1. #14061
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    At least you acknowledge both sides, and also I'm in agreement. *I* would never open carry a gun because I'm well aware of the aura it gives off. That doesn't mean it's against the law, and I'm fine with people doing it. It doesn't bother me. I know guns, I know people. I trust myself more than anything else as far as those two are concerned. If I'm nervous, I'll bounce. You'd also find that, while I used it as an example, I'd also never go walking through a ghetto with money bags. However, everyone that plays stupid games and finds themselves winning stupid prizes; it is what it is. The law is what it is. If the kid is found guilty? Hell yeah. All for it. I simply don't see it (as far as murder) though. Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong. We're a land of laws first. I speed nearly constantly. 10-20 over everywhere whenever traffic allows. However, you'd never find me bemoaning a ticket.
    I'm rather ignorant about American law. As to the underlined part, I agree completely - both the AR kid and those running after him and trying to wrestle it from him played stupid games and won stupid prizes. Personally I don't think the kid intended to murder anyone either. Personally I think he panicked when he got tackled. Granted, that doesn't make him any less of an imbecile in my eyes.
    As to the speeding part I'd advise against it, rules aren't automatically rational but sometimes they are and I'd rather follow them. Granted, I'm European and I don't have immense deserts with zero traffic and completely straight highways. I remember driving to Las Vegas from the Death Valley, god was I bored. Cruise control is what prevented me from shooting myself in the head. But again I digress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  2. #14062
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Who did Rittenhouse shoot at before Rosenbaum chased him down the street?
    He pointed his gun at a black guy going to his car. That is assault with a deadly weapon, a felony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Under current Wisconsin laws? No. As lawyers have already commented on.
    Almost every real lawyer, is against you on this, including the prosecutor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Under current Wisconsin laws? No. As lawyers have already commented on.
    Almost every real lawyer, is against you on this, including the prosecutor.

  3. #14063
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    When he is committing a crime by pointing a gun at someone, which is assault with a deadly weapon, that voids the self defense claim, because then Rittenhouse became the aggressor in that scenario.

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    They didn't care. He wasn't a white guy that murdered 2 people and maimed a 3rd, in a white nationalist militia.
    Like I've said in the distant past of this thread: I'm all for him being re-branded as the perpetrator and aggressor if this is ever deemed anything other than hearsay. I haven't been in this thread for a while, but is there any actual hard evidence that ever came to light to prove this?

  4. #14064
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Like I've said in the distant past of this thread: I'm all for him being re-branded as the perpetrator and aggressor if this is ever deemed anything other than hearsay. I haven't been in this thread for a while, but is there any actual hard evidence that ever came to light to prove this?
    Charging documents and eye witnesses that have come forward? Was some of my first few posts in this thread, where I directly gave evidence that there was a witness/victim that was going to his car, and Rittenhouse pointed his gun at this black guy that was walking to his car, not long before Rittenhouse murdered Rosenbaum.

  5. #14065
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Charging documents and eye witnesses that have come forward?
    Right. I said hard evidence. Testimony is not that. Now, if the court chooses to believe it, more power to them. That's their prerogative and their duty.

  6. #14066
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Not it doesn't. As it was an entirely different situation and different circumstances. And again, you are ignoring Eye Witness testimony.
    Right. Every situation needs to be evaluated by its own circumstances. In that specific situation he mentioned, he was sprayed with pepper spray and didn't respond with lethal force.

    It shows that he can respond without it.

  7. #14067
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I'm rather ignorant about American law. As to the underlined part, I agree completely - both the AR kid and those running after him and trying to wrestle it from him played stupid games and won stupid prizes. Personally I don't think the kid intended to murder anyone either. Personally I think he panicked when he got tackled. Granted, that doesn't make him any less of an imbecile in my eyes.
    As to the speeding part I'd advise against it, rules aren't automatically rational but sometimes they are and I'd rather follow them. Granted, I'm European and I don't have immense deserts with zero traffic and completely straight highways. I remember driving to Las Vegas from the Death Valley, god was I bored. Cruise control is what prevented me from shooting myself in the head. But again I digress.
    He wasn't tackled or even touched nor was his weapon touched when he shot and killed Rosenbaum. He wasn't even tackled before he shot the 2nd and 3rd victims.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  8. #14068
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    As a 5'7'' * 110 lbs person, I can assure you that guns are needed. How am I supposed to protect myself against not a giant but just even an average guy without being a ninjutsu/krav maga master? Aside from that, guns are tools. Kind of like knives - you're British, you should be familiar with the subject. It all boils down on how people use them. Defense is but one thing you can do with them. Then there's hunting (which I personally despise, but I digress), sporting (many shooting sports are Olympic sports, many people seem to forget that), collecting, plinking... many things. More than I do with knives, for sure - I only use knives to eat.
    I'm not American by the way. Many seem to assume that guns are only common in America, but that's simply not true - to be sure, Europe doesn't have nearly as many, but those who think there's no gun culture in Europe should probably remember that Europe's history with guns predates the birth of the USA by centuries, and it's not history that died down. Beretta was founded in 1526, for instance. To this day, it's one of the world's prominent gun manufacturers. Boggles the mind, eh?
    Maybe I'm lucky but I live in an extremely multicultural part of time, where there's the occasional bit of stupidity. But I've never ever needed a gun or knife to keep myself safe. I'm 5'10, 200lbs of skinny fat (I used to be fit in a previous life). Guns are tools, sure. But in America the culture for a specific section of people seems to be in line with that Machine Head song 'Davidian'. 'Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast'. It's like some point to prove. 'Look, I have a gun so I'm free'. In before, 'look I have a gun, I shot someone and now I'm doing 25 in prison'. Weird as balls.

