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  1. #341
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Its extremely likely, but so what? we've done this same song and dance with every single system blizzard has ever implemented. The people who care enough will switch to whatever the new FotM covenant is and life will go on.
    This is basically my take on this whole typical pre-launch faux-outrage.

  2. #342
    They almost certainly will. Even class/spec balance changes can ultimately affect Covenant choices with the way that Soulbinds are currently designed, and scaling will almost certainly change things as well. Baseline spec power even changes with scaling. To assume that Covenants won't be tweaked, or that even classes won't receive balance adjustments that will also affect Covenant balance, is absolutely delusional. That's why this whole system is just a mind-boggling bad idea, and I have no idea how Blizzard just doesn't seem to see that.

    This is eventually going to play out similarly to Legion, and the legendary and artifact systems. Blizzard swore up and down that they wouldn't make any adjustments post-launch so that players could safely make their choice and investments - low and behold, Blizzard made changes to exactly those things a few weeks into the expansion. Covenants will be much the same, it's just a matter of when Blizzard decides to pull their heads out of their asses.

    Everything that the Covenants provide from a power perspective should just be unrestricted, free choices. And they absolutely shouldn't be on weekly lockouts every time you want to make an adjustment - because, yeah, that's totally a good idea for Soulbinds. Totally.

  3. #343
    I wouldn't have much of a problem with the restrictions if they wouldn't touch the spells. But knowing blizzard, they'll nerf my 'meaningful choice' after people complain, because it is the most optimal for X spec and X spec is the most optimal choice for X class.

    Flashbacks to Legion where I hoarded AP because it seemed like they'll nerf fire mages (my meaningful choice) and was prepared to switch to Frost, but then they announced that they'll not be nerfing fire cause so many mages play fire. So naturally I dumped my AP into the fire artifact weapon.
    Spoiler alert: They nerfed it a week after.

    I'd like to make a choice based on the data presented to me, and since I care about my performance first and how the covenant looks second. I'll go with whatever gives me more damage. But I'm afraid that I'll have to change based on Blizzard's mood.

  4. #344
    The solution was very simple and only requiered a bit of art team work. They should have made the active ability like talents but the aesthetic changes with your covenant.
    Like bonespike for rogues. The bone you shoot has a unique animation, but the color could be changed. Bonelords is green, Venthyr red, Nightfae blue and Kyrians white.
    All that is needed is like a little cd to change the active ability, like lets say 1 hour or even a day. You can play what you like but you can't reskill every boss fight but you are able to raid at the start of the id, do some m+ next day and play pvp on the weekend with the optimal covenant ability. The additional covenant skill should be bound to the covenant.

    Why hate each other and deny the others stuff, when we could have best of both sides? I know it is just wishful thinking and now get back to hate each other.
    See the changes in 9.1 and if all else fails it will be 9.3 for sure.
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  5. #345
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    I'm hoping they will opt to buff (carefully) the underperforming ones instead of taking the nerfbat to the OP ones... But that's not likely to happen.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  6. #346
    5 of 5 jailers of chance

  7. #347
    Is this a rhetorical question? Of course they are going nerf them and then buff them and then nerf them again. We're in for a roller-coaster of balancing incompetence.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    If - like overwhelming majority - play up to Heroic Raid/M+15/PVP below high rating, just pick abilities/fantasy/transmog package that you like the most.

    If you're min-maxers or play cutting edge difficulty, you will switch covenant after nerf and regrind Renown, like you grind every expansion.
    or do what I do, just play two of the same character for split raids and 2x covenants if need be

  9. #349
    Covenant should be permanent like race and gender used to be.

  10. #350
    Dreadlord Kyux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    My doubts towards the system are threefold

    1. By adding player power to the covenants, a person who cares about player power no longer has any meaningful choice to make. The choice is made for me. I would have liked to research the story and lore of the covenants, compared transmog on my different characters and picked based on the covenant I like the most. But I will have to pick whichever covenant performs best. At the end of the day though, I can live with it because it's performance that matters and aesthetic is just a fun bonus.

    2. The people who pick their covenant based on aesthetic will never have their choice forcefully made wrong. They won't wake up one day to their transmogs changed, the characters in the covenants removed, the look and feel suddenly turned into something else. The parameters by which they make their choice day 1 will never shift. Mine will. I will wake up one day, every week, every month, who knows how many times, and the choice I made will have been turned into the wrong choice by forces outside of my own control. How much impact this will have is directly related to how difficult Blizz will make it for me to swap back and forth endlessly, so this might never be a big problem.

