Toxic M+ Leavers

[Smallfruitbat]

Had a few days in the pug world this week. I usually avoid it like the plague. All in all, things went pretty well until...

Monday: Kings Rest: -Monk tank no active mitigation. We get to the first boss and it slaps him about the room, and pretty much one-shots him. We wipe, run back and then he pulls before the healer is in the room. Healer says, I haven't got time for this and leaves.

Thursday: Underrot 14: Mage arrives with his armour half repaired. He throws a tantrum after we wipe and demands the chance to repair (I'm riding a repair mount). He blames the tank for pulling before he's repaired. Tank leaves.

Thursday: Shrine of the Storms 11: Blood DK tank, no idea of the route and how to get count. Dumps second obelisk on top (literally on top) of the mini boss before second boss, ignores mechanics. Blames DPS. The healer who's key it is can't keep him up -his gear is red. He leaves.

Pretty much every leaver I have seen has left for what I can see is a valid reason -mainly because the tank in two of the instances doesn't know his role/class. At what point do you say its acceptable to leave a group that is going to take all week to finish the key? I know there are people out there who rage quit or do it on purpose but surely not wanting to carry someone who has somehow managed to get a key above their ability isn't wrong.

[Alroxas]

Honestly, i just think that if keys didn't downgrade, these problems would go away.

Instead you get new problems like the degenerate gameplay when you realized you've made a mistake (no matter how major or minor) and decide to reset again for the nth time.

- - - Updated - - -

Put a debuff on leavers stop them spreading their toxic behaviour. Give them a 24hr debuff that shows they abandoned a key previously but not stop them joining more runs.

Lol... Ok so what do you do when toxic player aggressively pulls every fucking mob in the dungeon (and is not the tank). They don't leave the group so they don't get the debuff, but they literally hold the other 4 players hostage because of their toxic behavior.

Or how about the tank that goes AFK-but-not-really-afk? He/She just stands over by the entrance but doesn't advance forward in the dungeon (nor do the leave because of the debuff). Just stands over there, occasionally moving to prevent AFK timer from kicking in but doesn't do their job?

So do you abandon the key and get the debuff because of their toxic behavior?

Alternatively, let's flip the scenario: You join a key that advertised: we're going to be pushing for X key. Turns out, they are carrying two guild mates with ZERO experience and horribly under geared. Like fresh 120s with ilv 380 trying to push a +15 key with ZERO experience. How long do you stick around in that group before you decide, I'm going to take the debuff and GTFO of that group? Should you even get a debuff in this case of false advertising?

[Sluvs]

As a tank, I saw a Waycrest Manor fail because they did not understand basic mechanics.

They did not know that I cannot hold aggroo on all three witches.

They complained about purifying the stack on the tree boss.

They did not know how to handle contagion.

They did not burn the bodies.

It was a +8.

We made it in time, somehow. But man, I have seen some nasty quits.

We wiped twice, I mean, the DPS wiped twice, me and the healer were fine, they were dieing to envinromental damage. One of the claimed that it was my fault, and one of them left. We were fine on time too.

[Alroxas]

Had a few days in the pug world this week. I usually avoid it like the plague. All in all, things went pretty well until..

To be fair to anyone who has pug'd M+, we all have bad runs every now and then. But honestly, some of this could be mitigated by checking before the run starts.

Yeah, yeah, M+ PuG players should be ready to go but it takes only a few seconds to let addons tell you, hey this person isn't repaired or doesn't have XYZ buff (and provides said buff).

Also what I recommend is establishing a social understanding of expectations and goals before the start of the run. Are we here to push a key? Or just complete for weekly? What's our tolerance for mistakes? Is there a pre-planned route, if so, share the MDT string? Where should we plan on Hero/TW?

This way as soon as you find something you disagree on, you can leave prior to using the key and find another group. Better for you and better for the group as a whole.

And this doesn't take long either, maybe a minute or so? Easily something you can type out in party chat as you're making your way to the dungeon.

[Sirinial]

It is not toxic at all to leave a Mythic+ It is a waste of my time and your time if the group is incapable of doing simple mechanics. I won't ever force myself to finish someones key that isn't putting forth the same effort. People that think leaving a key is toxic are the ones that want to be carried. I have a holy paladin that I strictly pugged with in M+ im up to a 2k score and have probably left around 20 Mythic+ groups. My time is precious only to me not to other people and if it is being wasted i will leave.

