SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Dancaris]

looks like girls are good ones and boys are bad guy. Magnificent

[Raetary]

looks like girls are good ones and boys are bad guy. Magnificent

Krexus is a good guy.

So no.

[Harbour]

Were all Ilgynoth lines successfully interpreted? Besides Turalyon being the golden one claiming the empty throne and Muehzala?

[Syegfryed]

Undermine them how?

if you can't see how a race lose by having another one leading then, obing their spotlight and their thematic, then i cannot force that to you.

The AU Mag'har are their own thing because they're quite literally from another universe with a different history,

they are still uncorrupted orcs, period.

and while they're still Orcs that's a pretty marked line of separation. As for the "racial identity" of the green Orcs, that's probably not something a lot of them wish to laud or have pointed out - it's a mark of Fel corruption

they ingame not wanting that is beside of my point, they exist, they should be represented and they should not be ashamed of themselves

You don't know a lot about history, I assume? There hasn't been a US president from "another country" because it's forbidden by US law, not because it's a terrible idea or any other such nonsense.

tell m if the us citizens would be ok to be eladed by the chinese and russian president, and tell me again its just because the law

History is replete with occasions where foreign kings were more or less invited to take over.

Again, not the sme scenario, variables or circunstaces

Ratchet is a relatively tiny trading post, not a sprawling populace. I also didn't dispute Gazlowe's ability to lead, as I think he's a fine choice for the role - I'm just saying that he and several other of the chosen interim leaders have about the same level of experience in that capacity. You're trying in vain to somehow box out the ones you dislike, but in so doing you neglect that the same rules would apply to Rokhan, Gazlowe, and several others.

Agra do not have same level of experience and capacity to lead, and Mayla only lead her own people, not others

And no, it could not apply to other people, you are trying to make a false comparison here, Rokhan was always a darkspear, and know how his tribe work, bullshit would be he leading the Zandalar in Talanji absence of vice-versa

She quite literally shepherded Thrall's continuing growth as a Shaman in Cata, so if that doesn't qualify her for the role of close advisor then I don't know what does (not to mention that fact that she's his wife to boot)

helping in the shamans ffirs = coinceiling him about leading his people, and that cannot even be considered an advisor since by that time thrall was leading nothing in the horde

She was also Geyah's second in Nagrand, overseeing the Mag'har who remained in Outland, going toward her leadership bona fides. If you can think of a dozen better candidates then list them.

Garrosh was going to take over nagrand wih geya's dead, not her, we can argue she had even less voice than Jorin deadeye, who remained there and he is more likely to step in the leadership.

you want me to list better candidates to lead the orcs?:

1- Eitrigg
2- Nazgrel
3- Gorfax
4- Gorgonna
5- Rehgar
6- Gargok
7- Karga
8- Usha
9- Rokaro
10- Agmar
11- Thura saurfang
12- anyone with the tittle of battlemaster and overlord

All of those would be better and at least have the pre-requisite of actually bing in azeroth

They're Orcs, they live where they want pretty much. Most of them probably live there because they consider it their ancestral homeland (which it is).

that is not excuse for nzgrel to stay there

Respect is itself a form of social capital and always has been. Very difficult to ascend to great heights in leadership without the respect of your people.

thts not true, orcs don't raise in rank because of their fathers, if you don't do well the name only will make it worse

Entirely subjective and objectively belied by the narrative itself. If the Orcish people accept her as an interim leader, and they appear to do so, then leader she is regardless of your or my feelings on the matter. You might call that "bad writing," but I think that's a pretty sad argument in light of the facts.

thats abd circular logic, the orcish people only accepted her because blizzard forced that way, the same way if anduin was the leader you would ay "it doesn't matter if anduin is human orchish people accepted him"

just because is in the game don't mean is not bad writing

Garrosh became Warchief because Thrall chose him to be, over Garrosh's own and his advisors' better judgment - which is neither here nor there.

he chose him to be the leader because he was a formidable warrior, an incredible strategist and a war hero, not because he was hellscream son, not because he was thrall's friend, even if those things could have brought weight, it was not by that.

