[Spoilers] Shadowlands: Afterlives Cinematic Discussion

[username993720]

That force in question being Necromancy, yes. The Maldraxxans use a lot of Necromancy - but it's more or less natural for them, as the Shadowlands are the realms of Death where Death magic abounds. Necromancy in the world of the living, not so much.

What are you talking about?

You, guys, said that the Scourge and Maldraxxus are two different entities with no connection to each other whatsoever.

I corrected you, saying it was wrong. The scourge undead are the undead from Maldraxxus being summoned into Azeroth by necromancy.

But they are dead. Their physique has no importance there. What is important is their qualities of mind and soul. Honor, merit, excellence and all that is not restricted to a warrior. And Maldraxxus does not have only warriors. House of Plagues, House of Eyes, House of Constructs... Mekkatorque could very well become a baron of the House of Constructs. Rommath could become a powerful lich. Besides, they have all the eternity to become a warrior, or a rogue or whatever. Draka was a warrior in life, yet she became a rogue in the House of Eyes in the afterlife. And she enjoys it.

And no, Rommath does not match Revendreth, unless you think he has serious sins to atone for. And even if he does, once he is redeemed, his place is in Maldraxxus.

Then, everyone can get to Maldraxxus. What's the uniqueness in that? Yes, i'm aware that there are more than just Warriors there, but it's supposed to be a place for kickass characters, not cute or charming ones.

[Aucald]

What are you talking about?

You, guys, said that the Scourge and Maldraxxus are two different entities with no connection to each other whatsoever.

I corrected you, saying it was wrong. The scourge undead are the undead from Maldraxxus being summoned into Azeroth by necromancy.

I am telling you that your idea of the relationship between the Scourge and Maldraxxus is wrong. Maldraxxus is the origin of Necromancy, the magic concerning the manipulation of spiritual essences and the energy of Death as a primal force. Necromancy is very common in Maldraxxus, as Maldraxxus exists in the realm of Death specifically. The Scourge do not come from Maldraxxus, they're not summoned into the physical universe or anything like that. The Scourge are the corpses of the living who've had their spirits placed back into their bodies with Shadow/Death magic, and are then shackled to the will of the Lich King via the Helm of Domination. Both the Scourge and the Necrolords use Necromancy, yes; but to entirely different ends with entirely different means and for an entirely different purpose. The Necrolords are meant to protect and serve the Shadowlands as a military force, whereas the Scourge was created by the Legion as a means to destroy its populace and leave the world ripe for conquest.

[Frontenac]

What are you talking about?

You, guys, said that the Scourge and Maldraxxus are two different entities with no connection to each other whatsoever.

I corrected you, saying it was wrong. The scourge undead are the undead from Maldraxxus being summoned into Azeroth by necromancy.



Then, everyone can get to Maldraxxus. What's the uniqueness in that? Yes, i'm aware that there are more than just Warriors there, but it's supposed to be a place for kickass characters, not cute or charming ones.

Not everyone wants to excel, to be the best at its craft, to fight (whatever the way or the field), to overcome, to conquer, or to win. A businessman wants that. He wants to make the most profit, to supplant the competition, to conquer new markets and to keep the ones he already has. So yes, a Goblin Trade Prince would fit right in. His mentality would fit right in. And it doesn't appear that appearance has any importance in the Shadowlands. Those in Bastion become Kyrians. Those in Ardenweald become spirit animals that tend to the forest. Those who remain in Revendreath after their redemption become vampiric Venthyrs. Therefore, there's nothing preventing a cute but ambitious female gnome with pink pigtails to become a dreadful "undead" warrior.

[Piamonte]

A majority opinion in this vein is no less personal than a minority one - it's still personal preference. I think Draka is kind of odd in the role myself, albeit for different reasons than the above. It's personal and subjective for me as well, so YMMV.

- - - Updated - - -



As I said, Hunter vs. Warrior is a class-distinction and not a story one. Any warrior (as in someone who fights as opposed to a specific game class) can specialize in raw strength, speed, tactics, or any combination of the three. So no, Grom is not the same kind of warrior as Fenris, but both have considerable prowess and are considers exemplars in Orcish society. The same applies to Draka, as was recognized by her people and newfound status after the events of A Warrior Made.



