Shadowlands paladin changes

[ThiagoTorres]

I will play mage tbh.. im done of waiting blizzard to fix something

Critical problems os paladin will still there, mobility, flufy damage, defensives nerfed, HP starved

[Delever]

Hoped on to PTR to try final reckoning. I dont know how you guys feel about it but I feel like it has the potential to be really interesting. I really like it as an active powerful AOE. I havent mathed out if its worth keeping it for the passive on single target and only activating it for the burst phase. Looks like it could be very nice though.

[Guyviroth]

Hoped on to PTR to try final reckoning. I dont know how you guys feel about it but I feel like it has the potential to be really interesting. I really like it as an active powerful AOE. I havent mathed out if its worth keeping it for the passive on single target and only activating it for the burst phase. Looks like it could be very nice though.

Yeah I logged in late last night to see what Final Reckoning is and... I'm not quite sure what kind of purpose it's supposed to fill with it having an effect that occurs while off-cooldown. Is it meant to be an active button for AoE situations, but then a passive ST talent while off-cooldown? Does the passive sim better over the active use of it? It just feels like it's in a weird place.

[Unholyground]

They already got rid of it.:-)
It's replaced by Final Reckoning.

So finally we see some changes. It's a start I guess? Still a long way to go. No adressing of mobility issues, but at least our PvP talents got updated to reflect the loss of greater blessings. Although Aura of Reckoning (former Hammer of Reckoning) is near to useless now.
Would love to see some new PvP talents, but I guess that's off the table for SL.
If only they increased proc chance for certain talents (DP, Empyrean Power) and replaced Fires of Justice, E4E and Justicar's Vengeance with something decent ret would look almost good to go (still hoping for some tuning on at least Cons to make it a worthwhile button to press). A PvP talent for Cons wouldn't be too bad either (look prot and holy).
The change to Ashen Hallow makes vampires a safe bet now if not op. Makes me hope Divine Toll and Vanq Hammer get another pass, too.

All in all some good changes (some not so good) but still some work to do in my eyes. At least blizzard prove me wrong not iterating on ret anymore.

Edit: I like to change my verdict on Ashen Hallow...strong, but not op. Still has that a**-long cooldown and looks somewhat useless in PvP.

I suggested that mobility could be fixed by changing Cavalier so that instead of two charges when Divine Steed is on cool down when you get a 15-20% movement speed buff. Most people use it off cool down for the most part so it would just fit into what people already do.

[Ramiell]

I like Final Reckoning for the simple fact that it just killed Inquisition . Ret visuals are definitely there. You look really badass with wings and seraphim up, even if holy avenger is probably the better PvP talent.

[Delever]

Yeah I logged in late last night to see what Final Reckoning is and... I'm not quite sure what kind of purpose it's supposed to fill with it having an effect that occurs while off-cooldown. Is it meant to be an active button for AoE situations, but then a passive ST talent while off-cooldown? Does the passive sim better over the active use of it? It just feels like it's in a weird place.

Thats what I ve been thinking. I guess people will have to sim it first. Ideally it would be a talent that we dont have to use all the time for single target. You use it with wings to amplify the burst and then you keep it on cd outside of wings for some steady good dmg. Otherwise I dont know how it ll work. I quite like the animation also.

[Sigxy]

Thats what I ve been thinking. I guess people will have to sim it first. Ideally it would be a talent that we dont have to use all the time for single target. You use it with wings to amplify the burst and then you keep it on cd outside of wings for some steady good dmg. Otherwise I dont know how it ll work. I quite like the animation also.

And then outside of wings, might need some testing to see how many mobs you will want before you use it for it's AoE function.

Animation looks quite alright, too. Kinda wish there was a bit more 'oomph' on the passive effect's visual, but seeing how it does proc rather often, it's probably for the best so it doesn't become annoying!

[Demsi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XB6j_vEmM

Feels bad man

It's been like this forever, i'm hardly surprised that the OP specs stays OP and the shit ones stays shit

[ExiHext]

Yeah I logged in late last night to see what Final Reckoning is and... I'm not quite sure what kind of purpose it's supposed to fill with it having an effect that occurs while off-cooldown. Is it meant to be an active button for AoE situations, but then a passive ST talent while off-cooldown? Does the passive sim better over the active use of it? It just feels like it's in a weird place.