  9. #14069
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Right. I said hard evidence. Testimony is not that. Now, if the court chooses to believe it, more power to them. That's their prerogative and their duty.
    Testimony is evidence.

  10. #14070
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Guns are a fun toy and also an equation equalizer. Don't need to be as strong or fit as someone when a gun is involved. Ergo, someone wants to do the worst thing they possibly can IMO, and start shit with physical violence? Sure. Show me how big and badass you are against 3200fps.

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    Biden. Trump is the absolute worst president in the history of the nation and is nearly literally hitler. I will vote however necessary to get the highest likelihood of him getting out of office.
    1. Yeah, it's fucked up. I will never be on board with it.

    2. Brother, then you're not the kinda person I was referring to. I was talking about the people blindly defending Rittenhouse through 'legal expertise'.

    Thank you for the balanced conversation regardless.

  11. #14071
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Right. I said hard evidence. Testimony is not that. Now, if the court chooses to believe it, more power to them. That's their prerogative and their duty.
    If you are asking for video, there isn't any that I know of because there wasn't any rolling before Rosenbaum was murdered. But Testimony, got the charges added to Rittenhouse thanks to the Daily Caller "reporter" being a witness and saying that Rittenhouse wasn't controlling his weapon properly, AKA pointing his gun at people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Right. Every situation needs to be evaluated by its own circumstances. In that specific situation he mentioned, he was sprayed with pepper spray and didn't respond with lethal force.

    It shows that he can respond without it.
    And it still doesn't help him. Because eye witness testimony shows Rittenhouse as the aggressor in the Rosenbaum murder and then subsequent murder/maiming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Testimony is evidence.
    Which is why the "probable cause" section of Rittenhouse's charging documents, McGinnis, the Daily Caller "reporter", was used as a reason to add more charges to Rittenhouse, on top of the 1st degree murder charge.

  12. #14072
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    If you are asking for video, there isn't any that I know of because there wasn't any rolling before Rosenbaum was murdered. But Testimony, got the charges added to Rittenhouse thanks to the Daily Caller "reporter" being a witness and saying that Rittenhouse wasn't controlling his weapon properly, AKA pointing his gun at people.
    That's fair. I just wanted to be sure I didn't miss something else that came out. I've acknowledged the line of him being the aggressor before, and stated *if* it's true, he loses all grounds to stand on. I'll let the court decide if it's true since there is absolutely no way I can do that myself and I'm not going to just blindly believe someone saying it is.

  13. #14073
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    That's fair. I just wanted to be sure I didn't miss something else that came out. I've acknowledged the line of him being the aggressor before, and stated *if* it's true, he loses all grounds to stand on. I'll let the court decide if it's true since there is absolutely no way I can do that myself and I'm not going to just blindly believe someone saying it is.
    If it was just 1 person, you might have an argument, but there is 2, and might be a 3rd person if Rosenbaum saw this and was a witness, he could be trying to disarm Rittenhouse after seeing him point his gun at this black guy.

  14. #14074
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Who am I calling a victim? Rittenhouse? That's not right... I'm not doing that.
    If he wasn't a victim there wouldn't be a reason to "defend" himself would there.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  15. #14075
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    No, that's not my argument, literally at all. So clearly you can't actually understand anything I've said.

