This is the Horde in 2020 (spoilers)

[Jshadowhunter]

Corrected:


It doesn't have to be the Horde... it doesn't even resembles the Horde. Why even give something totally different the same name. That's major flaw with this faction lore.

You can't call Burning Legion the Burning Legion if you replace Demons with humans and Night Elves and replace Sargeras for Titan Azeroth, and the factions start spreading peace and love. Just an extreme hyperbole. But you get the idea.

The Horde needs Orc Chieftains, Warlords, Grunts, Peons to be called the Horde. If you replace the whole Orc structure with Elves, Gnomes or Humans, or in this case Trolls and zombie Humans/Elves (Undeads). It's no longer Horde, it's something different.

Or the worst part: removing what keeps the Horde together in the 1st place - position a Warchief.

[XalAtoh]

You personally feeling "out of place" does not translate to an issue with the Horde in the narrative. Both the Horde and the Alliance were essentially sidelined in Legion due to both factions losing their leaders at the Broken Shore, which is why the Legionfall concordance picked up the slack. In Legion you weren't really representing your faction in any real capacity, which is why the forces arrayed at Argus don't have to be precisely proportional to Alliance/Horde demographics (which is in itself often hamfisted and needlessly shoehorned into the plot).

As for the rest, I think any player of WoW should seriously underscore the division between player and game story. I can fully appreciate characters like Garrosh and Sylvanas for what they *do*, while finding them reprehensible and odious due to what are or represent. The real problem, as I see it, is when a person starts to actually identify with such characters - Garrosh and Sylvanas are terrible people that no one should or even want to emulate, in my view. The same is true of Alliance characters like Aedelas Blackmoore or Othmar Garithos. I'm fine with a Garrosh-like character returning to the story to cause drama and promote conflict, as dramatic conflict is what drives the narrative forward - but I'm not hung up on Garrosh specifically, as I feel he's had his day in the sun and his story is conclusively over. The Horde should realistically move on from his influence and change organically based on its current circumstances.

You roleplay in the game as a fictional character, you are quickly pushed into the Alliance vs Horde events. The problem is, when the Horde drastically changes, it's no longer what I signed up for... my character, my whole roleplay stopped making sense.

If you sign up for a primitive tribal faction, and after a while I end up in a modern, highly advanced faction, almost identical to the enemies... I don't know about you, but I would feel out of place, yes. That's in my opinion the issue with the writings.

The Horde that you sign up for, does not exist in modern WoW story. Glad you also see that we need characters that can promote drama, conflict. Sadly I don't think Sylvanas is able to do it. Nor do I think anyone in the "Red Alliance" can, maybe outside of Gallywix. But honestly, I rather see new character appear outside the failed faction system (e.g. Yrel / Hellscream vs Geya'rah)

[StationaryHawk]

Or the worst part: removing what keeps the Horde together in the 1st place - position a Warchief.

You mean the position that resulted in two civil wars? If the Warchief was meant to hold the Horde together, it didn't work. Even the Old Horde wasn't particularly good at remaining loyal to its Warchief given that two clans defected mid-Second War.

[Venziir]

Yet another, angstfilled and edgy thread by Overlordd. Surprising.

[Varodoc]

You mean the position that resulted in two civil wars? If the Warchief was meant to hold the Horde together, it didn't work. Even the Old Horde wasn't particularly good at remaining loyal to its Warchief given that two clans defected mid-Second War.

That's the kind of logic you'll see around here:

- If the Warchief is using the Horde as a mere tool and is causing it to break due to their evil acts, they are a great and admirable leader (Garrosh and Sylvanas);
- If the Warchief is upholding honor and keeping the Horde together as a family, they are useless and traitors (Thrall and Vol'jin).

[Ardenaso]

The Horde needs Orc Chieftains, Warlords, Grunts, Peons to be called the Horde

if you want WC2 Horde then yes, Alteraci Humans for the Horde

- - - Updated - - -

thought I just want the WC3 Horde back

[Aucald]

You roleplay in the game as a fictional character, you are quickly pushed into the Alliance vs Horde events. The problem is, when the Horde drastically changes, it's no longer what I signed up for... my character, my whole roleplay stopped making sense.

If you sign up for a primitive tribal faction, and after a while I end up in a modern, highly advanced faction, almost identical to the enemies... I don't know about you, but I would feel out of place, yes. That's in my opinion the issue with the writings.

