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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Wouldn't that give quite obvious signs everyone around him should be able to notice? Eye dilation and all?

    It was quite well-publicized at the time.
    It says from the Novichok group, which implies that there are variants of it, so maybe effects are different. Then we have questions about dose and individual resistance of each person.

    Russian internet is already going on about Western conspiracy theories and how Navalny just should have drank less vodka.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    It says from the Novichok group, which implies that there are variants of it, so maybe effects are different. Then we have questions about dose and individual resistance of each person.

    Russian internet is already going on about Western conspiracy theories and how Navalny just should have drank less vodka.
    Just some food for thought, though. This particular poison is a Russian brand, and well known for it being so.

    Why would Putin use it? Or anyone who'd like to curry favor with Putin, for that matter? I'm not talking about the loud-mouthed nutjobs you regularly see making headlines with ridiculous claims, I'm talking actual people of consequence. I mean, I doubt they have this stuff laying around in droves, do they? It's pretty fucking dangerous. So whoever used it, or ordered it to be used, must be rather well connected. What kind of idiot would do that?

    I mean, if your neighbor has a shiny gem-encrusted metal dagger, and everybody in the neighborhood knows he has it and how it looks, would he use that to stab his wife, and then let her escape with it still embedded in her back?

    You can say a lot of nasty (and true) shit about Putin. The guy's a grade-A scumbag, and the world would be better without him. But he's not an idiot, and neither are the people he puts in positions of power. Why would he sanction the use of a weapon that everybody associates with Russia? That's retarded levels of stupid.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Just some food for thought, though. This particular poison is a Russian brand, and well known for it being so.

    Why would Putin use it? Or anyone who'd like to curry favor with Putin, for that matter? I'm not talking about the loud-mouthed nutjobs you regularly see making headlines with ridiculous claims, I'm talking actual people of consequence. I mean, I doubt they have this stuff laying around in droves, do they? It's pretty fucking dangerous. So whoever used it, or ordered it to be used, must be rather well connected. What kind of idiot would do that?

    I mean, if your neighbor has a shiny gem-encrusted metal dagger, and everybody in the neighborhood knows he has it and how it looks, would he use that to stab his wife, and then let her escape with it still embedded in her back?

    You can say a lot of nasty (and true) shit about Putin. The guy's a grade-A scumbag, and the world would be better without him. But he's not an idiot, and neither are the people he puts in positions of power. Why would he sanction the use of a weapon that everybody associates with Russia? That's retarded levels of stupid.
    Hmmm... Local population does not care enough and the world already hates Russia. What's one more dead guy? What would change? West is unlikely to actually use really heavy sanctions.
    I know it is a weak reasoning, but still.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Just some food for thought, though. This particular poison is a Russian brand, and well known for it being so.

    Why would Putin use it? Or anyone who'd like to curry favor with Putin, for that matter? I'm not talking about the loud-mouthed nutjobs you regularly see making headlines with ridiculous claims, I'm talking actual people of consequence. I mean, I doubt they have this stuff laying around in droves, do they? It's pretty fucking dangerous. So whoever used it, or ordered it to be used, must be rather well connected. What kind of idiot would do that?

    I mean, if your neighbor has a shiny gem-encrusted metal dagger, and everybody in the neighborhood knows he has it and how it looks, would he use that to stab his wife, and then let her escape with it still embedded in her back?

    You can say a lot of nasty (and true) shit about Putin. The guy's a grade-A scumbag, and the world would be better without him. But he's not an idiot, and neither are the people he puts in positions of power. Why would he sanction the use of a weapon that everybody associates with Russia? That's retarded levels of stupid.
    It sends a message,like when Stalin had Trotsky assassinated in Mexico with an ice ax.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    You can say a lot of nasty (and true) shit about Putin. The guy's a grade-A scumbag, and the world would be better without him. But he's not an idiot, and neither are the people he puts in positions of power. Why would he sanction the use of a weapon that everybody associates with Russia? That's retarded levels of stupid.
    Not he is not retarded. On the contrary, it is very calculated.

