Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

And if anything, this just means that his friend that armed him, is looking at charges too.

Right. You can't just give a friend a weapon, like that. Especially if they're a minor and not under your supervision. It's worse than if Rittenhouse had brought the weapon from home; it adds additional crimes and involves additional bad actors. It does not in any way reduce Rittenhouse's legal liabilities here; the issue was never "Rittenhouse brought the weapon from home", it was "Rittenhouse was illegally carrying when he shot three people".

[Aurrora]

Those facts have not been "debunked" in any appreciable way whatsoever. He travelled there from out of state and deliberately armed himself for that purpose.

If he got his weapon from a friend rather than bringing it from home, that doesn't change any significant factor. He still would be carrying illegally, and all it really does is make his friend an accessory to the murders.

This is exactly what I meant about you cherry-picking things to fit your predetermined desired conclusions. You are not engaging honestly from the get-go.

He traveled there from "Out of state" because he works there, and "out of state" is a 15 minute drive away. Do you think his employment is not a matter of record? Whether he was carrying illegally or not is both up for debate and completely irrelevant to his right to self defense. So, show me a fucking lawyer that says Kyle Rittenhouse did not have the right to defend himself from Rosenbaum attacking him.

[postman1782]

He traveled there from "Out of state" because he works there, and "out of state" is a 15 minute drive away. Do you think his employment is not a matter of record? Whether he was carrying illegally or not is both up for debate and completely irrelevant to his right to self defense. So, show me a fucking lawyer that says Kyle Rittenhouse did not have the right to defend himself from Rosenbaum attacking him.

There is no debate, he was carrying illegally. The Wisconsin laws are pretty clear here. And again, with witness testimony, from 2 witnesses Rittenhouse is the aggressor here now Rosenbaum.

[Aurrora]

There is no debate, he was carrying illegally. The Wisconsin laws are pretty clear here. And again, with witness testimony, from 2 witnesses Rittenhouse is the aggressor here now Rosenbaum.

There is no witness testimony, you have someone with only a first name talking to a journalist, you do not have someone making a statement to police that this happened. Do you not remember all the supposed witnesses for Michael Brown that that all changed their mind when they had to make a statement under penalty of perjury? What we do have is video that shows Rosenbaum making an aggressive move at Kyle that begins the chase, and witness testimony that corroborates this.

[postman1782]

There is no witness testimony, you have someone with only a first name talking to a journalist, you do not have someone making a statement to police that this happened. Do you not remember all the supposed witnesses for Michael Brown that that all changed their mind when they had to make a statement under penalty of perjury? What we do have is video that shows Rosenbaum making an aggressive move at Kyle that begins the chase, and witness testimony that corroborates this.

Oh, thanks for going the extra step and ignoring witness testimony, just like you ignored other lawyers telling Rittenhouse's lawyer that he should try his defense if he wants to lose. But hey, you keep shilling for domestic terrorists.

[Endus]

He traveled there from "Out of state" because he works there, and "out of state" is a 15 minute drive away.

Neither of which matters. I really do wonder why you keep bringing them up.

Whether he was carrying illegally or not is both up for debate and completely irrelevant to his right to self defense.

It really isn't.

In Wisconsin, the only exceptions that allow a minor to carry a weapon have to do with hunting. Was Kyle hunting? No? Then he wasn't legally permitted to carry a weapon.

And choosing to arm yourself illegally puts any possibility of self defense out the window.

So, show me a fucking lawyer that says Kyle Rittenhouse did not have the right to defend himself from Rosenbaum attacking him.

That's a horseshit phrasing.

He had the right to defend himself, proportional to the threat posed by Rosenbaum. Which could not justify the use of lethal force.

As for lawyers who confirm that, you've been provided multiple sources, and you just ignore them, because you're not interested in coming to a better understanding of the facts; you made up your mind on what your position would be solely out of partisan bias.

[Aurrora]

Neither of which matters. I really do wonder why you keep bringing them up.

He was a member of the community, you keep alleging he traveled from out of state to attend the protest as evidence when it's not.

It really isn't.

In Wisconsin, the only exceptions that allow a minor to carry a weapon have to do with hunting. Was Kyle hunting? No? Then he wasn't legally permitted to carry a weapon.