    3. The right choice for my main spec or is not the right choice for my other specs. I will main a holy paladin, and for me, Kyrian so far outperforms all other covenants by quite a bit. But I also enjoy playing ret in dungeons. For ret, the best choice is night fae. Sure I will be able to perform in dungeons with a suboptimal covenant on my ret spec, but it's still annoying.
    On (1): your premise is that the choice is made for you if you care about player power. That's absolutely correct... because you have chosen to care about player power. Let's rephrase what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    By adding transmog to the covenants, a person who cares about transmog no longer has any meaningful choice to make. The choice is made for me.
    See how that works?

    On (2): that's fair. It will definitely suck if numbers are changed on you once you've made a choice and the rug is pulled out from under you. But isn't that the case if your class is nerfed? Or if professions are gutted from expansion to expansion? That's the hazard in making any significant choice. The response is for Blizzard to be consistent. But a balance must be struct between not changing numbers, and trying to achieve balance (in the other sense).

    On (3): you are not entitled to be all things at all times. That's never been the case and never should be. That was the case until spec-swapping came along, it was the case with Legion artifacts, it is the case with Azerite armour not swapping with spec changes, and also - gear itself. An off spec is just that - an alternative spec. It's like gear - if I want to play resto now I need to farm out some resto gear. I'm not entitled to equal ilvl resto gear just because I've gained that in guardian gear. I'm not entitled to the BiS resto covenant ability just because I've picked the best one for guardian. That should never be the case.

    The whole anti-covenant argument is moving dangerously close to seeking all players to be all things at all times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akhlys View Post
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  11. #351
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    On (1): your premise is that the choice is made for you if you care about player power. That's absolutely correct... because you have chosen to care about player power. Let's rephrase what you said:



    See how that works?

    On (2): that's fair. It will definitely suck if numbers are changed on you once you've made a choice and the rug is pulled out from under you. But isn't that the case if your class is nerfed? Or if professions are gutted from expansion to expansion? That's the hazard in making any significant choice. The response is for Blizzard to be consistent. But a balance must be struct between not changing numbers, and trying to achieve balance (in the other sense).

    On (3): you are not entitled to be all things at all times. That's never been the case and never should be. That was the case until spec-swapping came along, it was the case with Legion artifacts, it is the case with Azerite armour not swapping with spec changes, and also - gear itself. An off spec is just that - an alternative spec. It's like gear - if I want to play resto now I need to farm out some resto gear. I'm not entitled to equal ilvl resto gear just because I've gained that in guardian gear. I'm not entitled to the BiS resto covenant ability just because I've picked the best one for guardian. That should never be the case.

    The whole anti-covenant argument is moving dangerously close to seeking all players to be all things at all times.
    Look I am still undecided about this whole covenant thing, but this will affect more people then you think. If we lived in a perfect world then maybe yes what you said will be valid (and I agree we make choices already by playing certain classes or specs that can be nerfed etc), but you seem to be forgetting that the wow community is a toxic one. It will definitely make it harder for people to find pug groups for content. Not only that, but blizzard is really bad at balancing things, but now they add layers on top to have to balance as well. It is a whole mess currently. I am not throwing a temper tantrum, I am just stating that blizzard needs to really think things through thoroughly before they go live with this.

    There is still some time before it releases and they can still make changes and balance isnt close to being done, so it might just look allot better before SL goes live and all this arguing will just have been pointless, but with the track record of blizzard it seems unlikely.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Because you claimed "no one" is playing a covenant because they like it.

    Are you really struggling to read your own claims?

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is easy to look at the class breakdown in raids and m+ to determine your wild claims here are false. If they were true, people wouldn't be playing non-fotm classes and specs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    In a world where people get attacked or killed for supporting the "wrong" sports team in some neighborhoods... This is surely the hottest of takes.

    Maybe in SL they should have Tyrande just decide to join the Horde. It makes no sense for anyone to be mad.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We should be able to press a button to change class whenever we want. After all, Blizzard can just nerf your class choice after you level the character.
    Changing classes and changing covenant abilities are not the same thing. If the covenants were as expansive as classes then I would be fine with the whole thing. But they are not. Covenants are basically about a couple of abilities and transmog. There is no greater RP element to them. If you think there is then it’s because you haven’t played the beta. Changing your covenant CANNOT be compared to changing between e.g. a Rogue and a Mage. If you think it can it just showcases your own ignorance. People who compare covenant choice to class choice have been wildly misled by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Its extremely likely, but so what? we've done this same song and dance with every single system blizzard has ever implemented. The people who care enough will switch to whatever the new FotM covenant is and life will go on.