The guys from HoW discord say that you use it on cooldown with current numbers (aka the passive is not really worth holding back the active ability) but I guess that's just a matter of tuning, so that we could easily end up in a situation where you use the active ability for AoE and the passive for ST, we will see.
On the other hand although I like the ability it wouldn't be the first time the devs remove it the week after. It looks...weird(?) for a ret ability.

[Snowfunk]

Kind of wish, they'd put Final Reckoning on the level 40 row, and moved Seraphim up.

[Swnem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XB6j_vEmM

Feels bad man

Pretty much.

Yet i get mauled in these forums if i say auras are nostalgic garbage and people want seals on top of that. xD

You know what they could do if they wanted to make auras actually good? Crusader aura should give a 20% speed boost to everyone in aura range, not just mounts.
Retribution aura should be an aura that reflects X% of damage the paladin suffers. Say 15% on the Ret and 5% on allies.

Have these modified versions be something that Ret has and not every paladin.

But, no, they have to be these little crap things that make no difference. I get mad when i remember people asked for this... and i don't even PvP anymore in this game cause it's so bad. But, yeah... PvPers get crapped on. Massively.

[roboscorcher]

Pretty much.

Yet i get mauled in these forums if i say auras are nostalgic garbage and people want seals on top of that. xD

You know what they could do if they wanted to make auras actually good? Crusader aura should give a 20% speed boost to everyone in aura range, not just mounts.
Retribution aura should be an aura that reflects X% of damage the paladin suffers. Say 15% on the Ret and 5% on allies.

Have these modified versions be something that Ret has and not every paladin.

But, no, they have to be these little crap things that make no difference. I get mad when i remember people asked for this... and i don't even PvP anymore in this game cause it's so bad. But, yeah... PvPers get crapped on. Massively.

I agree that auras are bad. I cringed a bit when they announced their return at Blizzcon.

Seals, though, are kind of cool. I like using them in classic. Their implementation sucks - you basically have to sacrifice half your damage to use a non-damage seal. But at the core is an interesting system. Low on mana? Make your autos give you mana back, then switch to a fast weapon. Lots of raid damage going out? Judge a Seal of Light.

I'd like to replace HoPo with a 3-seal builder-spender system. Your builders will each build a different seal, and each seal can stack to 3. So you have 3*3 stacks total, and spenders will spend 3 stacks. They will divide the stack-consumption as evenly as possible.

I think it would be fun to juggle these stacks instead of HoPo. It would bring much-needed depth to our rotation. Maybe you want to spam Crusader Strike for quick haste buffs, or spam consecrate to buff your holy damage. Or maybe spam Blade of Justice for Crit buffs and mana return. Or on long fights, try to keep all 3 seals filled before using a spender.

[ExiHext]

Still hoping for some PvP talent tuning at least. Luminisence and Cleansing Light were dead for all of BfA, the new Aura of Reckoning is vastly undertuned in its current form.

[Kalisandra]

But, no, they have to be these little crap things that make no difference. I get mad when i remember people asked for this... and i don't even PvP anymore in this game cause it's so bad. But, yeah... PvPers get crapped on. Massively.

Devotion Aura is about as impactful on damage intake as the DH +5% magic damage buff is on damage done, and nobody considers that a pointless buff. That reducing damage taken across the whole raid is considered 'small' and 'meaningless' (not saying you said that, but it's something people are saying) says more about the attitude of people to healing and healers than anything else.

The thing is, Greater Blessings were not popular and a lot of Paladin players asked for a real 'raid buff'. Well, we've got one now. Several, in fact. And now the complaints are that they're 'boring' and 'tiny'. Well they're a damned raid buff, so of course they're 'cast and forget' and not exciting. As it is, Devotion and Concentration Aura are a lot more interesting than Divine Fortitude or Arcane Intellect - there's a choice.