It absolutely is debatable.

And choosing to arm yourself illegally puts any possibility of self defense out the window.

No it doesn't, stop lying.

That's a horseshit phrasing.

He had the right to defend himself, proportional to the threat posed by Rosenbaum. Which could not justify the use of lethal force.

As for lawyers who confirm that, you've been provided multiple sources, and you just ignore them, because you're not interested in coming to a better understanding of the facts; you made up your mind on what your position would be solely out of partisan bias.

You are allowed to use lethal force if you fear great bodily harm or death. A person that has already attacked you, that has made statements that he wants to beat up people and take their weapon, and is in the process of committing felony assault and felony theft on you, absolutely is a threat of great bodily harm or death. And on top of that someone fired a handgun towards Kyle as Rosenbaum was pursuing him, that adds to the perceived threat. That absolutely justifies lethal force.

[Deus Mortis]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/portland-s...203900737.html

Portland suspect waited in garage before shooting pro-Trump protester: Court documents

The shooting occurred near the entrance to a parking garage, on the west side of Southwest Third Avenue, just south of Southwest Alder Street, at 8:44 p.m. local time, according to court documents. Detectives obtained surveillance video from Moda Tower, an office building in downtown Portland, that captured the intersection of Southwest Third Avenue and Southwest Alder Street.

The court records allege that Reinoehl can be seen in the surveillance footage at that time at the northeast corner of the intersection. He allegedly then crosses southbound on Southwest Third Avenue with three others, stares east down Southwest Alder Street, then continues.

Danielson and a friend are then seen rounding the corner from the east and turning south onto Southwest Third Avenue, according to the court records. Reinoehl looks back toward them, "but continues walking and begins reaching toward his waistband," the affidavit states.

MORE: Suspect sought in connection of deadly Portland shooting killed during encounter with authorities

According to court records, Reinoehl then concealed himself and waited in the garage entry and watched as Danielson and his friend walked by. "Danielson appears to be holding a can in his right hand and what appears to be an expandable baton in his left hand," the affidavit states.

After they walk by, Reinoehl emerges from the garage "while still reaching toward the pocket or pouch on his waistband," the court documents allege. An unidentified person looks back toward Reinoehl, and Reinoehl and that second person follow Danielson and his friend as they cross westbound across Southwest Third Avenue, according to the affidavit. "The shooting occurs shortly thereafter and is not captured on the surveillance video," it states.

This would explain why he probably did suicide by cop if the initial reports are correct.

[Endus]

He was a member of the community, you keep alleging he traveled form out of state to attend the protest as evidence when it's not.

It's a literal fact. You keep disputing it for some reason.

It absolutely is debatable.

And yet, you've never made a single argument that would provide an alternative interpretation. Not one.

No it doesn't, stop lying.

If you think someone might punch you for sleeping with their girlfriend, and you make sure you've got a gun on you when you see them next so you can shoot them when they try to, that's murder, not self defense. Your choice to arm yourself makes it premeditated, first-degree murder.

That choice to arm yourself indicates premeditation.

You are allowed to use lethal force if you fear great bodily harm or death.

Wrong. Only if a reasonable person would believe that such were imminent. If your fear is unreasonable, it doesn't matter how real that fear is; that just means you're a dangerous paranoid.

A person that has already attacked you, that has made statements that he wants to beat up people and take their weapon, and is in the process of committing felony assault and felony theft on you, absolutely is a threat of great bodily harm or death.

That's a straight-up lie. Nothing about that leads to the conclusion you're trying to draw.

It's also a lie in that it misrepresents the facts. Rosenbaum hadn't attacked Rittenhouse. He made no statements that he wanted to beat someone up. You're making shit up.

And on top of that someone fired a handgun towards Kyle as Rosenbaum was pursuing him, that adds to the perceived threat. That absolutely justifies lethal force.

They did not fire towards Kyle. That's a lie.

It also does not contribute to the threat; if Kyle had shot at the shooter, you could make that claim, maybe. But at Rosenbaum? Not justified at all.