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    I think with the case details, even for a minimum of 15 years, he will opt to try his luck at court.
    Which would be horrible legal advice due to the sheer number of eye witness and earshot accounts that would come out during discovery. He needs to take the deal and spend 25 years regretting not to go full conservative.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  16. #14076
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    He wasn't tackled or even touched nor was his weapon touched when he shot and killed Rosenbaum. He wasn't even tackled before he shot the 2nd and 3rd victims.
    He was chased, he fell, some guy was on him, and this happened after a "get him" was yelled, along with other things I'm unable to hear/discern but were likely on the same wavelength. So by lex parsimoniae he panicked when he fell and opened fire because of that. Had he intended to go on a shooting spree he would've done so before getting chased, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Maybe I'm lucky but I live in an extremely multicultural part of time, where there's the occasional bit of stupidity. But I've never ever needed a gun or knife to keep myself safe. I'm 5'10, 200lbs of skinny fat (I used to be fit in a previous life). Guns are tools, sure. But in America the culture for a specific section of people seems to be in line with that Machine Head song 'Davidian'. 'Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast'. It's like some point to prove. 'Look, I have a gun so I'm free'. In before, 'look I have a gun, I shot someone and now I'm doing 25 in prison'. Weird as balls.
    I don't understand the "I have a gun so I'm free" line of thought either. I own guns because I've always been a gun enthusiast - as in a collector of pieces of historical significance, both antique and modern, and I'm fascinated by them as marvels of engineering rather than deadly weapons; I'm also a competitive shooter and an instructor - and I was like that before I needed them for protection more so than most people because of my job (but anyone doesn't feel the need to defend himself till he actually does, it's the all-permeating "it won't happen to me" fallacy). That doesn't mean I don't appreciate their role as equalizers and implements of protection as well, especially being as tiny as I am, being in a certain spotlight as I am, and doing the job that I do (I won't doxx myself further, suffice to say it's one of those few jobs that enables a European to obtain a CCW, which contrary to a sporting or hunting license is indeed a very rare thing in Europe).

    P.s. living in a multicultural context has nothing to do with it. I've never had to pull my gun in my utterly monocultural hometown, whereas I was forced to do it here, where "here" means one of the most multicultural contexts in Europe.
    Last edited by Coolthulhu; 2020-09-08 at 09:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  17. #14077
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    And it still doesn't help him. Because eye witness testimony shows Rittenhouse as the aggressor in the Rosenbaum murder and then subsequent murder/maiming.
    The McGinnis testimony states that Rosenbaum "engaged" Rittenhouse first. Rittenhouse fled. Rosenbaum pursued. Per testimony, in the charging document. I don't think you know what the word aggressor means. Nowhere in the charging document does it state that Rittenhouse pointed a gun at anyone prior to Rosenbaum. Just the vague "handling the gun improperly". Which again, only matters if Rosenbaum himself saw it.

    It's not cut and dry either way. It's a garbage situation that is going keep happening as long as gun laws are the way they are. He may be found guilty, he may walk. If I was to bet now though, based on what has been released, I'd wager on walk.

  18. #14078
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    He was chased, he fell, some guy was on him, and this happened after a "get him" was yelled, along with other things I'm unable to hear/discern but were likely on the same wavelength. So by lex parsimoniae he panicked when he fell and opened fire because of that. Had he intended to go on a shooting spree he would've done so before getting chased, don't you think?
    1. What does that have to do with anything i said? He wasn't tackled or touched and neither was his gun before he shot Rosenbaum and he wasn't tackled before he shot the other two people. Those are facts you didn't get right earlier so i corrected you.

    2. Who said he was a there for a shooting spree? I didn't. He was however, there to put himself in harm's way.....by his own words.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  19. #14079
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Which would be horrible legal advice due to the sheer number of eye witness and earshot accounts that would come out during discovery. He needs to take the deal and spend 25 years regretting not to go full conservative.
    Discovery can go both ways though. Most of what has been released so far has been framed from the perspective of the prosecutor. There are already videos of Rosenbaum trying to instigate with other people, as well as calling for people to "jack them and take their guns". As I said, more evidence needs to be seen.

  20. #14080
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Doesn't first degree imply premeditation or something?
    All "premeditation" means is that you expected that you might have to/get to kill someone. You don't need a specific victim in mind, or a concrete plan.

    If you stick a gun in your pocket when going to confront your wife's lover, and end up shooting him, for instance, that demonstrates premeditation. As opposed to not doing so, and getting so angry you just grab something close at hand and smash his head in. That'd be second-degree murder.

    If I'm the prosecutor I'm looking for a deal here, you just need one guy on that jury who's a law and order conservative and it's a mistrial, which is career ending for any prosecutor with political aspirations.
    You realize there's multiple charges, right?


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