The Horde that you sign up for, does not exist in modern WoW story. Glad you also see that we need characters that can promote drama, conflict. Sadly I don't think Sylvanas is able to do it. Nor do I think anyone in the "Red Alliance" can, maybe outside of Gallywix. But honestly, I rather see new character appear outside the failed faction system (e.g. Yrel / Hellscream vs Geya'rah)

I don't want to belittle or otherwise demean your plight, but it's difficult to really arrive at a conclusion that doesn't boil down to "well, that sounds like a personal problem." I don't have an issue with the Horde as it is, and I can trace back through the events that happened and understand how the Horde went from A, to B, to C, to D as it were. I don't think the Horde and the Alliance are similar in terms of either aesthetics or culture, either; so the problems you're having just, well, aren't there for me as a player in the WoW game world.

Some of this probably stems from subjective likes and dislikes. I, personally speaking, think WoW is at its best when the conflict is external to the factions - when it's the Horde and Alliance fighting against a third-party threat like the Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods, or what have you. I've found that the faction conflict hearkening back to WC1 and WC2 has largely run out of narrative steam and importance. Azeroth exists as a lonely world in the midst of a universe (and now a multidimensional multiverse) of horrors - from the corrupting Void, the fanatical Light, marauding demons, and eldritch abominations of every kind. It doesn't make sense for the Alliance and Horde to constantly war with each other in the bigger picture - it weakens them both, and leaves both vulnerable to those vast threats lurking at their very threshold.

The faction conflict is also essentially repetitive. It's the *same* dramatic hook and source of conflict, reused over and over and over again. It makes both the Horde and Alliance look quintessentially dumb, like they can't learn from their mistakes or just move on. I mean you could make a great faction conflict story if you were of a mind to, but in order to do that you'd need to rip up the status quo and let true conflict reign - and the game systems in WoW can't really permit that. There can never be a true winner or loser in the faction war, because once all is said and done it *has* to reset back to its original shape because the nature of the format can't cope with that kind of change. That's the reason why Cata, MoP, and now BfA always end in a stalemate and essential reset - the faction conflict is a story whose resolution is essentially unstageable just down to the nature of MMORPG games.

[aceperson]

i really can't help but feel you are being racist over fictional races and characters...

[XalAtoh]

Or the worst part: removing what keeps the Horde together in the 1st place - position a Warchief.

I rather have them remove the whole Warchief now we have this Red Alliance. This way we see that it's no longer Horde, it's something else.

The Red Alliance is so diverse, that inside this Red Alliance there should be constant war with all the members. For example there is NO WAY Gallywix and Baine are more loyal to each other than Baine and Night Elves. That's just impossible. That's the situation of this fake Horde.

This whole thing what people call the Horde is a fiasco. A sad joke, nothing more.

Garrosh was the last Warchief that made sense. After his defeat, the Horde practically died. Nothing made sense after it.

[TrueHorde]

a male orc with no balls
Anduin and Jaina's pet bull

[Overlordd]

You mean the position that resulted in two civil wars? If the Warchief was meant to hold the Horde together, it didn't work. Even the Old Horde wasn't particularly good at remaining loyal to its Warchief given that two clans defected mid-Second War.

Was it the warchief that broke the truce in Legion?
I wouldn't call it a civil war. We barely fought eachother. It was more of a coup by the Alliance, because Sylvanas didn't care about the Horde.
If you had someone like Garrosh in charge, a strong headed leader with lots of willpower (without the racist issues), I don't think the Alliance would've succeeded.

[Itori]

I dont see the problem, just because the horde isnt a group of "ME ANGRY! ME HUNGRY! ME BIG NASTY!" Or warmongers anymore then thats bad? Isnt that theme getting a bit old by now?

[Amaterasu65]

As others have already mentioned, the Horde has deviated from its original style. Most players play Blood Elves, they ask customizations for Sanlayn, Blizzard added another cute race for the Horde in BfA, along with the Nightborne whose concept is Blood Elves but dark.

Why are you suddenly surprised when the actual Horde fanbase is represented by fitting characters? All you've ever begged for was prettier orcs through pose, prettier trolls through straight back, prettier undead without bones and straight backs while also asking for Nathanos model for them too.

Yes, lorewise, you still have orc, troll and tauren representatives but it seems people prefer seeing prettier models. So take your Lor'themar, take your Menethil Queen and the badass Blood Elf rogue, cause you played a role in this.

[Overlordd]

As others have already mentioned, the Horde has deviated from its original style. Most players play Blood Elves, they ask customizations for Sanlayn, Blizzard added another cute race for the Horde in BfA, along with the Nightborne whose concept is Blood Elves but dark.

Why are you suddenly surprised when the actual Horde fanbase is represented by fitting characters? All you've ever begged for was prettier orcs through pose, prettier trolls through straight back, prettier undead without bones and straight backs while also asking for Nathanos model for them too.