    Right now is the perfect time to get away with a few things the rest of the world would not allow normally. The USA are going into elections and are not really into doing anything that could stir things in a direction Trump does not want to go right now. He does not want 'Russia' in his campaign. Everyone else is busy with COVID and trying to get the economy back on tracks. Politicians are under scrutiny for how they handled the situation, etc...

    That's why it is the perfect time for sending a few green man or for stirring trouble in a neighboring country to increase influence or grab some land. China is doing the same with Hong Kong. It would not have worked normally, but right now is the perfect timing when people have trouble in their own backyards.

    So it is the same thing for Navalny. It is sending a clear message to anyone trying to oppose Putin of what he is willing to do to you if you cross him. Normally, he knows they would end up with sanctions and a big uproar from the international community. But right now, I am quite sure they will get away with it with a slap on the wrist because no one can really deal with this right now.

    Well played, and I expect more stuff to come...

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikah View Post
    So it is the same thing for Navalny. It is sending a clear message to anyone trying to oppose Putin of what he is willing to do to you if you cross him.
    This is basically what I've assumed. From what I know, there aren't typically a bunch of protests in eastern russia, as they're usually centered around moscow, and there have been lately over the governor being arrested for supposedly murdering a bunch of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Just some food for thought, though. This particular poison is a Russian brand, and well known for it being so.

    Why would Putin use it? Or anyone who'd like to curry favor with Putin, for that matter? I'm not talking about the loud-mouthed nutjobs you regularly see making headlines with ridiculous claims, I'm talking actual people of consequence. I mean, I doubt they have this stuff laying around in droves, do they? It's pretty fucking dangerous. So whoever used it, or ordered it to be used, must be rather well connected. What kind of idiot would do that?

    I mean, if your neighbor has a shiny gem-encrusted metal dagger, and everybody in the neighborhood knows he has it and how it looks, would he use that to stab his wife, and then let her escape with it still embedded in her back?

    You can say a lot of nasty (and true) shit about Putin. The guy's a grade-A scumbag, and the world would be better without him. But he's not an idiot, and neither are the people he puts in positions of power. Why would he sanction the use of a weapon that everybody associates with Russia? That's retarded levels of stupid.
    Unless the point is to send a very clear message. Also, shoot--was going to say inb4 false flag insinuation, but I see I'm too late.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  8. #88
    So, is it another case of food poisoning?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, is it another case of food poisoning?
    Recreational overdose, probably.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  10. #90
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Just some exotic nerve agent ... no big deal.


    The name Novichok last made news in 2018, when Russian ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were attacked in the city of Salisbury in the UK.
    Russia has denied any role in Mr Navalny's predicament - or the Skripals' poisoning.
    So what do we know about this group of military-grade nerve agents?

    They were known as fourth-generation chemical weapons and were developed under a Soviet programme codenamed Foliant.
    Novichok's existence was revealed by chemist Dr Vil Mirzayanov in the 1990s, via Russian media. He later defected to the US, where he published the chemical formula in his book, State Secrets.

    Some variants of Novichok are thought to be five to eight times more toxic than the VX nerve agent.
    "This is a more dangerous and sophisticated agent than sarin or VX and is harder to identify," says Professor Gary Stephens, a pharmacology expert at the University of Reading.
    Government Affiliated Snark

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I mean, if your neighbor has a shiny gem-encrusted metal dagger, and everybody in the neighborhood knows he has it and how it looks, would he use that to stab his wife, and then let her escape with it still embedded in her back?
    Okay... so... what are you going to do? Go to the police? I’m sure Putin will make sure that who ever is responsible, will be persecuted to the full extent of the law. Putin will fight to make sure that justice is brought to all past, current and future opponents infected by this poison.
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-02 at 04:07 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Just some exotic nerve agent ... no big deal.