She's fine just simply being in Maldraxxus, the issue with her in the story has nothing to do with her characterization and more the fact that her characterization isn't explored or pertinent to the story of the Maldraxxus. This stands out when Alexandros Mograine and Vashj don't have the same issues, with both of them have a key role in the Maldraxxus plotline and the following Covenant story-arc. Draka's a fine character, the problem is that she isn't doing anything of note in the Maldraxxus story, which this cinematic also shows (or fails to show).

All Orc clans emphasized strength of arm, a warrior ethos, and emphasized the concepts of honor and will. The Frostwolves were no different in that capacity, and were both feared and respected on Draenor among the other clans. The Frostwolves were *not* pacifistic, either; Draenor had little room for pacifism given the savagery of the world. The Frostwolves' decisive victory against the Bladespire Ogres of Bladespire Hold is proof enough of that (as per Chronicle Vol. 2). The fact that in besieging Bladespire Hold the Frostwolves found common cause with both the Whiteclaw clan and the Mok'nathal who were enslaved by the Bladespire goes to show that no only did they hold to the Orcish warrior ethos, they also embraced the nobler ideals of unity and cooperation (ideals that many other Orcish clans had problems with, to their ultimate detriment).

if an opinion is shared by a lot of people, then it stops being personal and it is probably less open to being a subjective point of view.

[Aucald]

if an opinion is shared by a lot of people, then it stops being personal and it is probably less open to being a subjective point of view.

That's not how opinions work, and majorities can be and often are wrong. Just because an error is popular doesn't make it right, one way or the other; and people historically have often come around to different ways of thinking about things after the passage of time. This is where things like cult movies come from - things that weren't popular or acclaimed in their own time, but then enjoy a resurgence later on.

[username993720]

I am telling you that your idea of the relationship between the Scourge and Maldraxxus is wrong. Maldraxxus is the origin of Necromancy, the magic concerning the manipulation of spiritual essences and the energy of Death as a primal force. Necromancy is very common in Maldraxxus, as Maldraxxus exists in the realm of Death specifically. The Scourge do not come from Maldraxxus, they're not summoned into the physical universe or anything like that. The Scourge are the corpses of the living who've had their spirits placed back into their bodies with Shadow/Death magic, and are then shackled to the will of the Lich King via the Helm of Domination. Both the Scourge and the Necrolords use Necromancy, yes; but to entirely different ends with entirely different means and for an entirely different purpose. The Necrolords are meant to protect and serve the Shadowlands as a military force, whereas the Scourge was created by the Legion as a means to destroy its populace and leave the world ripe for conquest.

My idea? it's part of the lore: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Maldraxxus

You're talking about the origin of necromancy, for some reason - i don't.
It was specifically said in Blizzcon that the scourge army is supplemented from Maldraxxus.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8

Minute 7:30 - "These are the forces that were called upon by the Lich King, by his servant Kel'thuzad and others".

Not everyone wants to excel, to be the best at its craft, to fight (whatever the way or the field), to overcome, to conquer, or to win. A businessman wants that. He wants to make the most profit, to supplant the competition, to conquer new markets and to keep the ones he already has. So yes, a Goblin Trade Prince would fit right in. His mentality would fit right in. And it doesn't appear that appearance has any importance in the Shadowlands. Those in Bastion become Kyrians. Those in Ardenweald become spirit animals that tend to the forest. Those who remain in Revendreath after their redemption become vampiric Venthyrs. Therefore, there's nothing preventing a cute but ambitious female gnome with pink pigtails to become a dreadful "undead" warrior.

A Goblin Trade Prince would go to Revendreth because of his greed and ambition to be humbled by the Venthyr. Moreover, Goblins are mostly spineless cowards, meaning they would negotiate with the enemy to be spared of death. That is not the Maldraxxus way of dying an honorable death in combat.

I think your'e confusing combat excellency with smooth-talking.

[Aucald]

My idea? it's part of the lore: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Maldraxxus

You're talking about the origin of necromancy, for some reason - i don't.
It was specifically said in Blizzcon that the scourge army is supplemented from Maldraxxus.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8

Minute 7:30 - "These are the forces that were called upon by the Lich King, by his servant Kel'thuzad and others".

Yes, the "forces" in question being Necromantic energies - the energies or forces of Death itself (you know, the first part of the quote). The actual undead came from the victims of said Necromancy on Azeroth, and the victims of the Plague of Undeath, itself a likely product of Maldraxxus as well (e.g. the House of Plagues). Kel'Thuzad and the Lich King didn't summon Maldraxxan beings to Azeroth, they used the powers of Necromancy and plaguecraft garned from knowledge of Maldraxxus to create what would become the Scourge.

