Pardon Julian Assange, Pardon Edward Snowden?

[Doctor Amadeus]

Pardon Julian Assange, Pardon Edward Snowden?

I would pardon neither. Although Snowden I would listen to his argument.

[cubby]

Pardon Julian Assange, Pardon Edward Snowden?

I would pardon neither. Although Snowden I would listen to his argument.

Why is this coming up? Hypothetical or are we hearing something about the next Trump horror?

[postman1782]

Pardon Julian Assange, Pardon Edward Snowden?

I would pardon neither. Although Snowden I would listen to his argument.

Assange hell no. He and Trump colluded with Russia to get Trump elected.

Snowden, I would have to listen to his reasoning to release everything, before I would probably support him.

[Ooid]

Why isn’t there an option to pardon both? They did nothing wrong.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Why is this coming up? Hypothetical or are we hearing something about the next Trump horror?

Well a couple weeks ago he said he would seriously look into it. But then again he said that above Joe Exotic.

[postman1782]

Why isn’t there an option to pardon both? They did nothing wrong.

Except be a puppet of Trump and Russia for Assange, and receiving stolen property, which is still a felony.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Why isn’t there an option to pardon both? They did nothing wrong.

I consider both but It would be too easy. I think it terms of priorities on this.

[Ooid]

I consider both but It would be too easy. I think it terms of priorities on this.

Oh then Snowden if I had to pick one.

[Shadowferal]

Assange hell no. He and Trump colluded with Russia to get Trump elected.

And you think Snowden's asylum in Russia is without any strings attached?

[postman1782]

And you think Snowden's asylum in Russia is without any strings attached?

If he wanted to be pardoned, if he wanted to be exonerated by the evidence, he should have stayed and faced the music. But no, he ran to our enemy in Russia. Personally neither should be pardoned, but Snowden probably thought he was doing the world a service by what he did leak. Good intentions, but bad execution.

[Felya]

And you think Snowden's asylum in Russia is without any strings attached?

That’s the string...

[cors8]

I'd have a lot more sympathy for Snowden if he didn't flee and hide in Russia.

Assange can rot in jail.

[Thekri]

Neither. Emphatically neither.

I do have a certain respect for Snowden. I do think his actions were based on good intentions, and I think you can even make a reasonable argument that he was morally correct in doing so. However, there are a consequences to those actions. Good intentions does not change the vital principles that are why those rules existed in the first place, we can't have that sort of national security breach based on the judgement of every coder and employee in the system. It if it is worth breaking the rules to reveal, it is worth living with the consequences. The example of what happens when that behavior gets normalized is Manning, who was manipulated by Wikileaks for a massive data breach. Manning went along with it, and leaked a staggering amount of information directly to our adversaries. The damage was less then Snowden, but the context was far less forgivable. Manning should never have been pardoned, she should be in jail for the rest of her life.

It isn't that I hate Snowden, it is purely that I think it sets a terrible precedent. I acknowledge I do dislike Manning, as I don't believe she had any of the same moral reasons, she was just gullible and easily manipulated.

edit: In case I wasn't clear, Fuck Assange. He wasn't worth discussing.

[Benggaul]

Why is this coming up? Hypothetical or are we hearing something about the next Trump horror?

I assume because of this:

U.S. court: Mass surveillance program exposed by Snowden was illegal

For myself, I would say neither. Fuck Assange forever for helping Russia screw the US elections. Snowden I'd be lenient with given that he was trying to do some good, but the way he did it also fucked over some innocent people.

[PACOX]

Snowden burned his bridge. There's no way a NSA whistleblower is living Russia without Russia getting anything out of it.


Assange isn't a good guy.

[tylenol]

Snowden screwed himself by going to Russia, he also should've said "PRISM is a thing" then stopped but he didn't he stole documents and released them, if anyone paid attention a guy named Thomas Drake told everyone about PRISM (Project Trailblazer was essentially the same thing) years before Snowden and he still lives in the states and had all charges against him dropped...

And Assange can rot, who cares about him

[Felya]

Snowden burned his bridge. There's no way a NSA whistleblower is living Russia without Russia getting anything out of it.

Assange isn't a good guy.

Similar to the above, the bold is what Russian getting out of this...

[Mihalik]

Snowden has said repeatedly that he doesn't want a pardon.

What he wants is simply a written guarantee from the DOJ that he won't be tried under the Espionage Act.

The Espionage Act is one of those pieces of legislation that really shouldn't exist in the form it exists.

It essentially bars the defendant from making any arguments in their own defense or to bring any evidence. It essentially turns the whole judicial process into a Kangaroo court.

If you read up on it it's mere existence boggles the mind, and the US government has been using it phenomenally liberally to intimidate and punish whistle blowers.

All Snowden is asking for is a day in court where he is actually permitted to make an argument and bring evidence.

I believe that is a more than fair request. Keep in mind that's not him being allowed to nilly willy disclose whatever to the public, just to disclose information and evidence relevant to his defense to the jury under the supervision of a judge.

Now Julian Assange is a more complicated character. Some of the work he has done and is being persecuted for was legitimate journalism. But he has also done a lot to further the political objectives of various malicious foreign powers.

Neither should be pardoned per say...but both ought to stand trial. A fair trial.

Furthermore, just keep in mind that legally speaking a pardon is not an absolution. When pardoned there's an implicit admission of guilt.

[CostinR]

Snowden has said repeatedly that he doesn't want a pardon.

Criminals don't get to set the terms of their own trial, and yes that's what Snowden is a criminal.

One with good intentions I grant that and even a fairly good reason to do what he did, since the Obama administration and the national security agencies were flat out lying under oath in Congress, but still Snowden did break the law, did violate his own oaths.

That wouldn't have been so bad in of itself, in fact it would be quite admirable if he had done what he did and faced the music, but he didn't want to. He knew very well that law they'd use to prosecute him under and he did it anyway, and then he wants to pretend that special rules should apply to him?

Fuck that.


So no, no pardon for Snowden until he gets a trial, not under some special rules, but under those that exist that he knew very well he violated.

I acknowledge I do dislike Manning, as I don't believe she had any of the same moral reasons, she was just gullible and easily manipulated.

edit: In case I wasn't clear, Fuck Assange. He wasn't worth discussing.

Manning and Assange are contemptible pieces of trash. Whereas someone like Snowden can be admired for what he did, though scorned for running away to avoid the consequences, someone like Manning or Assange don't deserve it.

The attention seeking both Manning and Assange engaged in with their actions was extremely harmful. A lot of people died, especially in the Middle East where their actions in leaking and then posting that information was like throwing a lit match on a powder keg, and then both Manning and Assange want to walk away like big heroes?

Absolutely not I'd say to that, not after the millions of refugees the tens of millions of lives destroyed and the hundreds of thousands dead.

[Benggaul]

So no, no pardon for Snowden until he gets a trial, not under some special rules, but under those that exist that he knew very well he violated.

That's...exactly what Mihalik is saying. A normal trial without special rules.