Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[Echo of Soul]

A good player will be able to do almost any content at all with almost any build, bar the highest keys & world firsts.

A good (and mature to be frank) player will find out what works best for him and work with that, a great player will find out what sims the best and learn to execute that build flawlessly. A kid will pick what sims best even if their dps goes down due to them not being very good.

There are way too many players suffering from undeserved hubris in this game.

[Rageonit]

Not for progress. If you outgear or get pl for everything you do, yeah min/max doesn't count. Else, if you fail on something while you could have done better if you had just chosen the right talents, well that's on you of course, and worse you also failed your teammates. Players who might have chosen to not use the talent they think funnier to be better for the group.
And you don't need to be in top tier mythic raid guild to be in that situation.

The solutions is quite simple though. Try again. Wipe again, and try again. Wait for reset, kill a few bosses more, get better gear, and try again. Until you succeed. That's how WoW always worked, ain't it. So what will those "better" talents change? That you will finish the current raid tier a week earlier? Two weeks? A month even?
You are right, I am too in a guild that progresses raids - and we have all kinds of players in that guild. If a mage wants to go arcane, because he loves arcane and hates fire, we will not chastise him - we will encourage him. If your first thought is to blame such a person, you're not there for the guild, you're there for your loot - and I can't force myself to care for people with that attitude.

[Lolites]

I think the weirdest thing about these convos to me is that some people act like the covenant abilities are all very simple, pure ST abilities, which is really the only way they could ever be "within 1%" of each other or something.

and thats not people say or want... at least thats not what i mean when i speak of balance (cant realy speak for others)
"1% difference" means that OVERALL, in all possible scenarios, there will be tiny difference, not that all abilities will be equal in EVERY scenario...
ofc there will be scenarios where some abilities are useless while other will shine, but thats truth about talents and general class abilities...

[kranur]

Legion artifact handling for multiple dps specs is your best indicator of how the updates to them will work.

[Lolites]

Yeah but it goes both ways, few people care what mythic guilds are going to do. In fact, there's probably more people not caring what mythic players are going to do, than there are mythic players not caring about the rest /shrug

thats not probably, thats provable mythic raiders are in minority...
not to mention some mythic raiders (me and people in my guild for example) actualy know that we will clear it with any covenants too, maybe just week later than we would with "best", which means fuck all to us as we dont aim for hall of fame...

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It's not Blizzards fault they don't get the chance to properly test this stuff before a release, if they had that chance through things like...ALPHAS...BETAS...PTR... MAYBE they would be able to properly tune them before release so that nerfs wouldn't impact players time so heavily, don't blame them alright.

i see your knowledge of game develompent is so amazing you dont even know numbers are tuned among the very last things before release...

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What does one have to do with the other

underperforming bcs of your choice after nerf? its not that hard to grasp...

[Sofo1]

Unlikely. Due to commitment nature of covenant and legendaries, what you can expect is that they will try to do vast majority of nerfs and buffs before launch.

Then once we're heroic week they will do their 5% here and there and maybe tone down some combos that go out of hand, but in such manner that they will still remain strong.

Commitment makes it hard for them to make sweeping changes, it will be like in BFA - where if something is getting out of hand they will tap it a bit and do their usual "at this point we'd rather not make drastic changes, because setups are done", just like they did with 8.2 and 8.3.

It's basically going to be Fire Mage or Shadow Priest situation all over again, where they won't be really nerfing them aside from token 5%, even if they seem to snowball hard. Then when 9.1 comes they will do big adjustments with generous heads up.

didn't they fuck over sub rogue in uldir in a similar manner?

[Tarba]

The solutions is quite simple though. Try again. Wipe again, and try again. Wait for reset, kill a few bosses more, get better gear, and try again. Until you succeed. That's how WoW always worked, ain't it. So what will those "better" talents change? That you will finish the current raid tier a week earlier? Two weeks? A month even?
You are right, I am too in a guild that progresses raids - and we have all kinds of players in that guild. If a mage wants to go arcane, because he loves arcane and hates fire, we will not chastise him - we will encourage him. If your first thought is to blame such a person, you're not there for the guild, you're there for your loot - and I can't force myself to care for people with that attitude.

No you don't care about people.
"Okay guys we will wipe and wipe on that boss and wait for maybe next week reset for more stuff because it's a aoe boss and I don't want to make any effort. Not sure it will be enought but heh, there is an other week after that !"
Maybe that's how you see the game, but most of the time people are more inclined to take a better talent than wasting weeks.
If you see a "take those talents instead, you'll do better and help the group" like a blame, or a brimade. Well, you have serious issues and should stay out of group content.

[Kumorii]

No indeed. There are many scrubs in group content making things harder for others, just hoping for PL.
But many people are also not like that and actually care about doing a 5 minutes search on internet to know what to do to bring the best of their character.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

[Lolites]

No you don't care about people.
"Okay guys we will wipe and wipe on that boss and wait for maybe next week reset for more stuff because it's a aoe boss and I don't want to make any effort. Not sure it will be enought but heh, there is an other week after that !"
Maybe that's how you see the game, but most of the time people are more inclined to take a better talent than wasting weeks.
If you see a "take those talents instead, you'll do better and help the group" like a blame, or a brimade. Well, you have serious issues and should stay out of group content.

actualy quite the oposite - "play what is best for others" is WORST attitude unless you aim for hall of fame, game should be fun in the first place so "play what you like, well celear it a week later" is best attitude for most people...