[Smallfruitbat]

To be fair to anyone who has pug'd M+, we all have bad runs every now and then. But honestly, some of this could be mitigated by checking before the run starts.

Yeah, yeah, M+ PuG players should be ready to go but it takes only a few seconds to let addons tell you, hey this person isn't repaired or doesn't have XYZ buff (and provides said buff).

Also what I recommend is establishing a social understanding of expectations and goals before the start of the run. Are we here to push a key? Or just complete for weekly? What's our tolerance for mistakes? Is there a pre-planned route, if so, share the MDT string? Where should we plan on Hero/TW?

This way as soon as you find something you disagree on, you can leave prior to using the key and find another group. Better for you and better for the group as a whole.

And this doesn't take long either, maybe a minute or so? Easily something you can type out in party chat as you're making your way to the dungeon.

With the exception of the mage in my groups, I didn't find anyone toxic and that was the point I was making. In two of the three runs that went badly there were what I consider to be valid reasons for people leaving. Unfortunately in those instances, the tanks were the weakest link, and probably shouldn't have made it into the group. Should you debuff the other players who didn't have time to carry them? No, in my opinion. You will never stop players from punching above their weight and in some instances, they can get away with it and maybe learn from it.

Pugging keys at random is not ideal, and there are ways to mitigate potential problems but personally I don't want Blizzard going in heavy handed. Not everyone who leaves a group is toxic -it might be bad mannered not to say 'sorry guys this isn't going to work' before quitting but it's not toxic.

[Swnem]

Instead you get new problems like the degenerate gameplay when you realized you've made a mistake (no matter how major or minor) and decide to reset again for the nth time.

Is that really a problem? I don't understand why that is an issue. If people want to try to push, let them push. There will be a limit to how far they can go regardless.

[mrhUK]

It's mostly tanks from my experience, so many of them have a superiority complex because they're in high demand and can get into groups instantly, so if you dare disagree with them or do something they don't like they just leave like a petulant child. They should add a system where you can vote to abandon the key, if the majority wants to quit then fine, but if you just leave and screw everyone else over you should get a CD on joining further dungeons.

[deenman]

Gonna defend OP here. Nothing in that post implied he was toxic. You're simply a naive pleb if you think the game is devoid of toxic trolls. Hell, I have a friend who used to join M+ and leave immediately just to make them pop the key for no reason.

some years ago there was a youtube channel about this dude just going around joining groups just to mess with people,pulling mobs,ninja looting,messing with the que so people couldnt even get in,he even got banned a few times and still came back lol

[iddqd]

How about this compromise:
Keys never downgrade but you need to finish in time to make it count for the weekly chest

That is one decision that is definately needed to make M+ serious. This is so utter bullshit that you get full reward for being 2h in a dungeon. Base reward on highest key in time, there is 0 reason for the system as it is now. You are a raider and dont want to play M+ seriously? Then dont! I dont want to raid, but i'd love to have the loot - well, my bad!

[Bloodyleech]

How about this compromise:
Keys never downgrade but you need to finish in time to make it count for the weekly chest

There has to be a way to downgrade keys tho. Otherwise you simply can't farm 15s with a fixed premade.

[Wuusah]

There has to be a way to downgrade keys tho. Otherwise you simply can't farm 15s with a fixed premade.

If you’re not good enough to finish a 15 in time, you’ll run into the problem of not getting your weekly item and will be forced to downgrade your key to get something out of it.

But yes, I agree it’s a bad way to do it

[Bloodyleech]

If you’re not good enough to finish a 15 in time, you’ll run into the problem of not getting your weekly item and will be forced to downgrade your key to get something out of it.

But yes, I agree it’s a bad way to do it

I get your idea. But farming 15s is obviously for people that have no problem with this. Your idea would negate the ability to farm fixed keys.
I'd be fine with people getting gear one key lower than finished if it wasn't timed. A non-timed 15 would count as 14.

[ID811717]

That is one decision that is definately needed to make M+ serious. This is so utter bullshit that you get full reward for being 2h in a dungeon. Base reward on highest key in time, there is 0 reason for the system as it is now. You are a raider and dont want to play M+ seriously? Then dont! I dont want to raid, but i'd love to have the loot - well, my bad!

It sounds like you want to adapt this change in spite of people who are deemed to be not worthy of something, rather than to improve your own gameplay. That alone makes it a questionable suggestion.

