosen to do by insisting on having player power be effected by covenants.

[Nyel]

That comes off as contradictory and confusing. There's a very strict definition of what BiS is supposed to mean. BiS is the absolute best for that slot that you never need to switch. There's no ambiguity involved. Using the term BiS for any other meaning doesn't work.

Therefore, listing your favorites essentially contradicts the title of the thread. It's not surprising people would not react the way you wanted.

The whole thread is named "BiS-Covenant-for-each-Class-Spec".
Your thread.

then, if you want to talk B.I.S. (title of the thread), what was the point of posting your list "purely based on personal thoughts without looking at numbers"?? I mean, it's completely off topic in the op of your own thread.... don't be surprised if people are confused. they read the title, they see your list.... et voila.

you want to know if there's already a BiS list? fine... now, what are we suppose to do with your damn list? it's 3/4 of your op .....

You should read more than just the title of the thread and not attribute statements to my person that I've never made. By that logic I must always cater to the thread title in my posts because people could get confused by anything deviating from that. /smh

I asked if there's already an existing BiS list. And then I wanted to offer insight into my picks (which I never deemed BiS), just FYI reasons. I mean, some people got that concept and answered to this thread correctly. Again, if you read my posts, it was obvious what I tried to achieve. Maybe now we can move on from this nonsense discussion and get back on topic.

[Klueade]

BiS is something everyone should be curious about. I personally don't know if its worth to play that way as it can easily change in the middle of the expansion or something. I guess a lot of people feel like they are stuck between a rock and hard place when it comes to this.

[facefist]

In the game where you are praise for people show up for raid nigh most guilds wont bench people becouse they dont have right covenant. I was in top second guild on my realm and we struggled to actualy have enough players for raid several times and nobady will ever put down player what hvae time to raid but dont have bis covenant.

Second guild on a random realm doesnt equal serious raiding guild. Guilds that struggle to get a raid together are not serious

[klaps_05]

For Mage,

Frost - Kyrian
Arcane - Necrolord
Fire - Night fae

[Malekius]

My main lock will be necro, and I got a second warlock ready for Venthyr. The other two covenants are garbage so I don't really have to worry about having more alts.

[hikaritd]

Numerous classes do have clear BiS covenants, but I would wait at least until pre-patch is live before assuming they won't be tuned more.

There will be tuning even before mythic raid opens (seeing how specs performing during HC splits), and if they want, just nerf your bis covenant to the ground and fuk u and your invested time up bigtime. This is why iam not stressing, already know that for locks necro is the way, even if they nerf it a bit. I will pick that unless high level mythic players dont say otherwise.

[tyrlaan]

And there is nothing wrong as a player when you know how much time you spend on your character to set yourself for success by choosing the covenant that works best for your character.

The main problem that shows that the current design is dogshit is that there is not a covenant that is best for a class for several game areas. Instead we get, BiS covenant for one spec in PvP and another BiS covenant for the same spec in PvE if we are lucky and there is no differentiation between M+ and raid.
Basically, Blizzard forces us to choose the part of the game we want to play at our full potential and accept the fact that this will negatively impact other parts of the game.

The system is shit for people who plays multiple specs of their class in multiple game mode (Raid, M+, PvP)... and I am not even talking about the soulbinds that are not spec specific. Have fun if you like playing the 4 specs of your druid in PvP, M+, raids.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with the playstyle I mentioned.

Meanwhile you're now saying the system is "dogshit" because it doesn't have a BiS all the time while the person I responded to said the design was terrible because people are looking for BiS choices. So which way is it?

Or maybe you can't design a game for all people all the time.

Or maybe people need to put a lot less stock in a single active ability.

We are scared of bad game design but not of other players choosing what we can or cannot do in a game. See you in the "where did everyone go" thread in a few months.

Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that your original point is that you're just afraid of bad game design but you chose to communicate it as a given that it is bad game design?

Also, don't we have a "where did everyone go" thread every damn expansion? Doom and gloom insinuations are so TBC, er, WotLK, no wait, Cata, er no, Mop, etc. etc.

[Khallid]

You should read more than just the title of the thread and not attribute statements to my person that I've never made. By that logic I must always cater to the thread title in my posts because people could get confused by anything deviating from that. /smh

I asked if there's already an existing BiS list. And then I wanted to offer insight into my picks (which I never deemed BiS), just FYI reasons. I mean, some people got that concept and answered to this thread correctly. Again, if you read my posts, it was obvious what I tried to achieve. Maybe now we can move on from this nonsense discussion and get back on topic.

Yes, you should cater to your own title if you want consistency. That sounds perfectly reasonable, given you're the one who wrote the title. One thread has one topic. Otherwise the title is just clickbait and people get annoyed by that.