And looking at cataclysm he was right over his advisors

Success or failure can only be judged after the fact, especially for those who are untested as leaders.

you didn't read the art of war did you? cause we can definelly see who is gonn succed and fail by their qualities and experiences

"Yours is the title of warchief, Thrall, son of D-Durotan. You will wear my armor and carry my hammer." - Orgrim Doomhammer

so, just because he said son of durotar all he did means jack shit

I'd argue she has more experience than Thrall did when he became Warchief.

go on, expand that

Again, neither here nor there since the nepotism argument is both A.) invalid on its face, and B.) farcical to begin with.

the nepotism argument is completely true and vallid and you even show why in mghata case

"they are in lover"

thts nepotism plain and simple

Orcs don't age quite the same way as Humans do - they retain the majority of their strength even in their senior years, such as with Eitrigg and Saurfang. But even so, age and infirmity are still factors, and Eitrigg is both venerable even by Orcish standards and recently wounded in battle. I can understand why Eitrigg wouldn't take on such a heavy responsibility in light of his circumstances, though I agree he's the best choice otherwise.

he would totally do that because he is not senile, if Saurfang did when time was needed eitrigg would so, he is more experienced, more fit and know how orgrimmar work since he is being in the city organizing and advicing the previous leaders for so long

but i can't expect coheence from the guys who put aggra there

I think it makes perfect sense based both on what we know and very obvious parallels. That *you* don't think it makes sense is, well, your own issue I suppose - and of course is beneficial for your own argument.

drwaning false pararels to distort something into make sense =/= obvious parallels

Guilt by association exists in the Warcraft universe the same way it exists in real life.

irrelevant since its not something akin to th tauren, when we ahve clearly examples of how turens are forgiving and require lierall slaughter for then to cross the line, something Jevan and other grimtotem never did.

since cataclysm there is not a single problem with him or the horde grimtotem to support your nonsense argument tht the tauren as a pacifist and forgiinig people, wold condem then

Mayla is a leader of multiple tribes, an entire nation of people - several Tauren tribes and a tribe of Drogbar. This is a distinction she has over Dezco to begin with. And I said that Dezco likely wanted to be with his remaining son after a long time away during WoD and Legion, not that he was unqualified or otherwise unable to perform in the role (although I still maintain Mayla is the better pick of the two).

leading more people don't mean you ca just lead other ones when there is better options, options who fit more and make more sense

Dezco would make more sense elading the tauren in Baine absence then her, period.

I agree he earned the position as well, but I think much of his prestige also stems from being Grom's son (something Garrosh himself acknowledges and boasts of).

the name don't do much, again, if you don't do shit it means nothing, Jorin is an example of how he have a famous name and did shit in the horde as a whole until now

False in what sense?

Thrall erned his position by his actions and there was no better option at the time, unlike now who there is at least 12 better options thn Aggra and maybe a half-dozen turn options over Mayla

if things are in jeoprdy and we need something quickly, it just make more sense to pick temporary leaders from their own people who already know how shit work, who already live in their reality isntead of foregeinrs who will have to learn everything from the start, is just logic

Don't depend on hyperbole overly. I think you're basically wrong on all counts here, and using "bad writing" as a cover for a poorly constructed argument on your part. I think this aside has also gone on a bit long in the tooth, so for my part I think it best to let other people weigh in on the matter. Feel free to offer further rebuttal if desired, but I'm unlikely to continue this particular exchange.

i already pointed out very clear of why they both are terrible picks, both in lore and in thematic and how there is far more and better options, without relying on nepotism who just make more sense and are more logical in the context they are in, Those 2 were only picked because blizzard LULz over all, exactly like how they did in icecown showing vler s a horde characters

They are bd and inconsistent

you can defend and try to make sense in the nonsense, but hey, that will be a challenge

[Aucald]

mmm that looks like a orc(green one) while the primus jailed in thorghast(if we are correct of him being the one making the legendaries) have a grayish skin, so maybe we are wrong and the primus isnt there or something happened to him that fucked his memories and his skin.

also seeing he looks like and orc in the loading screen, can Broxxigar be the primus?

It's difficult to say. Being in the Maw for an extended time does appear to change people fundamentally - leeching them of vitality slowly and surely, beyond just being tortured by the Mawsworn. I do agree that the Runecarver's general body and proportions don't really match the individual depicted on the new loading screen art - so it's possible that individual is actually Krexus and not the Primus. Krexus would be the primary NPC protagonist in Maldraxxus and its unofficial leader before the zone's questline begins, and he's the leader of the House of the Chosen, which the Maw Walker joins in the questline.

[Nagawithlegs]

Krexus is on there instead of the Primus to hide the Primus's true appearance, which points to him being the Runecarver.

[Varodoc]

Were all Ilgynoth lines successfully interpreted? Besides Turalyon being the golden one claiming the empty throne and Muehzala?

Except that that whisper isn't correct. Turalyon did not claim an empty throne. Anduin is still King. Turalyon is simply regent of Stormwind.

[Skytotem]

Except that that whisper isn't correct. Turalyon did not claim an empty throne. Anduin is still King. Turalyon is simply regent of Stormwind.

Because it's about Calia.

[Varodoc]

Because it's about Calia.

I've been saying that for months, but people don't want to listen. Anduin is even still addressed as "King of Stormwind" in Shadowlands.

[Combatbutler]

Because it's about Calia.

Could still be bulb boy, he has a death prophecy to fulfill after all.