Now, Crusader Aura coming at the cost of our passive mount speed is annoying and Retribution Aura is just bad and encourages bad and un-paladinlike behaviour. Auras overall though? We asked for them, we got them.

Seals, though, are kind of cool. I like using them in classic. Their implementation sucks - you basically have to sacrifice half your damage to use a non-damage seal. But at the core is an interesting system. Low on mana? Make your autos give you mana back, then switch to a fast weapon. Lots of raid damage going out? Judge a Seal of Light.

I'd like to replace HoPo with a 3-seal builder-spender system. Your builders will each build a different seal, and each seal can stack to 3. So you have 3*3 stacks total, and spenders will spend 3 stacks. They will divide the stack-consumption as evenly as possible.

I think it would be fun to juggle these stacks instead of HoPo. It would bring much-needed depth to our rotation. Maybe you want to spam Crusader Strike for quick haste buffs, or spam consecrate to buff your holy damage. Or maybe spam Blade of Justice for Crit buffs and mana return. Or on long fights, try to keep all 3 seals filled before using a spender.

Here's what will actually happen in a raid - each Paladin will be given one debuff to manage, and that's the one they'll look after all fight. It will not be interesting or exciting in the slightest. It's how it worked in LK, especially at the times when the judgements were bugged and tended to not work right if two Paladins used the same one.

If the debuffs are personal to the Paladin, what you're wanting is a complex DoT-juggling rotation with the DoTs also having stacks and being consumed. No thanks. That'd be fiddly and annoying and incredibly slow to ramp as a caster, and as melee it'd be ten times worse.

[ThiagoTorres]

I will go mage in shadowlands if i dont see a real rework on ret pally

But that is garantee that blizzard wont do it.....

[Swnem]

Devotion Aura is about as impactful on damage intake as the DH +5% magic damage buff is on damage done, and nobody considers that a pointless buff. That reducing damage taken across the whole raid is considered 'small' and 'meaningless' (not saying you said that, but it's something people are saying) says more about the attitude of people to healing and healers than anything else.

The thing is, Greater Blessings were not popular and a lot of Paladin players asked for a real 'raid buff'. Well, we've got one now. Several, in fact. And now the complaints are that they're 'boring' and 'tiny'. Well they're a damned raid buff, so of course they're 'cast and forget' and not exciting. As it is, Devotion and Concentration Aura are a lot more interesting than Divine Fortitude or Arcane Intellect - there's a choice.

Now, Crusader Aura coming at the cost of our passive mount speed is annoying and Retribution Aura is just bad and encourages bad and un-paladinlike behaviour. Auras overall though? We asked for them, we got them.

Here's what will actually happen in a raid - each Paladin will be given one debuff to manage, and that's the one they'll look after all fight. It will not be interesting or exciting in the slightest. It's how it worked in LK, especially at the times when the judgements were bugged and tended to not work right if two Paladins used the same one.

If the debuffs are personal to the Paladin, what you're wanting is a complex DoT-juggling rotation with the DoTs also having stacks and being consumed. No thanks. That'd be fiddly and annoying and incredibly slow to ramp as a caster, and as melee it'd be ten times worse.

Yes, devotion is the only one marginally useful, but you only need one paladin for it.
I asked for no auras. I didn't ask for auras nor raid buffs, i was perfectly happy with giving my tank kings and my healer wisdom. Wisdom in particular is a pretty good buff to bring. They were only not popular for people who obviously only get moved by nostalgia.

No, auras are still garbage as they are. Cause devotion is not totally useless doesn't save the rest of the system. Especially for Ret, the auras are just nerfs.

Cause of nostalgia, people forget that Ret Paladin is not supposed to be a buff bot, in this case with buffs no one needs. It's supposed to be a dps.

[StrawberryZebra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XB6j_vEmM

Feels bad man

That was a very long video to say "I don't win as much playing Ret and losing isn't fun".

Seals, though, are kind of cool. I like using them in classic. Their implementation sucks - you basically have to sacrifice half your damage to use a non-damage seal. But at the core is an interesting system. Low on mana? Make your autos give you mana back, then switch to a fast weapon. Lots of raid damage going out? Judge a Seal of Light.