Yes, lorewise, you still have orc, troll and tauren representatives but it seems people prefer seeing prettier models. So take your Lor'themar, take your Menethil Queen and the badass Blood Elf rogue, cause you played a role in this.

The Warcraft 3 that build the foundation of the succes on this game, and you decide to spit on all the veterans of that game that made the game so popular?

[Jshadowhunter]

Was it the warchief that broke the truce in Legion?
I wouldn't call it a civil war. We barely fought eachother. It was more of a coup by the Alliance, because Sylvanas didn't care about the Horde.
If you had someone like Garrosh in charge, a strong headed leader with lots of willpower (without the racist issues), I don't think the Alliance would've succeeded.

But then trogg-minded blizz writers decided to bash him with "not-see" hammer and ruined everything.

[Overlordd]

I dont see the problem, just because the horde isnt a group of "ME ANGRY! ME HUNGRY! ME BIG NASTY!" Or warmongers anymore then thats bad? Isnt that theme getting a bit old by now?

Theme never gets old, if you saw the Warcraft 3 ending credits back as a kid, I miss that era of the devs being metallica boomers. The old guard has left.
Also most people that play Blood Elves don't care about the lore, they just play the prettiest race that's out there, and Blood Elves happen to have the best racials in M+ aswell...

I'm still waiting for Ogres to come out so I can finally play an Ogre magi

[Amaterasu65]

The Warcraft 3 that build the foundation of the succes on this game, and you decide to spit on all the veterans of that game that made the game so popular?

Me? I don't personally spit on anything, I'm an Alliance player myself. I'm just stating facts. Most players play BE and similar pretty races in the Horde and now they're more accurately represented by their quest givers. That's an undeniable reality, the foundation doesn't matter anymore since it's been years since this trend started and is still growing. Even more so with the HE additions through blue eyes.

[XalAtoh]

I don't want to belittle or otherwise demean your plight, but it's difficult to really arrive at a conclusion that doesn't boil down to "well, that sounds like a personal problem." I don't have an issue with the Horde as it is, and I can trace back through the events that happened and understand how the Horde went from A, to B, to C, to D as it were. I don't think the Horde and the Alliance are similar in terms of either aesthetics or culture, either; so the problems you're having just, well, aren't there for me as a player in the WoW game world.

Some of this probably stems from subjective likes and dislikes. I, personally speaking, think WoW is at its best when the conflict is external to the factions - when it's the Horde and Alliance fighting against a third-party threat like the Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods, or what have you. I've found that the faction conflict hearkening back to WC1 and WC2 has largely run out of narrative steam and importance. Azeroth exists as a lonely world in the midst of a universe (and now a multidimensional multiverse) of horrors - from the corrupting Void, the fanatical Light, marauding demons, and eldritch abominations of every kind. It doesn't make sense for the Alliance and Horde to constantly war with each other in the bigger picture - it weakens them both, and leaves both vulnerable to those vast threats lurking at their very threshold.

The faction conflict is also essentially repetitive. It's the *same* dramatic hook and source of conflict, reused over and over and over again. It makes both the Horde and Alliance look quintessentially dumb, like they can't learn from their mistakes or just move on. I mean you could make a great faction conflict story if you were of a mind to, but in order to do that you'd need to rip up the status quo and let true conflict reign - and the game systems in WoW can't really permit that. There can never be a true winner or loser in the faction war, because once all is said and done it *has* to reset back to its original shape because the nature of the format can't cope with that kind of change. That's the reason why Cata, MoP, and now BfA always end in a stalemate and essential reset - the faction conflict is a story whose resolution is essentially unstageable just down to the nature of MMORPG games.

It's almost always a personal problem when consumer has problems. That doesn't mean there is no problem. It just doesn't affect everybody.

If someone finds WoW boring, then that's their personal problem. It's up to Blizzard to do something about it (...or nothing), it depends if the effort is worth it.

Sure, there are still differences between Alliance and the so called Red Alliance, but the difference are getting smaller The difference are so nihilistic that waging wars makes no sense, like you describe it later.... The faction wars are getting dumb.

It's not only because they are not learning from the mistakes, but I admit, it's big one.

But the Red Alliance itself is so differs within the faction... there is no common goal, there is no common identity. Lots of traitors inside the faction, lots of former-Alliance. It makes no sense for this faction to wage war with the Alliance... for what reason would they? There is none. Garrosh had reasons... Sylvanas? Vol'jin? They really don't. It's forced.

The other problem with Red vs Blue faction wars is that they are done fighting within 1 expansion. War takes years, but in WoW, these massive wars, even galactic wars are finished within 1 expansion. Think how Iron Horde, a whole planet got defeated within 1 expansion, or even more hilarious the mighty intergalactic Burning Legion, wasn't even able to put a dent on Azeroth. All major wars vanished within 1 expansion.