You keep making wild assertions of completely irrational leaps as if they're justifiable. They aren't. You're describing a panicky, paranoid, violent psychopath.

[muto]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/portland-s...203900737.html

Portland suspect waited in garage before shooting pro-Trump protester: Court documents



This would explain why he probably did suicide by cop if the initial reports are correct.

Yeah he basically ambushed him.

[GreenJesus]

It's a literal fact. You keep disputing it for some reason.



And yet, you've never made a single argument that would provide an alternative interpretation. Not one.



If you think someone might punch you for sleeping with their girlfriend, and you make sure you've got a gun on you when you see them next so you can shoot them when they try to, that's murder, not self defense. Your choice to arm yourself makes it premeditated, first-degree murder.

That choice to arm yourself indicates premeditation.



Wrong. Only if a reasonable person would believe that such were imminent. If your fear is unreasonable, it doesn't matter how real that fear is; that just means you're a dangerous paranoid.



That's a straight-up lie. Nothing about that leads to the conclusion you're trying to draw.

It's also a lie in that it misrepresents the facts. Rosenbaum hadn't attacked Rittenhouse. He made no statements that he wanted to beat someone up. You're making shit up.


They did not fire towards Kyle. That's a lie.

It also does not contribute to the threat; if Kyle had shot at the shooter, you could make that claim, maybe. But at Rosenbaum? Not justified at all.

You keep making wild assertions of completely irrational leaps as if they're justifiable. They aren't. You're describing a panicky, paranoid, violent psychopath.

How is hearing a gunshot come from just behind him while someone is chasing him NOT an imminent threat? A reasonable person would fear for their life. But I get it. You are canadian so you've probably dealt with close deadly encounters with Caribou and Moose chasing after you before so you probably wouldn't be afraid of gunshots. "They did not fire towards Kyle." Kyle was running away in the opposite direction. How was he supposed to know they "didn't fire towards" him? Gunshots don't exactly tell you which direction the guy pointed it at whether it was in the sky, on the ground, or 30 degrees to the right. All he know is someone is angrily chasing him and there was a gunshot behind him.

[Shalcker]

What’s frustrating as fuck is how pro-Trump supporters can even begin to claim that such shootings aren’t commonplace in America AND are not a a massive issue. It’s sad and sickening.

US destroyed a lot of capacity in their mental health institutions and "community-based" replacements had quite limited success; thus the only remaining holding point for large portion of mentally ill is police and prisons.

https://www.nri-inc.org/our-work/nri...-1970-to-2014/

As of 2014, the year for which the most recent data on specialty mental health providers are available, there were over 170,000 residents in inpatient and other 24-hour residential treatment beds on any given night, an average of over 53.6 patients per 100,000 population. Although 170,000 residents in 24-hour treatment beds every day may seem a large number, it reflects a 64 percent decrease in psychiatric residents from 1970. When data are adjusted for the growth in the population of the United States since 1970, the decline in beds is an even greater 77.4 percent.

Underlying this decline in psychiatric inpatient capacity are major shifts in the location of where individuals with acute psychiatric needs receive 24-hour care. It is true that state and county psychiatric hospitals and VA Medical Centers have experienced large reductions in psychiatric capacity, while private psychiatric hospitals and general hospital specialty units have increased over time. However, both the state mental health and VA systems have drastically reorganized their approaches to providing care over the past 44 years, shifting resources and workforce to focus on delivering community-based outpatient services that have included intensive evidence-based services, such as Assertive Community Treatment (ACT), designed to reduce the need for intensive inpatient services. In 2014, only two percent of the 7.3 million mental health clients served by State Mental Health Agencies (SMHA) were inpatients in a state psychiatric hospital and only four percent of the 1.5 million veterans with a mental illness served by the VA received inpatient mental health services in a VA Medical Center.

[postman1782]

How is hearing a gunshot come from just behind him while someone is chasing him NOT an imminent threat? A reasonable person would fear for their life. But I get it. You are canadian so you've probably dealt with close deadly encounters with Caribou and Moose chasing after you before so you probably wouldn't be afraid of gunshots. "They did not fire towards Kyle." Kyle was running away in the opposite direction. How was he supposed to know they "didn't fire towards" him? Gunshots don't exactly tell you which direction the guy pointed it at whether it was in the sky, on the ground, or 30 degrees to the right. All he know is someone is angrily chasing him and there was a gunshot behind him.

