Seriously, f**k Hunters Mark

[Biomega]

The problem isn't so much that using HM is prohibitively difficult or complicated - it's just that it's ANNOYING FOR NO REASON.

It doesn't add meaningful decisions, it's not a core rotational ability, it's just a stupid chore action they squeezed in because some people on Classic were like "uuuhmmmgeerrrd Hunter with Hunter's Mark that's so ICONIIIIC!!!!111".

[Eapoe]

There is absolutely nothing to worry about. On the beta hunters do very good AOE damage no matter what. We don't even need to use HM on AOE packs as it wont affect the overall AOE damage much. We do great AOE damage no matter what. On single target you will of course lose out a lot if you don't use HM but in AOE scenarios it wont have much impact on the overall total AOE damage. We are in a great spot for both dungeons and raids. No need to worry.

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Personally I think you are. It plays perfectly fine on the beta for both MM and BM. It doesn't clog anything up in my opinion. We have plenty of free GCDs in our AOE rotation to use it, and even if we don't use it in an AOE scenario we still do very competitive damage. In practice everything works out fine.

Where are you getting your damage sources from? Is it being broken down per ability? Last I saw was from one of the guide writers who also noted that Hunters are doing great AoE in large part to the tar trap/flare legendary being stupid OP right now.

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I think a lot of hunters will change their minds when they actually try it in SL and realize that they were overreacting. Hunter (especially BM) is in general a very free class so anything that puts the smallest restriction on our gameplay will typically be perceived as an outrage. HM puts a little bit of restriction on our target switching but it looks much worse on the paper than it actually plays like in practice. And a lot of other classes have abilities that functions similar to HM or have other limitations to their target switching. It's a completely normal thing in WoW.

Except HM is still part of the GCD when Blizzard just took multiple CDs off the GCD that do no damage and are what allows you to do damage after it’s applied. When you say a lot of other classes I can only assume you mean something like Mages with Circle of Power, which is now activated off of one of their other spells automatically.

[Nythiz]

I understand that. But HM only affects a single target so Blizzard have not tuned AOE based on HM. You can see that in the beta. And isn't that what matters in the end? If Hunter still does very competitive damage in AOE then everything is fine.

I personally think you are overreacting with this. I have played with HM on the beta and it feel completely fine. It's pretty smooth to use in dungeons since we have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation and Hunter does really good damage. So there isn't really anything to worry about. It's not so important how it looks on the paper if it feels fine in practice.

For me the problem is not so much in AoE vs ST.
I realize AoE will be balanced without HM in mind; my issues is with priority targets. They have and always will exist in end game content, be it Raids, M+ or PvP.
And the fact HM exists will make us inherently weaker at priority target swapping, especially if they are prio targets with 0-20 second lifespans.

As for your comment on AoE GCDs make little sense.
How does a class that can generate focus and spend focus at any moment have "free GCDs"
The moment I have to use a GCD for hunters mark, is a moment I could have started casting steady shot / multi shot.
It's not much damage/time lost, but it IS damage/time lost.

On top of that there will be a lot of scenarios where the reapplication of hunters mark and your AoE burst coincide.
What if RF just comes off cooldown and your target that had HM on it just dies. Do you reapply first and sit on the RF or do you fire without HM boost?
And this is not about DPS balance, those minor occurrences will fall away on damage meters over the larger whole; but this IS about just the feeling bad having to maintain such a buff.

[dexx]

I'm okay with it coming back. but it really shouldn't be on the GCD.

Agreed. Either take it off GCD or make it apply from some other attack (aimed, rapid, whatever)

[Kaver]

Where are you getting your damage sources from? Is it being broken down per ability? Last I saw was from one of the guide writers who also noted that Hunters are doing great AoE in large part to the tar trap/flare legendary being stupid OP right now.

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Except HM is still part of the GCD when Blizzard just took multiple CDs off the GCD that do no damage and are what allows you to do damage after it’s applied. When you say a lot of other classes I can only assume you mean something like Mages with Circle of Power, which is now activated off of one of their other spells automatically.

The numbers are from playing the beta right now. Hunters are doing great. HM is still on the GCD and in my opinion it is completely fine. Our rotation flows very well and there are plenty of free GCDs we can use on HM when switching targets. All the issues that people have seems to be on the paper but they are not really issues in practice when you play the specs.

I didn't so much think of Circle of Power. I meant other classes have ability like HM that only affects their damage on one target. So they are also effectively doing less damage to enemies not affected by those abilities. But it is completely fine and has been a part of the game for a long time. Just not for hunters.

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For me the problem is not so much in AoE vs ST.
I realize AoE will be balanced without HM in mind; my issues is with priority targets. They have and always will exist in end game content, be it Raids, M+ or PvP.
And the fact HM exists will make us inherently weaker at priority target swapping, especially if they are prio targets with 0-20 second lifespans.