WoW lore is always going to be bad because it's driven by a "gameplay first product", the game is carrying the bad lore. You can definitely say that you don't have any problems with the lore, but that's also your personal experience. My personal experience is different, I do see problems with the WoW lore. Many problem... and I think those problems will never be fixed, because story is not that important. It's just a marketing tool... at this point.

[Overlordd]

Me? I don't personally spit on anything, I'm an Alliance player myself. I'm just stating facts. Most players play BE and similar pretty races in the Horde and now they're more accurately represented by their quest givers. That's an undeniable reality, the foundation doesn't matter anymore since it's been years since this trend started and is still growing. Even more so with the HE additions through blue eyes.

Yeah well most people who play blood elves also aren't that invested into the lore. They just pick the prettiest elf and the best racials, given that blood elves are superior in M+
The Horde outmatches the Alliance in classic without Blood Elves, bold statement there.
We've had a few years of Blood Elves having a mandatory PvP/PvE racial, to a highly mandatory M+ racial. You can't base off your fanbase around how many races people play. My girlfriend chooses Night Elves or Blood Elves, yet she doesn't know anything about the lore and her most interesting characters she found were mostly Orcs (Garrosh, Kargath, Grommash) and Humans (Varian, Anduin Lothar, Turalyon, Daelin), yet she still plays Blood Elves and Night Elves because they're pretty.

[Aucald]

It's almost always a personal problem when consumer has problems. That doesn't mean there is no problem. It just doesn't affect everybody.

If someone finds WoW boring, then that's their personal problem. It's up to Blizzard to do something about it (...or nothing), it depends if the effort is worth it.

It actually isn't. I kind of find the "Dark Souls" games to be trite and boring myself, but I don't expect the franchise to change to cater to my whims. It just means that those games aren't my cup o' tea and I'd be happier finding something more up my alley preference-wise. I mean if the game does change in such a way then great, means I have another game to sink my teeth into. And if it changes in a way I don't like, then I go elsewhere.

Sure, there are still differences between Alliance and the so called Red Alliance, but the difference are getting smaller The difference are so nihilistic that waging wars makes no sense, like you describe it later.... The faction wars are getting dumb.

It's not only because they are not learning from the mistakes, but I admit, it's big one.

But the Red Alliance itself is so differs within the faction... there is no common goal, there is no common identity. Lots of traitors inside the faction, lots of former-Alliance. It makes no sense for this faction to wage war with the Alliance... for what reason would they? There is none. Garrosh had reasons... Sylvanas? Vol'jin? They really don't. It's forced.

The other problem with Red vs Blue faction wars is that they are done fighting within 1 expansion. War takes years, but in WoW, these massive wars, even galactic wars are finished within 1 expansion. Think how Iron Horde, a whole planet got defeated within 1 expansion, or even more hilarious the mighty intergalactic Burning Legion, wasn't even able to put a dent on Azeroth. All major wars vanished within 1 expansion.

WoW lore is always going to be bad because it's driven by a "gameplay first product", the game is carrying the bad lore. You can definitely say that you don't have any problems with the lore, but that's also your personal experience. My personal experience is different, I do see problems with the WoW lore. Many problem... and I think those problems will never be fixed, because story is not that important. It's just a marketing tool... at this point.

The faction war is best served, in my opinion, by being a background plot point whose only real purpose is providing a rationale for PvP-oriented gameplay. Sure, you can have Alliance and Horde come to blows over isolated disputes without necessarily blowing those things up into full-scale global conflict as depicted in MoP or BfA. I've got no issue with narrative hostility between the two factions - and I've got no issue with them working together to tackle greater problems, either. I actually kind of enjoy the teeth-clenched teamwork between the Horde and Alliance in many stories, with both sides trying gamely to one-up each other in a "frenemy" type relationship for a time.

I also disagree with the notion that WoW has "bad lore" in the general sense. I mean sure, the story has its share of flaws, no one can dispute that - but no fictional story is perfect or free of error, so that's kind of a nonsensical baseline to establish. The story of WoW is definitely a hostage to its gameplay mechanics, but that's okay as well - it's a video game, after all, not a serial novel or written anthology. This has also *always* been the case from day 1 of the Warcraft franchise, all the way back in '94 when Warcraft I hit the market. WoW doesn't have literary pretensions, it's not aiming to be literary high art by any means, it's the fantastical equivalent of an action movie you enjoy with a bag of popcorn and perhaps some Junior Mints. For WoW, it always wise to keep the MST3K mantra in the back of your mind at all times: "If you're wondering how they eat and breathe and other science facts, then repeat to yourself 'it's just the show, I should really just relax.'"