[Discussion] Mage class - What would we like to see happen to the class in Shadowland

[Specialka]

@TheWorkingTitle
i dont like rop either, but many people do - you have to consider them too.

I also do think that a 40% dmg buff is just too strong to balance around.

Just reduce the numbers by half to improve the situation

RoP inscreases spell power dmg by 20% (as it does in pvp already, i also would make it instant to be honest since rop of power does nothing by itself and getting interrupted on your build up just feels bad in pvp)

Incanters flow cycles between 2% and 10% damage buff.

Increase overall dmg in relation the talent row nerf.

-> The difference will be smaller and the damage profile wont be so overly reliant on cooldown windows. It sucks that a frostbolt / fireball hits for nothing.

The issue is that if you reduce the damage buff difference, what is the point of RoP if overall it only gives a minimal dps gain in ideal condition when it is far more complex to play around than IF ?

[dileria]

Boss fights often require burst windows. (priority targets, downtime in transitions)
Dungeon damage profiles also do prefer burst windows. (downtime during packs)

considering that...

What do you think is better?
2 Specs, both do the same damage over 2 minutes.
Spec A does 50% of its dmg in the first 30 secs, and the other 50% in the following 90 secs. (current fire mage)
Spec B does has no big burst and does about the same dps for 2 mins. (i know frost also has some burst, but its dmg peak is rather flat compared to fire - so lets assume Spec b is a frost mage)

I think you can see that Spec A is better

Frontloading dmg via burst cooldowns is always prefered. ( Image a fight length of 5 minutes. 2 times icy veins versus 3 combustions)

Those ideal conditions you are talking of are not that rare in my opinion.
The complexity in rop lies in finding those windows.
The "complexity" in IF is reaching 100% uptime.
And to be honest i find it way easier to find those burst windows than having zero empty gcd's during a 5min boss fight.

So why should rop outshine IF by that much? its on the same row isnt it?
Even if Incanters Flow and RoP simmed for the same dps, i believe that RoP would still be the default choice for better players.
The point of a talent is not to be flatout better than the other two choices. The point of a talent (in a perfectly balanced world) is to change your damage profile while being viable compared to the two alternatives.

@Specialka
i think that i get your point, "why should i put more work in, if the result is the same"
But having control over when to do meaningful dps, without loosing overall damage is a reward in itself (rop has 2 charges afterall)

[enigma77]

[*]Sleet - Make the targets wet

I like this a lot.

There could be a talent that makes this 100% more effective against female targets.

[Specialka]

Boss fights often require burst windows. (priority targets, downtime in transitions)
Dungeon damage profiles also do prefer burst windows. (downtime during packs)

considering that...

What do you think is better?
2 Specs, both do the same damage over 2 minutes.
Spec A does 50% of its dmg in the first 30 secs, and the other 50% in the following 90 secs. (current fire mage)
Spec B does has no big burst and does about the same dps for 2 mins. (i know frost also has some burst, but its dmg peak is rather flat compared to fire - so lets assume Spec b is a frost mage)

I think you can see that Spec A is better

Frontloading dmg via burst cooldowns is always prefered. ( Image a fight length of 5 minutes. 2 times icy veins versus 3 combustions)

Those ideal conditions you are talking of are not that rare in my opinion.
The complexity in rop lies in finding those windows.
The "complexity" in IF is reaching 100% uptime.
And to be honest i find it way easier to find those burst windows than having zero empty gcd's during a 5min boss fight.

So why should rop outshine IF by that much? its on the same row isnt it?
Even if Incanters Flow and RoP simmed for the same dps, i believe that RoP would still be the default choice for better players.
The point of a talent is not to be flatout better than the other two choices. The point of a talent (in a perfectly balanced world) is to change your damage profile while being viable compared to the two alternatives.

@Specialka
i think that i get your point, "why should i put more work in, if the result is the same"
But having control over when to do meaningful dps, without loosing overall damage is a reward in itself (rop has 2 charges afterall)

Not anymore. Now Rop is auto cast when you activate AP, Combustion, Icy Veins and you have one more charge to play with. And it lasts 15 sec.
That is on the beta and ptr, and won't probably change untill SL release.

[CylomDashti]

I like this a lot.

There could be a talent that makes this 100% more effective against female targets.

Yes! finally we can put an end to all those males playing as females.

[Bugg]

Which of the legendary items are nice (good in terms of dps, or at least add something fun / help the spec rotation or gameplay)?
https://www.wowhead.com/guides/mage-...in-shadowlands

[dileria]

@Specialka
Not anymore...what?^^

RoP as a autocast is a quality of life change. Not combining rop with AP/Comb/IV is always a mistake.
So no "real" decision making is taken away from the player.
And the second charge is still there to use as you see fit.

[blankfaced]

Fudging hell man. At this point, I would like to see them spend a SINGLE patch going over mages. They CANNOT be that "balanced" that the only change needed right now is adding teleport and portals? Not fudging possible. Not even with the greatest team of game developers on the planet are 4 of the 12 classes needing constant changes, but that one is spot on. The head in the sand routine got old after 10 years damnit!

[Cosmic Janitor]

[...] They CANNOT be that "balanced" that the only change needed right now is adding teleport and portals? Not fudging possible. [...]

You say that, but I was starting to become legit worried that we might not get them. Especially with the asinine move of making the new emissaries into quests I feared I couldn't just use my HS for that and go to oribos via teleport .

[blankfaced]

You say that, but I was starting to become legit worried that we might not get them. Especially with the asinine move of making the new emissaries into quests I feared I couldn't just use my HS for that and go to oribos via teleport .

I'm having serious flash backs to the entire expansion where Arcane Brilliance never got a talent to increase it from the base 6% spell power to 10%.

[Swizzle]

Oof, those Legendary effect nerfs are going to hit hard. I only saw Frost being somewhat competitive on beta sims and parses before this, so I don't expect Mages to be doing too well in the first tier of Shadowlands if those changes go through.

[Lodravel]

Glad they nerfed the Frost Nova legendary for frost, though. :'D
Was bonkers in PvP when the mage could just lay into you with 10s worth of ice lances. Although it does kind of defeat the purpose of it being a spec-agnostic legendary if it's now useless for frost.

Anyway, its not like they could've seen this coming from the drawing board.

[Foszil]

I seen that a lot of classes AOE's only hit up to x amount of targets now, is it the same for blizzard for frost mage?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I seen that a lot of classes AOE's only hit up to x amount of targets now, is it the same for blizzard for frost mage?

Blizzard and Arcane Explosion are both uncapped. Orb's just dumb strong, so I can see why they wanted to limit it a bit.

- - - Updated - - -

Was bonkers in PvP when the mage could just lay into you with 10s worth of ice lances.

That's still going to happen, we just don't gain 10% damage on them.

[Foszil]

Thank you for letting me know