[Frontenac]

My idea? it's part of the lore: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Maldraxxus

You're talking about the origin of necromancy, for some reason - i don't.
It was specifically said in Blizzcon that the scourge army is supplemented from Maldraxxus.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8

Minute 7:30 - "These are the forces that were called upon by the Lich King, by his servant Kel'thuzad and others".



A Goblin Trade Prince would go to Revendreth because of his greed and ambition to be humbled by the Venthyr. Moreover, Goblins are mostly spineless cowards, meaning they would negotiate with the enemy to be spared of death. That is not the Maldraxxus way of dying an honorable death in combat.

I think your'e confusing combat excellency with smooth-talking.

But that's the thing. It's not only about combat. And Maldraxxus rewards ambition. From WoW official site:

In the skull-and-bone laboratories of Maldraxxus, strength is rewarded, and weakness cast aside. Necromancers experiment on the souls of the ambitious and contentious, reforming only the greatest into undead soldiers who protect the Shadowlands. Those who are determined rise to positions of power. The less-promising become fuel for Maldraxxus’ malign weapons.

So, let's suppose the Trade Prince goes first to Revendreth to purge him of his cowardice, where do you think he would go after?

[Trollokdamus]

Yes, the "forces" in question being Necromantic energies - the energies or forces of Death itself (you know, the first part of the quote).

Ion is probably wrong there based on the other lore, but he doesn't mention necromancy in his quote at all. He talks about the military side of the realm and souls that defend it. In such context, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that by "these forces" he means actual Maldraxxan troops.

[Aucald]

Ion is probably wrong there based on the other lore, but he doesn't mention necromancy in his quote at all. He talks about the military side of the realm and souls that defend it. In such context, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that by "these forces" he means actual Maldraxxan troops.

Maldraxxan troops would have no desire to fight on behalf of the Legion against the living, and thus no desire to serve the Lich King (or the demons behind him). We also know where the Scourge's troops came from - the entirety of Lordaeron is still mostly emptied of people that created the bulk of the Scourge armies, so obviously there was no call to summon Maldraxxans or anything like that. The way "forces" is meant here is more implied through what Maldraxxus was previously described as: "the home of Necromancy," and the origin of Death magic. Maldraxxus gave the Lich King and Kel'Thuzad the means to create the Scourge, the means that were used to wipe out the Nerubians, and then the people of Northrend, and then the people of Lordaeron. Those are the forces being called upon in this metaphor.

[username993720]

Yes, the "forces" in question being Necromantic energies - the energies or forces of Death itself (you know, the first part of the quote). The actual undead came from the victims of said Necromancy on Azeroth, and the victims of the Plague of Undeath, itself a likely product of Maldraxxus as well (e.g. the House of Plagues). Kel'Thuzad and the Lich King didn't summon Maldraxxan beings to Azeroth, they used the powers of Necromancy and plaguecraft garned from knowledge of Maldraxxus to create what would become the Scourge.

Notice the wording.
"These are the forces" (Plural, meaning undead armies), not "this is the force" (Singular, meaning necromancy). "That were called upon" (meaning, summoned). You summon undead beings, but use necromancy.

But that's the thing. It's not only about combat. And Maldraxxus rewards ambition. From WoW official site:



So, let's suppose the Trade Prince goes first to Revendreth to purge him of his cowardice, where do you think he would go after?

They don't purge cowardice, they purge arrogance. And what exactly is keeping them from remaining in Revendreth as a Venthyr?

Your argument is fair enough. What you mean is natural born leaders go to Maldraxxus. But, that would mean every faction/organization leader would be deemed worthy of Maldraxxus, for example. And that just strips Maldraxxus of any uniqueness. Mekkatorque is the leader of the gnomes, but you never would have seen him leading the Alliance in any way. There must be more to it than just natural born leaders. They need to have some affinity to war.

Maldraxxan troops would have no desire to fight on behalf of the Legion against the living, and thus no desire to serve the Lich King (or the demons behind him). We also know where the Scourge's troops came from - the entirety of Lordaeron is still mostly emptied of people that created the bulk of the Scourge armies, so obviously there was no call to summon Maldraxxans or anything like that. The way "forces" is meant here is more implied through what Maldraxxus was previously described as: "the home of Necromancy," and the origin of Death magic. Maldraxxus gave the Lich King and Kel'Thuzad the means to create the Scourge, the means that were used to wipe out the Nerubians, and then the people of Northrend, and then the people of Lordaeron. Those are the forces being called upon in this metaphor.