As for your comment on AoE GCDs make little sense.
How does a class that can generate focus and spend focus at any moment have "free GCDs"
The moment I have to use a GCD for hunters mark, is a moment I could have started casting steady shot / multi shot.
It's not much damage/time lost, but it IS damage/time lost.

On top of that there will be a lot of scenarios where the reapplication of hunters mark and your AoE burst coincide.
What if RF just comes off cooldown and your target that had HM on it just dies. Do you reapply first and sit on the RF or do you fire without HM boost?
And this is not about DPS balance, those minor occurrences will fall away on damage meters over the larger whole; but this IS about just the feeling bad having to maintain such a buff.

I get what you're saying, but this is the reality for a lot of classes/specs. Yes HM will restrict target switching more, but this is fine. This type of ability is already in the game for a lot of specs in one way or another. Not everything about classes in WoW should be without friction. The choice of using HM or not makes the combat a little more engaging. And in the end you're not extremely punished in AOE situations for not using HM since it will only impact a small fraction of your overall AOE damage. HM feels completely fine on the beta and people in here who hasn't even tried out the gameplay yet are completely overreacting in my opinion.

[Eosia]

Counting the covenant stuff along with KS, that's at least 4 active abilities added to my bars. I didn't sign up for all of that.

And THIS is why they ended up over-pruning abilities to begin with. Try playing Classic when you had not only extra abilities but two sets of them for melee and ranged.

[Eapoe]

The numbers are from playing the beta right now. Hunters are doing great. HM is still on the GCD and in my opinion it is completely fine. Our rotation flows very well and there are plenty of free GCDs we can use on HM when switching targets. All the issues that people have seems to be on the paper but they are not really issues in practice when you play the specs.

I didn't so much think of Circle of Power. I meant other classes have ability like HM that only affects their damage on one target. So they are also effectively doing less damage to enemies not affected by those abilities. But it is completely fine and has been a part of the game for a long time. Just not for hunters.

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I get what you're saying, but this is the reality for a lot of classes/specs. Yes HM will restrict target switching more, but this is fine. This type of ability is already in the game for a lot of specs in one way or another. Not everything about classes in WoW should be without friction. The choice of using HM or not makes the combat a little more engaging. And in the end you're not extremely punished in AOE situations for not using HM since it will only impact a small fraction of your overall AOE damage. HM feels completely fine on the beta and people in here who hasn't even tried out the gameplay yet are completely overreacting in my opinion.

But you’re not stating where that damage is coming from. As I’ve pointed out, the person on WoWhead that writes some of the guides flat out said that Hunter AoE is so strong right now due to an OP legendary that is fully expected to be nerfed, and that has nothing to do with HM or damage tuning to the class itself.
What other classes have abilities like HM?

[Kaver]

But you’re not stating where that damage is coming from. As I’ve pointed out, the person on WoWhead that writes some of the guides flat out said that Hunter AoE is so strong right now due to an OP legendary that is fully expected to be nerfed, and that has nothing to do with HM or damage tuning to the class itself.
What other classes have abilities like HM?

But I'm not playing with that Legendary. It was already nerfed from 900% AP to 210% AP.

All I'm saying is that playing hunter on beta feels good. And using HM in dungeons feels fine. It's not an issue at all. My overall dungeon damage is very good and if I sometimes don't use HM on a 5 target AOE pull then my damage is still very good.

Other classes also have single target debuffs they put on only one target that limits target switching like HM do. Rogue, Paladin, DK. The concept is not new at all.

[DeiVias]

But you’re not stating where that damage is coming from. As I’ve pointed out, the person on WoWhead that writes some of the guides flat out said that Hunter AoE is so strong right now due to an OP legendary that is fully expected to be nerfed.

It was nerfed almost 2 weeks ago, Hunters are still top tier AOE.

[Eapoe]

It was nerfed almost 2 weeks ago, Hunters are still top tier AOE.

And it’s still doing a lot of damage per the guide. Even with the nerf he hasn’t changed it from doing a huge amount of damage as well as being top tier legendary for both ST and AoE.

[Clash the DK]

And THIS is why they ended up over-pruning abilities to begin with. Try playing Classic when you had not only extra abilities but two sets of them for melee and ranged.

A. The pruning was fine; It was even necessary. Yeah so they pruned Eyes of the Beast. People need to get over that. Not a big deal.