In what way are seals "cool"? They were always just auto attack modifiers. That made more sense back in the earlier stages of WoW where auto attacks were a much more significant part of your game play, but as things stand at the moment auto attacks are very much on the backburner. Having them trigger on your melee attacks just turns them into passive magic damage.

When people are already complaining that Paladins are similar to Rogues, do you really want us to have HolyPoisons too?

I do think you missed the point with your Wisdom and Light examples though. Those were debuffs to benefit your group, their individual benefits to the Paladin was small at best. Judgement of the Crusader was a selfish DPS buff only that was one-and-done for most boss fights. The seal versions were largely unused because they would either tank your DPS output, drop your threat significantly, or prevent you from casting heals.

The system itself was largely passive and uninteractive and it created all kinds of strange scaling issues for both Ret and Prot Paladins. It only really worked when they seperated the effect of your seal from the effect of your judgment. And at that point all you're really getting from the system is a utility debuff with permenant uptime. It was hardly compelling or interesting gameplay.

I'm really not seeing the "cool" factor in them.

No, auras are still garbage as they are. Cause devotion is not totally useless doesn't save the rest of the system. Especially for Ret, the auras are just nerfs.

Indeed. It's a case of being careful what you wish for because you just might get it.

[Vintersol]

In what way are seals "cool"? They were always just auto attack modifiers. That made more sense back in the earlier stages of WoW where auto attacks were a much more significant part of your game play, but as things stand at the moment auto attacks are very much on the backburner. Having them trigger on your melee attacks just turns them into passive magic damage.

They could easily bring them back as Judgment modifiers.

- Singletarget (Judgment deals x% more Damage)
- AoE (Judging an Enemy spreads x% Holydamage to all Enemies in a 10y Radius)
- LAotL
- [...]

No Censure spead Shitshow or something else, just having Options depending on the Situation.

[StrawberryZebra]

They could easily bring them back as Judgment modifiers.

- Singletarget (Judgment deals x% more Damage)
- AoE (Judging an Enemy spreads x% Holydamage to all Enemies in a 10y Radius)
- LAotL
- [...]

No Censure spead Shitshow or something else, just having Options depending on the Situation.

The problem with this kind of idea is that what you have is effectively a toggled ability. You toggle AoE on/off as required. It's not bad from a functionality point of view, but it's not cool or interesting. It would clash badly with the Kyrian Covenant ability though.

Do Paladins need more AoE? With Consecration and Wake of Ashes being baseline for Ret and with Empryean Power being a talent and the new Final Reckoning I'd say they're looking to be in a decent spot. Prot has AoE on practically everything baseline, so they're not exactly a slouch when it comes to AoE. Holy could use a little more punch when it comes to AoE damage perhaps, but I don't think it was ever designed to be their strong point. All of the Covenant abilities excluding Night Fae have and AoE component to their signature abilities.

No, I'd argue that there are plenty of AoE abilities on offer without needing to add some in passively as well.

Do Paladins need more single target damage? The opinion of this forum would be yes, but we're also very biased on that one. Some posters here wouldn't even be satisfied if Paladins had instant teleports to any target of their choosing and hit so hard the victim exploded in a mushroom cloud. If they are lacking in single target damage however, it'll be due to number tuning more than the number of abilities. Needing to use an extra GCD for a buff to Judgment wouldn't really fix that without seeming like a clunky fix.

They're also not "seals" in the way they were being asked for. They'd just have "Seal" in the name, which is fine, but when you're asking for the mechanic they're not fitting the requirements.

[roboscorcher]

In what way are seals "cool"? They were always just auto attack modifiers. That made more sense back in the earlier stages of WoW where auto attacks were a much more significant part of your game play, but as things stand at the moment auto attacks are very much on the backburner. Having them trigger on your melee attacks just turns them into passive magic damage.

When people are already complaining that Paladins are similar to Rogues, do you really want us to have HolyPoisons too?