Because Rosenbaum didn't shoot the shot. If he was reacting to the shot, now it is just another reason for murder and the reckless endangerment charges.

[SirBeef]

So, if he turned his back, how did he get shot 3 times in the front?

- - - Updated - - -



Uncivil Law
Nate the Lawyer
R&R Law Group
Colion Noir
Rekiata Law
Donut Operator(former law enforcement perspective, not lawyer)

Not doing your work for you. Link the actual links to what you said.

- - - Updated - - -

Except what you're doing is cherry-picking the few lawyers saying who support the conclusion you want to hear, rather than making an honest attempt to consider the evidence.

I already linked you to multiple lawyers who disagree with that viewpoint, and you chose to just ignore them.

Just like climate change deniers. Of course they go with what they believe even if it's only 1% of the professionals saying it.

[Coolthulhu]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/portland-s...203900737.html

Portland suspect waited in garage before shooting pro-Trump protester: Court documents

Reminds me of that one scene in House of Cards, season... 2 I believe it was.

[KaPe]

Because Rosenbaum didn't shoot the shot. If he was reacting to the shot, now it is just another reason for murder and the reckless endangerment charges.

And if it would get accepted as a reasonable reason for shooting somebody... hoboy. Anytime one hears a loud noise vaguely similar to gunshot, they can shoot to kill? Even if the person they are supposedly threatened by was not armed with a gun? What a convenient excuse they'd hand to a lot of people who are just itching for some vigilante action.

[Bodakane]

How is hearing a gunshot come from just behind him while someone is chasing him NOT an imminent threat? A reasonable person would fear for their life. But I get it. You are canadian so you've probably dealt with close deadly encounters with Caribou and Moose chasing after you before so you probably wouldn't be afraid of gunshots. "They did not fire towards Kyle." Kyle was running away in the opposite direction. How was he supposed to know they "didn't fire towards" him? Gunshots don't exactly tell you which direction the guy pointed it at whether it was in the sky, on the ground, or 30 degrees to the right. All he know is someone is angrily chasing him and there was a gunshot behind him.

If you aren’t wearing a mask and are walking towards me, I’d have right to shoot you following your guys’ logic.

[Mayhem]

How is hearing a gunshot come from just behind him while someone is chasing him NOT an imminent threat? A reasonable person would fear for their life. But I get it. You are canadian so you've probably dealt with close deadly encounters with Caribou and Moose chasing after you before so you probably wouldn't be afraid of gunshots. "They did not fire towards Kyle." Kyle was running away in the opposite direction. How was he supposed to know they "didn't fire towards" him? Gunshots don't exactly tell you which direction the guy pointed it at whether it was in the sky, on the ground, or 30 degrees to the right. All he know is someone is angrily chasing him and there was a gunshot behind him.

You unknowingly make the argument against Kyle's self-defense claim. If he doesn't know where the shots came from, he can't just shoot the next best guy that looks like a possible threat.

[eschatological]

We're talking about the words of the witness in the criminal complaint, not the defense attorney.

In fact it's right there in the coroner's autopsy report "a gunshot wound to the back which perforated his right lung and liver," back, right lung, and liver, the bullet traveled down the torso because the shot hit the back as Rosenbaum was falling towards Kyle.

The liver is actually quite close tot he right lung, and there doesn't need to be a serious angle to hit both.

- - - Updated - - -

*Sigh* Please, tell us how he managed to shoot him three times in the front and then once in the back in under a second? You know you don't suddenly not become the aggressor if your back is exposed while attacking someone right?

Does the autopsy specify that the shot to the groin, left hand, and the head graze were front to back?

Or are you just assuming they are?

Cause those shots can come from all different angles. Behind, to the side, etc.

[Ooid]

If you aren’t wearing a mask and are walking towards me, I’d have right to shoot you following your guys’ logic.

No, but if you go out of your way to avoid them and they keep following you and trying to cough on you then I guess you might have a cause to shoot.