    The name Novichok last made news in 2018, when Russian ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were attacked in the city of Salisbury in the UK.
    Russia has denied any role in Mr Navalny's predicament - or the Skripals' poisoning.
    So what do we know about this group of military-grade nerve agents?

    They were known as fourth-generation chemical weapons and were developed under a Soviet programme codenamed Foliant.
    Novichok's existence was revealed by chemist Dr Vil Mirzayanov in the 1990s, via Russian media. He later defected to the US, where he published the chemical formula in his book, State Secrets.

    Some variants of Novichok are thought to be five to eight times more toxic than the VX nerve agent.
    "This is a more dangerous and sophisticated agent than sarin or VX and is harder to identify," says Professor Gary Stephens, a pharmacology expert at the University of Reading.
    "Then why didn't it kill him."
    "How do you know it's Russia's Novichok."
    "Why won't they let Russia see the report."
    "It's someone trying to make Russia look bad. He could have done it to himself."
    "Why now. Doesn't make any sense."
    "Symptoms don't match."
    "He had been drinking heavily."

    Did I forget any?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Okay... so... what are you going to do? Go to the police? I’m sure Putin will make sure that who ever is responsible, will be persecuted to the full extent of the law. Putin will fight to make sure that justice is brought to all past, current and future opponents infected by this poison.
    Tyrion was framed, man.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    ...i guess the only way it could make sense from Russian side is if poisoners for whatever reason wanted to create pretext for another "Evil West trying to blame innocent Russia! ...again!" campaign.

    Or perhaps if they wanted to somehow pin blame on Putin.

    Because otherwise if Putin did it then letting him out to Germany would make no sense at all.
    Or the Russian state wanted to send a message to its enemies and is completely unafraid of any potential consequences? But, yeah, you're right it's probably all a fit up.

  14. #94
    Dreadlord zmp's Avatar
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    Poor Navalny, his sacrifices probably wont be enough to stop the completion of North Stream 2 :'(

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    "Then why didn't it kill him."
    "How do you know it's Russia's Novichok."
    "Why won't they let Russia see the report."
    "It's someone trying to make Russia look bad. He could have done it to himself."
    "Why now. Doesn't make any sense."
    "Symptoms don't match."
    "He had been drinking heavily."

    Did I forget any?
    "The West are really dumb to think that using the same old shit again will work".

    Others are a perfect match for some of the "content" from Russian interwebs. Especially the one about drinking, that one is repeated often.
    P.S.
    Ok, to be honest, the report has to be public and be presented to Russia too, on official level. Unless it is fake there is no reason NOT to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Or the Russian state wanted to send a message to its enemies and is completely unafraid of any potential consequences? But, yeah, you're right it's probably all a fit up.
    Right, the message where they go against their own laws by letting Navalny get to Germany despite active law enforcement actions going on against him (which technically bars him from leaving the country)...

    The message that they are both afraid of international pressures by releasing him and then incompetent by opening themselves up for perfectly predictable poisoning allegations again? That message?

    If they wanted message of strength they needed to keep him in Russia. It's not like results would be any different. Especially if they actually poisoned him.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Right, the message where they go against their own laws by letting Navalny get to Germany despite active law enforcement actions going on against him (which technically bars him from leaving the country)...

    The message that they are both afraid of international pressures by releasing him and then incompetent by opening themselves up for perfectly predictable poisoning allegations again? That message?

    If they wanted message of strength they needed to keep him in Russia. It's not like results would be any different. Especially if they actually poisoned him.
    That makes no sense whatsoever.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That makes no sense whatsoever.
    Yes, this poisoning makes no sense whatsoever.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Yes, this poisoning makes no sense whatsoever.
    Look I'm not going to play your silly little game so I'll leave you to it but I'm sure you'll find someone to indulge you with your usual up is down, night is day, type arguments.
    Last edited by Pann; 2020-09-02 at 06:27 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah! Look I'm not going to play your silly little game so I'll leave you to it.
    Shocker the Russian plant is defending a murderous president.

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