I do think you missed the point with your Wisdom and Light examples though. Those were debuffs to benefit your group, their individual benefits to the Paladin was small at best. Judgement of the Crusader was a selfish DPS buff only that was one-and-done for most boss fights. The seal versions were largely unused because they would either tank your DPS output, drop your threat significantly, or prevent you from casting heals.

The system itself was largely passive and uninteractive and it created all kinds of strange scaling issues for both Ret and Prot Paladins. It only really worked when they seperated the effect of your seal from the effect of your judgment. And at that point all you're really getting from the system is a utility debuff with permenant uptime. It was hardly compelling or interesting gameplay.

I'm really not seeing the "cool" factor in them.

I never claimed that the classic seals were better than HoPo. You are correct that the seals were janky and most were only useful if you had the right scenario AND weapon speed.

But you have to admit, they are leagues more interesting than "3 builders, 1 spender". This core mechanic is too simple for Ret. It's fine for Prot/Holy who have other things to worry about, but IMO it's just too basic for a dps spec.

The seal system I've proposed would combine the HoPo system with the benefits of seals. Basically, keep the bulders/spenders, but the 5HoPo bar would be replaced by a 3*3 grid (overlaid on top of a Libram graphic). Each column is a seal that gives passives benefits for the first 2 rows. Hitting the 3rd row - filling the seal - would proc your spec's mastery once. For Ret, mastery would be a burst of bonus dmg. Spenders would eat 3 stacks, but would try to spend them equally between seals if possible. Builders would no longer have CDs, and would usually be improved with each seal applied. Seal passives could be crit, mana savings, haste, holy dmg, movement speed, etc.

This seal 3*3 grid would allow players to spam a builder 3x and spend for quick fights, while encouraging a full grid for bossfights. Using a spender with a full grid would bring all 3 seals to 2/3 power. Therefore, hitting the 3rd row in each seal means hitting the mastery 3 times in between a spender.

I know this may be hard to follow. I should probably just make a video explaining it. Bottom line is, we need a resources system with a hight skill floor and ceiling. It needs to be more interesting than "build 3x, spend" with a whole bunch of disjointed talents thrown on top. With a more interesting core loop comes more interesting talents.

- - - Updated - - -

Devotion Aura is about as impactful on damage intake as the DH +5% magic damage buff is on damage done, and nobody considers that a pointless buff. That reducing damage taken across the whole raid is considered 'small' and 'meaningless' (not saying you said that, but it's something people are saying) says more about the attitude of people to healing and healers than anything else.

The thing is, Greater Blessings were not popular and a lot of Paladin players asked for a real 'raid buff'. Well, we've got one now. Several, in fact. And now the complaints are that they're 'boring' and 'tiny'. Well they're a damned raid buff, so of course they're 'cast and forget' and not exciting. As it is, Devotion and Concentration Aura are a lot more interesting than Divine Fortitude or Arcane Intellect - there's a choice.

Now, Crusader Aura coming at the cost of our passive mount speed is annoying and Retribution Aura is just bad and encourages bad and un-paladinlike behaviour. Auras overall though? We asked for them, we got them.

Here's what will actually happen in a raid - each Paladin will be given one debuff to manage, and that's the one they'll look after all fight. It will not be interesting or exciting in the slightest. It's how it worked in LK, especially at the times when the judgements were bugged and tended to not work right if two Paladins used the same one.

If the debuffs are personal to the Paladin, what you're wanting is a complex DoT-juggling rotation with the DoTs also having stacks and being consumed. No thanks. That'd be fiddly and annoying and incredibly slow to ramp as a caster, and as melee it'd be ten times worse.

The system I want wouldn't have any debuffs. It would essentially be a 3x3 grid of 'HoPo' where each column is a different seal that gives different passives. The 3rd row would give a mastery proc (damage burst for ret) instead of the seal passive. Each builder will only fill a certain column, and filling the column will generally make that builder better to use (but never quite as strong as the spender). Spenders will consume 3 'HoPo', but will consume them evenly across the grid if they can.

This is all about adding depth and decision making to the core of the spec, and class. Prot and Holy would aslo work well with this system.