I read the title and then I chose to click on it. So I had expectations based on what the title was. Then you start talking about things unrelated to the title. Well, I clicked on this because of the title, otherwise I wouldn't be here, so what are you ranting on about? Chaos ensues. Nobody starts reading this thread without having made some expectations about it based on the title. And people that were baited by the title mostly won't care about any other topic you want to discuss on the side. That's why you should keep your discussion consistent with the title in an internet forum.

I intentionally didn't discuss the real topic because I read your favorite list, realized it's not BiS and thought there was no point talking about BiS in that case. You basically admitted you don't care about BiS while simultaneously asking for BiS just for curiosity. I can't take that seriously. So I predicted that people would flame you for doing that, then I laughed when you started complaining that they did that. I thought it would be fun to lecture you, and you didn't disappoint. You made a mistake and you don't want to admit it was a mistake. Fun time.

[goldlock]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with the playstyle I mentioned.

Meanwhile you're now saying the system is "dogshit" because it doesn't have a BiS all the time while the person I responded to said the design was terrible because people are looking for BiS choices. So which way is it?

Or maybe you can't design a game for all people all the time.

Or maybe people need to put a lot less stock in a single active ability.



Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that your original point is that you're just afraid of bad game design but you chose to communicate it as a given that it is bad game design?

Also, don't we have a "where did everyone go" thread every damn expansion? Doom and gloom insinuations are so TBC, er, WotLK, no wait, Cata, er no, Mop, etc. etc.

The issue is that in the harder difficulties and pvp wow is a competitive game. The more damage you do compared to others of your class and spec opens up more options to play the game. It can mean being in a better guild (performance wise) or getting a glad mount.

Sure you can say just play the easier difficulties but I find heroic so utterly boring at this I rarely if ever expect to clear it later then then the first week maybe second. I also unfortunately enjoy pvping in my off time and I simply can't do both competitively.

This system is disastrous and is mostly propped up by people who either don't do anything outside of automated grouping or believe that picking a talent point they are going to read off a guild regardless is some cosmic choice and by having it that way people wont judge them.

This is wow. I promise you there will be a addon within a mount that people will use to filter out other people. I mean there is even a mode that highlights players from specific realms players want to blacklist.

[blackbird1205]

OT: I will choose probably Night Fae of Kyrian for my main and twinks. Simply because I don't like the art-style and theme of Necrolords (in general death and decay stuff). Do I maybe loose a few % in the worst case, yes. But do I raid on a level where it really matters (Top 100)? No, so there won't be a problem.

I think everything besides the upper echelons of the cutting edge guilds can be compensated with more proper tactics and general individuel skill of the player. Does it make it easier for those guilds with let's say accumulated 10% more dmg/heal through covenants? yes. Mandatory? No. But I fully understand what the problem for the great mass is here.

[tyrlaan]

The issue is that in the harder difficulties and pvp wow is a competitive game. The more damage you do compared to others of your class and spec opens up more options to play the game. It can mean being in a better guild (performance wise) or getting a glad mount.

Sure you can say just play the easier difficulties but I find heroic so utterly boring at this I rarely if ever expect to clear it later then then the first week maybe second. I also unfortunately enjoy pvping in my off time and I simply can't do both competitively.

This system is disastrous and is mostly propped up by people who either don't do anything outside of automated grouping or believe that picking a talent point they are going to read off a guild regardless is some cosmic choice and by having it that way people wont judge them.

This is wow. I promise you there will be a addon within a mount that people will use to filter out other people. I mean there is even a mode that highlights players from specific realms players want to blacklist.

I think suggesting the highest content you're capable of doing without the perfectly optimized active covenant ability is heroic content is a tad hyperbole.

A tad.

Everyone likes to talk like they're elite tier, but the reality is quite different.

But it really doesn't matter. If you want to make your covenant choice by which is the mechanically superior choice, you can do that. No one is stopping anyone from deciding their covenant based on numbers instead of aesthetics.

[goldlock]

I think suggesting the highest content you're capable of doing without the perfectly optimized active covenant ability is heroic content is a tad hyperbole.

A tad.

Everyone likes to talk like they're elite tier, but the reality is quite different.

But it really doesn't matter. If you want to make your covenant choice by which is the mechanically superior choice, you can do that. No one is stopping anyone from deciding their covenant based on numbers instead of aesthetics.

True a better example would likely be CE unless the rambling turns out to be true and their solution to covenants is making mythic less difficult then previous expansions. That or we are going to see people go alliance to stack the dwarf racial to clear bleeds while having their optimal covenant and that will at least be humorous to see.

[Tyris Flare]

Kind of funny to see where the "bis" phrase has ballooned from the original use of actual "the one best piece of gear."

Anyway I'd wager that we're still going to see significant cov ability changes in the next few weeks, maybe even later today!