Undead under the Lich King's command do not choose if they want to serve or not - they are under his control.

You are right, they were risen fallen humans of Lordaeron. That is most likely a retcon or something. But, it's pretty obvious that they mean Maldraxxian undead forces and not necromancy forces (which is one force, out of 7 cosmic forces).

[Aucald]

Notice the wording. "These are the forces" (Plural, meaning undead armies), not "this is the force" (Singular, meaning necromancy). "That were called upon" (meaning, summoned). You summon undead beings, but use necromancy.

Forces, yes - as in the many forms of magic coming from Maldraxxus. Not just Necromancy itself but also the types and forms of undead beings, the plagues that Necromancers use, the Plague of Undeath itself. The idea of Abominations (or Constructs) comes from Maldruxxus, as does the Necromantic science that splices dead souls to artificial housings. Again, we know where the actual undead of the Scourge came from due to the events of WC3 - it wasn't Maldraxxus. It was those who died and were converted by the Plague of Undeath during the Third War, and those who willingly signed themselves over to the Cult of the Damned.

[username993720]

Forces, yes - as in the many forms of magic coming from Maldraxxus. Not just Necromancy itself but also the types and forms of undead beings, the plagues that Necromancers use, the Plague of Undeath itself. The idea of Abominations (or Constructs) comes from Maldruxxus, as does the Necromantic science that splices dead souls to artificial housings. Again, we know where the actual undead of the Scourge came from due to the events of WC3 - it wasn't Maldraxxus. It was those who died and were converted by the Plague of Undeath during the Third War, and those who willingly signed themselves over to the Cult of the Damned.

You basically mean that the Scourge and it's magic was merely inspired by Maldraxxus, like how Odyn's Valkyrs are inspired by the Kyrian, but not taken directly from it?

Because that seems far-fetched to me. I always got the feeling, from Ion's explanation at Blizzcon, that they meant the forces of the Scourge were summoned from Maldraxxus.

[Aucald]

You basically mean that the Scourge and it's magic was merely inspired by Maldraxxus, like how Odyn's Valkyrs are inspired by the Kyrian?

Because that seems far-fetched to me. I always got the feeling, from Ion' explanation at Blizzcon, that they meant the forces from Maldraxxus were summoned to the Scourge.

Not just the Scourge's magic but also the nature of the Scourge, the types of units and their roles, and the emphasis on plagues and enchanted contagions all of which hearken back to Maldraxxus and the Houses of the Necrolords. The undead Nerbubians hearken to the Aranakk of the House of Eyes, scouts and specialists who ensnare and surprise the unwary. The Scourge Abominations are directly in the vein of the House of Constructs' shock troops and elite soldiers, only created from the dead of Azeroth as opposed to the flesh and essence laboratories of Maldraxxus. The various plagues and contagions inspired by the House of Plagues, from the major Plague of Undeath to the blighted ground that the Scourge uses as its herald and a weapon in and of itself.

[username993720]

Not just the Scourge's magic but also the nature of the Scourge, the types of units and their roles, and the emphasis on plagues and enchanted contagions all of which hearken back to Maldraxxus and the Houses of the Necrolords. The undead Nerbubians hearken to the Aranakk of the House of Eyes, scouts and specialists who ensnare and surprise the unwary. The Scourge Abominations are directly in the vein of the House of Constructs' shock troops and elite soldiers, only created from the dead of Azeroth as opposed to the flesh and essence laboratories of Maldraxxus. The various plagues and contagions inspired by the House of Plagues, from the major Plague of Undeath to the blighted ground that the Scourge uses as its herald and a weapon in and of itself.

Seems very unlikely. Where, when and how did they get the inspiration from? Through the Lich King's helm? Through the Burning Legion? They didn't have any means to peer into Maldraxxus, like Odyn sacrificing his eye.

Watch Nobbel say it as well:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TgFJSBpJIjY

Minute 0:55 - " and it's these Military forces that the lich king and his followers, like kel'thuzad, they called upon" (he doesn't mention necromantic forces).

[Aucald]

Seems very unlikely. Where, when and how did they get the inspiration from? Through the Lich King's helm? Through the Burning Legion? They didn't have any means to peer into Maldraxxus, like Odyn sacrificing his eye.