B. Melee Hunter was a meme before Legion changed things for Survival. Not applicable to the conversation.

[Nythiz]

I get what you're saying, but this is the reality for a lot of classes/specs. Yes HM will restrict target switching more, but this is fine. This type of ability is already in the game for a lot of specs in one way or another. Not everything about classes in WoW should be without friction. The choice of using HM or not makes the combat a little more engaging. And in the end you're not extremely punished in AOE situations for not using HM since it will only impact a small fraction of your overall AOE damage. HM feels completely fine on the beta and people in here who hasn't even tried out the gameplay yet are completely overreacting in my opinion.

I can agree with this. Especially the last sentence.

However, I still think HM is simply not needed. If they want to bring it back as a bit of a nostalgic trademark, they could have done so in another way. This way you add a skill that does nothing, other than make balancing slightly harder.

[Eosia]

A. The pruning was fine; It was even necessary. Yeah so they pruned Eyes of the Beast. People need to get over that. Not a big deal.

B. Melee Hunter was a meme before Legion changed things for Survival. Not applicable to the conversation.

A. No., Even Blizzard said the pruning was overdone. As have players expac after expac after expac since at least Cata.

B. You obviously never played WoW before Wrath seeing as Hunters used to have a dead zone where the could not do anything, 5-8 yds, so they had melee abilities. moat of which came back in Legion for Survival, to do damage and also to disable the target so they can get back to 8+ yds so ranged attacks could be used again.

[scrappybristol]

Hunter's Mark just needs to be removed, it has no place in modern day wow

[Clash the DK]

A. No., Even Blizzard said the pruning was overdone. As have players expac after expac after expac since at least Cata.

B. You obviously never played WoW before Wrath seeing as Hunters used to have a dead zone where the could not do anything, 5-8 yds, so they had melee abilities. moat of which came back in Legion for Survival, to do damage and also to disable the target so they can get back to 8+ yds so ranged attacks could be used again.

A. Blizzard is just caving in because a small but vocal part of the community keeps throwing out the "pruned" buzzword. They will go back on that once again when the larger portion of the community complains that we once again have too many dumb buttons on our bars. Sit back and watch it unfold.

B. The only melee ability Hunters used was Raptor Strike and that was to get back out of range. That is not double the amount of buttons like you suggested.

[Ihazpaws]

It feels clunky in pve. I don't mind that but if it were off CCD then it would be easy to use and those who are super lazy could macro it with something. For pvp it is really good as it is now. Maybe it could be changed to purely just to track sthealted targets and be mainly for pvp?

[Sondrelk]

Hunter's Mark just needs to be removed, it has no place in modern day wow

The idea that you can mark something and you will always be able to see it, both on the screen and on the minimap has its merits. It just doesnt belong anywhere near influencing your DPS.

[Eosia]

A. Blizzard is just caving in because a small but vocal part of the community keeps throwing out the "pruned" buzzword. They will go back on that once again when the larger portion of the community complains that we once again have too many dumb buttons on our bars. Sit back and watch it unfold.

No, it's Blizzard realizing the've pulled an NGE and working to reverse it. And no, it wasn't a "small but vocal part of the community".

B. The only melee ability Hunters used was Raptor Strike and that was to get back out of range. That is not double the amount of buttons like you suggested.

Actually you're thinking about Wing Clip.

[Clash the DK]

No, it's Blizzard realizing the've pulled an NGE and working to reverse it. And no, it wasn't a "small but vocal part of the community".



Actually you're thinking about Wing Clip.

There was a small but vocal group of players that wanted Hunter's Mark baseline. And here we are.

Yes, Wing Clip it was.

[Kaver]

I can agree with this. Especially the last sentence.

However, I still think HM is simply not needed. If they want to bring it back as a bit of a nostalgic trademark, they could have done so in another way. This way you add a skill that does nothing, other than make balancing slightly harder.

I think HM could be cool if it simply funneled a part of your AOE damage into the chosen target. Kinda like a semi-sub rogue. So you'd still did 100% damage no matter if you used it or not. Example in a 5 target scenario:

Without using HM: The damage is equally divided between targets. 5000 dps overall.
Target 1: 1000 dps
Target 2: 1000 dps
Target 3: 1000 dps
Target 4: 1000 dps
Target 5: 1000 dps

With HM: 20% of the dps on each target is funneled into the chosen target with HM. Still 5000 dps overall.
Target 1 (with HM): 2000 dps
Target 2: 750 dps
Target 3: 750 dps
Target 4: 750 dps
Target 5: 750 dps

This way you would do 5000 dps in both scenarios. HM would simply change the distribution of the dps. Without HM it would be equally divided between the targets whereas with HM the marked target would get an extra 250 dps from each other target funneled into it. This would be extremely useful for mob control in bolstering scenarios etc. You could also use it to funnel extra damage into a raid boss if it's an encounter with adds. Of course it should not end up as a "sub rogue on zul"-scenario but that is just a tuning issue.


The example above is very simplified and the numbers are purely for illustration.