[azkhane]

Krexus is on there instead of the Primus to hide the Primus's true appearance, which points to him being the Runecarver.

It's difficult to say. Being in the Maw for an extended time does appear to change people fundamentally - leeching them of vitality slowly and surely, beyond just being tortured by the Mawsworn. I do agree that the Runecarver's general body and proportions don't really match the individual depicted on the new loading screen art - so it's possible that individual is actually Krexus and not the Primus. Krexus would be the primary NPC protagonist in Maldraxxus and its unofficial leader before the zone's questline begins, and he's the leader of the House of the Chosen, which the Maw Walker joins in the questline.

well its confirmed now after seeing the Draka animation is Krexus indeed

[Marcosvms]

World of Warcraft 2016 - Harbringers Illidan
http s:/ /imgur.com/4J9Jupr


World of Warcraft 2020 - Maldraxxus
http s:/ /imgur.com/KIMHhf0

[Treno]

The statue is a depiction of the Primus, but all current evidence points to the Primus actually being the Runecarver - an individual trapped in Torghast who's had his memories removed and crafts the Legendary items in Shadowlands for you.

So more of detail to point out rather than a solid argument, since I don't have Beta access, but if the statue is a depiction of the Primus, then there's evidence that the Runecarver may not be the Primus. The statue of the Primus, from every image that I see, has four fingers on each hand, whereas the Runecarver clearly has five.

[Aucald]

So more of detail to point out rather than a solid argument, since I don't have Beta access, but if the statue is a depiction of the Primus, then there's evidence that the Runecarver may not be the Primus. The statue of the Primus, from every image that I see, has four fingers on each hand, whereas the Runecarver clearly has five.

Both likenesses in Maldraxxus, the giant statue that contains the Seat of the Primus) as well as the statue that stands in front of the Runeblade pedestal, are probably just abstractions - as both of them are quite different in looks. The Runecarver looks to be something of a synthesis of the two, not as skeletal as the giant statue containing the Seat but not quite as gaunt and shapeless as the statue within the Seat. Difficult to say, though.

[Houle]

Soooooo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfZNvCcGVUw
The message from the Primus.

Zovaal is sounding more and more like Sargeras.
Sargeras was a member of the godlike titans, The Pantheon, who later betrayed and fought them, bc he wants to kill everything.
Zovaal was a member of the godlike Eternal Ones, "the Pantheon of Death", who later betrayed and fought them, bc he wants to kill everything.

Yeah, tell me they dont sound aaaaawefully similar. But dont worry, just like Garrosh and Sylvanas, itll be TOTALLY different lol

Also, Zovaal had allies back then? Mueh'zala confirmed (his dungeon finder said he "laid plans to reclaim his power in ancient times)

[DemonHunter18]

Soooooo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfZNvCcGVUw
The message from the Primus.

Zovaal is sounding more and more like Sargeras.
Sargeras was a member of the godlike titans, The Pantheon, who later betrayed and fought them, bc he wants to kill everything.
Zovaal was a member of the godlike Eternal Ones, "the Pantheon of Death", who later betrayed and fought them, bc he wants to kill everything.

Yeah, tell me they dont sound aaaaawefully similar. But dont worry, just like Garrosh and Sylvanas, itll be TOTALLY different lol

Also, Zovaal had allies back then? Mueh'zala confirmed (his dungeon finder said he "laid plans to reclaim his power in ancient times)

Jailer is so lame.

They destroyed and undermined the Burning Legion and Sargeras (all lore in general) for that

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Do not let Zovaal reach the sepulcher.

Any idea where this is located? Oribos?

[Super Dickmann]

The message makes the Jailor sound even more like Sargeras to the surprise of no one whatsoever. Then again, I get it - the writers wanted to do Mists their way, now they want to show us how they'd do Sargeras and the Burning Legion vs. The Pantheon their way.

[Aucald]

I'm not really getting Sargeras vibes from Zovaal, myself; beyond some surface similarities Zovaal is feeling more like LotR's Melkor/Morgoth than Sargeras. The whole notion that Zovaal was treacherous leads one to believe he tried to take power, perhaps transgressing some boundary of being, more Lucifer-like than Sargaras' misguided nature. Sargeras wanted to "fix" the universe, his goal was perversely noble, but unfortunately involved the destruction of all "intrinsically flawed life" as he saw it. I don't really get any sense that Zovaal is guided by any form of noble goal, even one corrupted by madness, not from the Primus' brief description of his past crimes.

[Juther]

Could someone help me to understand pls?

The Shadowlands are some sort of After Life ( or dimension, or plane of existence), but how can a Soul of Shadowlands possibily INTERACT with the "World" without have a BODY or CORPORAL form?

Draka (possibly ) went to the Burning Legion Camp with HER body, so wtf?