[Lucetia]

HThursday: Shrine of the Storms 11: Blood DK tank, no idea of the route and how to get count. Dumps second obelisk on top (literally on top) of the mini boss before second boss, ignores mechanics. Blames DPS. The healer who's key it is can't keep him up -his gear is red. He leaves.

Do you mini boss as in the elemental or miniboss as in the 3rd obelisk there? If it's the 3rd obelisk then that is pretty common strat and one recommened on IO. Though I tend to drop near the bridge so that way you can pull the two pack and deal with less bolstering on the one add and preventing pulling all the mini adds that make a mob a boss.

Though when running my hunter alt I have seen 95% of the tanks take an obelisk and tank it right there, if it's spider and the other 3 are pretty close with small kiting to avoid ground stuff. Then they take every path imaginable to get the to boss and hitting like 110%+ on the meter.

There has to be a way to downgrade keys tho. Otherwise you simply can't farm 15s with a fixed premade.

You can downgrade keys on your own though.

[Cyz]

I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.

Some guy in my +15 made us wipe on the mechanical cat boss in mechagon twice because he didn’t know mechanics. I left my own key because of a guy can’t do that boss, he probably will suck later on too... and it’s a waste of time.

Get raider IO, level up your score and vet people you invite on the same or higher level than you. And this solves 80% of get good or gear issues, and consequently toxic leavers because no one is being carried. If you cry about raider IO, then you’re asking to be carried rather than progress the community made metric for progress for M+, which frankly works amazingly well if you want to prejudge how a person is going to perform.

[ID811717]

I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.

Actually, it used to be the case in early Legion. Non-timed keys gained the "depleted" status, instead of being lowered. People could run a key repeatedly until they managed to time it, but such key no longer granted loot... So no one wanted to join your pug to help with a depleted key.

But there was also a good competitive side to it. The top players used that to practice the same key many times until they learned to time it. That is how the Thorlefulz/Tarkam/Soapie/Нурдин/Meowchan timed world first Court of Stars +26 key in April 2017 (which was an insanely high key at the time; I believe they spent a big portion of the week repeatedly practicing that one key and only timed it 50 minutes before weekly reset... basically requiring a perfect run). Later, Meowchan was a big advocate for bringing back the "depleted" key option to the game, but the community did not listen to that. An option to deplete a key instead of rerolling the key would indeed benefit high end groups, removing a lot of randomness... But I can see why Blizzard does not want to bring it back, because the current system is much better at enforcing the addictive gambling/time-sink elements, where you have one attempt at a key at a time, and then might spend a long time till you get another shot.

P.S. Meowchan was suggesting some nice implementation ideas, such as: when you fail a key timer, your key remains in your bags for the same level of the same dungeon, but gains the "depleted" status (and no longer grants loot) just as it happened at the start of Legion. If you are a high-end premade group, you can choose to run the same key repeatedly to learn it until you time it (then it would reroll into a higher key). If you are pugging, you would have an option to click on a key to lower and reroll it, removing the "depleted" status (so then this would work in exactly the same way as it does right not). This simple system would make both hardcore and casual key players happy. In fact, it might even make the "I hate timers, just give me the challenge" players happy -- because repeatedly running a hard "depleted" key sounds very similar to what they desire.

[Bloodyleech]

You can downgrade keys on your own though.

This wasn't part of his suggestion, that's why I said this.

[Wuusah]

This wasn't part of his suggestion, that's why I said this.

Actually it was. I replied to a suggestion where keys don't downgrade and you can manually downgrade if you choose to do so. My idea was simply a way to give people a reason to downgrade.

[Bloodyleech]

I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.

Some guy in my +15 made us wipe on the mechanical cat boss in mechagon twice because he didn’t know mechanics. I left my own key because of a guy can’t do that boss, he probably will suck later on too... and it’s a waste of time.

Get raider IO, level up your score and vet people you invite on the same or higher level than you. And this solves 80% of get good or gear issues, and consequently toxic leavers because no one is being carried. If you cry about raider IO, then you’re asking to be carried rather than progress the community made metric for progress for M+, which frankly works amazingly well if you want to prejudge how a person is going to perform.

#1 exactly. There is a reason for the downgrade-system.
#2 good point. If everyone would play on point in the first place, there would be no reason to be toxic or leave at all. No one, except special people, leaves a dungeon without a reason.

Another thing is: +15s give you the highest gear possible via mythic+, we still got people in this forum that think that you can just look at ilvl and it's gg. Good luck going for 20s with people that got no 15+ exp but 470 gear. This mindset is literally made for toxicity and leaving people.