BiS Covenant for each Class / Spec

[NineSpine]

If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.

If you think you are gonna be banned from M+ for not being venthyr, I don't really have words for you just laughter.

[ydraw]

You can choose to feel bad about them or you can choose to feel good when you get to use yours. That's really up to you.

Or....or.....you could just ensure that you invite someone of that covenant to your group, so you never have to feel bad. Which is what will actually happen. Sorry this is so confusing for you.

And you keep using the word "elitists" like this is something that only "elitists" will do.

Sorry, but M+ dungeons are on a timer. It's not "elitist" in any way to want to maximise your chances of completing the dungeon within that timer. Which means inviting someone of the correct covenant so that you may use that dungeons covenant-specific buffs, which every dungeon in Shadowlands has.

Just like it's not "elitist" to want to have someone in your group who can cast bloodlust. That's just good planning. It's not the player's fault that Blizzard chooses to only give certain spells to certain classes, and then designs dungeons and their timers around the assumption that you actually have those spells available to you.

[Gestopft]

If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.

And this is the whole point, right.

People don't typically ask you what talents or azerite traits you are using when you apply to M+ because it's a safe assumption that you are choosing the ones that are good for M+ if you are interested in M+. And that's a safe asssumption to make because you can change your talents in 3 seconds to the M+ suitable ones.

But you won't be able to do that with covenants. So groups won't assume that you are Night Fae when you apply to a group for Mists of Tirna Scithe. But if they don't already have a Night Fae member in their group, they are going to ask specifically for that.

The important word is bolded, and why I think the concern of "not being able to get into groups because of covenant-specific dungeon buffs" is overblown. You only need one, and it could be any class or role that brings that, so it shouldn't be that hard of a requirement to fill. If they do happen to get to four people and nobody is that particular covenant, then sure, they'll be looking specifically for the last person to be a particular covenenant- but each covenant has their own 'buff' dungeons, so unless covenant balance is way off, most players are going to be fairly equally 'affected' by this.

[fwc577]

I think its still too early to discuss BiS covenant however the fact that players are looking for "BiS" of a game mechanic already shows its badly implemented and will cause problems. If it so happens as "BiS per class" then where will the diversity and uniqueness of classes and choice go?

IMO, they need to separate covenants from powers. Choose whichever covenant you want to play as but then should be allowed to choose which covenant spell you play with.

[ydraw]

but each covenant has their own 'buff' dungeons, so unless covenant balance is way off, most players are going to be fairly equally 'affected' by this.

The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same. So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.

So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.

[Lyrel8490]

If you pick your covenant based solely on the class ability, you are going to have a bad time.

Even with the other options taken into consideration (with that i mean signature abilities too) it's still necrolord.

it's just a fact that the ability is really strong for the 2 prominent specs of warlock.

the fact that all the other class abilities are just so much weaker doesn't help either.

Sure some of the other signature abilities of the other covenants may be better. but it just doesn't make up the difference imo.

besides. i will level 4 warlocks anyway one covenant each. since i wont put trust into any promises blizz makes about not nerfing the best covenants too much etc. and to simply experience all covenants.

[Gestopft]

The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same.

Yes, I am aware. The buff dungeons correspond with the covenant's zone, yes?

So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.

I don't think it will be nearly as bad as you think it will be. Again: you only need one of the players to be of a covenant to activate the buff. There are four covenants and five players in a group. Putting together a group agnostic of covenant choice would give you slightly more than a 3/4 chance of already having a member of the needed covenant, so I don't think math agrees with "a good percentage of the groups" are going to be looking for that one covenant.

So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.

Assuming reasonably BIS distribution and reasonably covenant balance among players, this is going to affect everyone roughly the same.

[goldlock]

Nope, I have seen their gear in BoD. They had literal garbage gear not even close to "bis". And it has been like this for good couple of years. You have clearly no clue as it's even mathematically impossible for them to get "near bis" in 2 resets. Even with gear funneling the best they can get is like half of the gear from heroic. Not to mention only like ~6 items from myhic.

So please acting like you know if you are wrong.

having half your gear be heroic entering into mythic is a rather large advantage... look I know im not going to convince you of anything but how you think it works and how it works are different enough for this to not make sense.

[NineSpine]

The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same. So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.

So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.

This is really just not mathematically how it's going to work. You only need one person from the covenant. You are acting like the only person in any group that is in the bonus covenant is going to be the 5th person added to the group. That's not how this works.

[Elias01]

It will be interesting to see how the " BIS" turns out compared to what people think is the more interesting choice.

It will also be interesting to see how much it really matters in the end. I can see where it could just end up being a fun thing, but I also see a situation where it could turn into a nightmare even for the most casual of players.

Classes didnt turn into nighmare and so will not covenants.

[kaminaris]

having half your gear be heroic entering into mythic is a rather large advantage... look I know im not going to convince you of anything but how you think it works and how it works are different enough for this to not make sense.

Dude, have you seen their gear in BoD? half of them had 385 trinkets from M5, with average ilvl of 404 ilvl where raid dropped 415 and max was 425.

[goldlock]

Dude, have you seen their gear in BoD? half of them had 385 trinkets from M5, with average ilvl of 404 ilvl where raid dropped 415 and max was 425.

That trinket was bis if its the one im thinking of for most classes...

[NotTrolling]

This thread is worthless when they don't even tune numbers until extremely late in beta, potentially a few weeks before launch

[ydraw]

Assuming reasonably BIS distribution and reasonably covenant balance among players, this is going to affect everyone roughly the same.

I really don't think you can assume reasonable covenant balance among players though, since one of the covenants (Night Fae) comes with an incredibly useful non-combat ability that is going to push way more people into that covenant than the others.

As it stands there's already a heirarchy of covenants based on their non-combat abilities which puts Night Fae clearly on top and Necrolords clearly on the bottom, since a lot of people will choose their covenant for QoL reasons.

[kaminaris]

That trinket was bis if its the one im thinking of for most classes...

Bis is bis, not scuffed 30 ilvl lower than bis.

[goldlock]

Bis is bis, not scuffed 30 ilvl lower than bis.

I have no idea what it is your trying to say... I mean even now eternal palace trinkets are being used in the last tier.

[Nyel]

This thread is worthless when they don't even tune numbers until extremely late in beta, potentially a few weeks before launch

Some Covenant skills are inherently bad and not even number tuning will make them good.

[Osmeric]

I'm thinking Blizzard could have saved a lot of development money by just not doing any of this crap that players really don't want.

[goldlock]

I'm thinking Blizzard could have saved a lot of development money by just not doing any of this crap that players really don't want.

I mean... that has been argued since the original artifact weapons. I saw a ton of excitement for having weapons that unlocked new looks as you played and that part of the system was loved. I don't know why they removed the singular part of the system people liked and kept the horrid grind everyone complained about. Sure they made it better (at the start you had to do your artifact research each week so late comers where screwed) I still never heard more then maybe one in a hundred people say they enjoy it.

Busy work systems seem like the way of the future though if you want to avoid them play classic (without doing pvp) or tbc when it comes out.

[Armourboy]

I'm thinking Blizzard could have saved a lot of development money by just not doing any of this crap that players really don't want.

I think the whole thing would have been viewed as an overwhelmingly positive system if they had just let it be a cosmetic/storyline choice.

Blizzards issue of late hasn't been about good ideas, it's the execution that has left us scratching our heads.