[Rageonit]

No you don't care about people.
"Okay guys we will wipe and wipe on that boss and wait for maybe next week reset for more stuff because it's a aoe boss and I don't want to make any effort. Not sure it will be enought but heh, there is an other week after that !"
Maybe that's how you see the game, but most of the time people are more inclined to take a better talent than wasting weeks.
If you see a "take those talents instead, you'll do better and help the group" like a blame, or a brimade. Well, you have serious issues and should stay out of group content.

First of all, I've never said that I AM the arcane mage. I'm not, I'm the person that encourages him to play what he loves. Moreover, noone is forced to stay in our guild - if you don't enjoy our attitude ("play what you love, we will support you even if it means we have to wipe"), you can leave and look for greener pastures. And if you think it's bad there is environment for people with that mindset... that there are actually guilds that think that way and support their members... and then claim that "We don't care about people!"... Wow. I think you should rethink your priorities.

[Tharendil]

underperforming bcs of your choice after nerf? its not that hard to grasp...

It's not about being nerfed, it's about having to switch your covenant because a different ability ends up being better.

[Lolites]

It's not about being nerfed, it's about having to switch your covenant because a different ability ends up being better.

which is the same with FOTM classes...
with the difference that changing class (which top players do after nerfs/buffs) takes more time and effort, and differences among classes are usualy WAY higher than among covnenats (and thats before their final number tuning)...

[Echo of Soul]

No indeed. There are many scrubs in group content making things harder for others, just hoping for PL.
But many people are also not like that and actually care about doing a 5 minutes search on internet to know what to do to bring the best of their character.

The Internet can't answer that for you. It can only tell you what is best when played flawlessly, only you can figure out what's best for your character with you behind the wheels.

You see it every day, players who perform worse when being forced into the meta choice but excel when free to pick what they're comfortable with and enjoy.

Playing a meta build for some players can feel like going to a job that you hate.

[Tharendil]

which is the same with FOTM classes...
with the difference that changing class (which top players do after nerfs/buffs) takes more time and effort...

You can have multiple classes. You can't have multiple covenants on a character. You can have multiple covenants across different characters, but if I want to take advantage of all abilities of my class, I would have to have 4 characters of the same class, and assign each one to a different covenant. That is not very practical.

Please stop making stupid comparisons.

[Lolites]

You can have multiple classes. You can't have multiple covenants on a character. You can have multiple covenants across different characters, but if I want to take advantage of all abilities of my class, I would have to have 4 characters of the same class, and assign each one to a different covenant.

Please stop making stupid comparisons.

you can have multiple classes on the same character? no? so that point is completely moot...
you dont have to have multiple of the same class, you can CHANGE COVENANT ffs, you cant change class...

if you dont understand the analogy between covenant and class, its not the analogy that is stupid...

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The Internet can't answer that for you. It can only tell you what is best when played flawlessly, only you can figure out what's best for your character with you behind the wheels.

You see it every day, players who perform worse when being forced into the meta choice but excel when free to pick what they're comfortable with and enjoy.

Playing a meta build for some players can feel like going to a job that you hate.

its pointless to argue with people like that, they cant understand that all sims are made for perfect execution, they think only with meta build you do well and with other builds you are getting carried... which is quite often opposite of reality...

[Tharendil]

you can CHANGE COVENANT

yeah it'll take over a week

you cant change class...

you can have 50 characters on your account
almost everyone nowadays has one of each class at max level
I have had that since wrath

I don't see what point you're trying to make

nobody is complaining about fotm classes in here

covenants are still shit, no matter how many dumb comparisons you can come up with

[Echo of Soul]

It's quite funny that op is thinking "gotcha!" when in reality the nerfing of covenant abilities only really affects and upsets you if you're in his "power power power" mindset. Most reasonable people would probably assume that covenant abilities will be tweaked along the line in order to get them closer together. Sometimes that'll mean a buff and sometimes it'll mean a nerf. What it won't mean is something being nerfed to the ground to where it's essentially a dead button.

[Tharendil]

if you're in his "power power power" mindset

there is no point in picking the weak ability

[Echo of Soul]

there is no point in picking the weak ability

Just like there's no point in playing the weak class? Everyone always play fotm regardless of them enjoying it or not?

[Tharendil]

Just like there's no point in playing the weak class? Everyone always play fotm regardless of them enjoying it or not?

If a class is so weak, it can't compete with other classes in PvE or PvP, then yes. There is no point in playing that class. Luckily that isn't the case. A class like that would be broken. This is why balancing exists.

Every class has its niche, and no class is strong or weak against all other classes. Every class has a reason to be brought to raids, and every class has utility in PvP.

Stop comparing talents to classes.