Watch Nobbel say it as well:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TgFJSBpJIjY

Minute 0:55 - " and it's these Military forces that the lich king and his followers, like kel'thuzad, they called upon" (he doesn't mention necromantic forces).

Bolvar tells us at Oribos that the wearer of the Helm can see into the Shadowlands, even into the Maw itself, as the Helm is intrinsically connected to both the Shadowlands and the Maw. This means that Bolvar, Arthas, and Ner'zhul before both of them was able to peer into the Shadowlands and gain wisdom from its realms, especially Maldraxxus and the Maw. This explains why the Necromantic forces of the Scourge echo those of Maldraxxus, and even why the later architecture of Northrend such as Icecrown Citadel looks like what we see in the Maw (as the Jailer likely began to slowly but surely gain more and more of a foothold via the Helm's power and influence).

I'm using the definition of "forces" here that concerns powers or abilities, not military units or the like because of the fact that we already know where the Scourge got its forces - unless the Scourge is massively retconned and the dead of Lordaeron restored to life within the story, which I don't think has happened or will happen. The Forsaken might not mind being retconned back to life, but I don't think the story could tolerate the breaking strain of that level of retroactive storytelling.

[username993720]

Bolvar tells us at Oribos that the wearer of the Helm can see into the Shadowlands, even into the Maw itself, as the Helm is intrinsically connected to both the Shadowlands and the Maw. This means that Bolvar, Arthas, and Ner'zhul before both of them was able to peer into the Shadowlands and gain wisdom from its realms, especially Maldraxxus and the Maw. This explains why the Necromantic forces of the Scourge echo those of Maldraxxus, and even why the later architecture of Northrend such as Icecrown Citadel looks like what we see in the Maw (as the Jailer likely began to slowly but surely gain more and more of a foothold via the Helm's power and influence).

I'm using the definition of "forces" here that concerns powers or abilities, not military units or the like because of the fact that we already know where the Scourge got its forces - unless the Scourge is massively retconned and the dead of Lordaeron restored to life within the story, which I don't think has happened or will happen. The Forsaken might not mind being retconned back to life, but I don't think the story could tolerate the breaking strain of that level of retroactive storytelling.

If the connection between the two was simply inspirational, then they would have said something like: "These are the forces that the Lich King, Kel'thuzad and the scourge took inspiration from", or "These are the forces that inspired the Scourge's structure". But, they didn't. You are so afraid of the lore implication, that you're unwilling to give up on that.

[formerShandalay]

I agree with Aucald here, that the Scourge very specifically used the dead of Lordaeron (or whichever other dead they found) to fill their ranks and 'the forces' are probably more generally speaking the forces of death that Maldraxxus uses. But they might even have taken some souls of Lordaeronians that went to Maldraxxus back with them, as well as older dead/souls they resurrected. And maybe they even took other souls and just connected them to Lordaeronian bodies.

[Aucald]

If the connection between the two was simply inspirational, then they would have said something like: "These are the forces that the Lich King, Kel'thuzad and the scourge took inspiration from", or "These are the forces that inspired the Scourge's structure". But, they didn't. You are so afraid of the lore implication, that you're unwilling to give up on that.

One takeaway fits Occam's Razor much more easily and readily than the other, and the other takeaway (your current takeaway) which has zero basis or reflection in either what we've already seen of Shadowlands and know of the lore as it currently exists. They also didn't say "The Scourge summoned the forces of Maldraxxus into Azeroth" either, as you'll note. You could argue that Ion was a bit unclear and non-specific in his speech, but even just a little critical thought would make the idea of such a massive retcon unnecessary and its implication likely unintended. That's pretty much it.

[Frontenac]

They don't purge cowardice, they purge arrogance. And what exactly is keeping them from remaining in Revendreth as a Venthyr?

Your argument is fair enough. What you mean is natural born leaders go to Maldraxxus. But, that would mean every faction/organization leader would be deemed worthy of Maldraxxus, for example. And that just strips Maldraxxus of any uniqueness. Mekkatorque is the leader of the gnomes, but you never would have seen him leading the Alliance in any way. There must be more to it than just natural born leaders. They need to have some affinity to war.

They purge sin, that's all. Granted, arrogance, as pride, can be the source of most sin, if not all. Now, not all leaders would necessarily end in Maldraxxus. Uther was certainly a leader, but ended in Bastion. Because being a leader, being in command, was not his first motivation. He wanted to serve first, and he ended up at the head of the Silver Hand. But it was not his ambition that put him there.