    That last statement is also stupid. Do you not consider your class a meaningful choice simply becasue blizzard could change some numbers at any given time?
    Class choice and covenant choice is not thr same thing. Covenant choice is more similar to talent choice but with some transmog tied to it. We have never in the history of WoW been locked into a few talents in the same way.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Not if you picked the covenant for another reason other than min max... If you picked it for mogs, lore, theme, rp etc etc. Then the value remains. And many who pick then for rp reasons are actually for the lock and how it enhances it.

    It's all just a clash between min maxers who want to be able to be best at all times and people who wants to have a sense of identity.
    There is no clash. The rpg crowd dont lose anything if covenant or their talents/abilities were switchable at will. But the min max crowd do lose they performance.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    On (1): your premise is that the choice is made for you if you care about player power. That's absolutely correct... because you have chosen to care about player power.
    Of course that's the case, but I would still argue that the choice of covenant is rendered meaningless. Like I said, I can live with it being meaningless, but it is. And no, I don't think you can make the same argument for people who pick based on transmog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    On (2): that's fair. It will definitely suck if numbers are changed on you once you've made a choice and the rug is pulled out from under you. But isn't that the case if your class is nerfed? Or if professions are gutted from expansion to expansion? That's the hazard in making any significant choice. The response is for Blizzard to be consistent. But a balance must be struct between not changing numbers, and trying to achieve balance (in the other sense).
    Not quite, because a class is so much more than their throughput. On the level I play, damage and HPS meters don't matter in the same way the do to others. Rshaman has been consistently underperforming in numbers throughout several tiers and yet my spot remains because of the utility. The covenant abilities provide no utility and their usefulness is strictly tied to the throughput.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    On (3): you are not entitled to be all things at all times. That's never been the case and never should be. That was the case until spec-swapping came along, it was the case with Legion artifacts, it is the case with Azerite armour not swapping with spec changes, and also - gear itself. An off spec is just that - an alternative spec. It's like gear - if I want to play resto now I need to farm out some resto gear. I'm not entitled to equal ilvl resto gear just because I've gained that in guardian gear. I'm not entitled to the BiS resto covenant ability just because I've picked the best one for guardian. That should never be the case.
    I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, I am criticizing the system. Classes that perform several roles are hurt by the core design of the covenants. A few weeks ago, Holy paladins were choosing between Night Fae and Kyrian. But NF was way too powerful for Ret, so Blizzard nerfed it. For Ret, the nerf was correct, but for Holy it stomped the entire covenant into the dirt. For shaman, Necrolord is great for elemental and was probably designed with elemental in mind, but it sucks for enhancement. Not because of numbers, but because of how the specs work and how the ability works. The whole core design is just flawed for these classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    I'm not entitled to the BiS resto covenant ability just because I've picked the best one for guardian. That should never be the case.
    Does that really work for the whole idea of returning to class identity though? I thought Blizzard wanted to move away from people locking themselves in to play only 1 spec.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    The whole anti-covenant argument is moving dangerously close to seeking all players to be all things at all times.
    I am not anti covenant. I like the idea as a whole, but I see obvious flaws and I hope Blizzard will manage to make sure it all works out fine in the end.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    I have read countless threads on this point. The problem people have with covenants is they believe the abilities will be unbalanced, forcing them to pick one covenant for a BiS ability at the expense of being able to choose one that they prefer for thematic reasons or otherwise. Similarly, they think it's bad that player power is stuck behind such a choice that you can't easily change. I think that's a fair summary? Happy for you to add to it (not being sarcastic here).

    My point is that while the abilities will not be perfectly balanced, the difference in ability power will be minimal in comparison with other factors, most importantly, player skill. Playing your class well will more than make up for not picking the BiS covenant. On being locked to a covenant: it's not a big deal because of my previous point and in any event the benefit to RPG, thematics, character identity, and story outweigh that negative. Additionally, conduits etc will smooth out any power imbalances.

    Bottom line is it's not that big of a deal for anyone, and for those for whom a small imbalance does matter (eg competitive mythic raiding etc), they always have and will min-max at the expense of story. I'm fine with that.

    What about my comment is "not true"? I said that you often pick one option at the expense of others in WoW such as classes and talents, and then I speculated on players playing better. One's a fact that's hard to dispute, one is personal speculation.
    Well, im not they guy you citated but here is goes.

    Even currently there are classes who dont really have any choice if they want perform well. Rogue have one choice. Druids also. Rest is not only significantly weaker in every possible scenario but often broken and bugged. Lock got 2 choices, depending strictly if they want to focus on raid dps or m+ dps.

    Example of really, really useless ability is for shaman to have instant cast chain lighting after casting chain heal and vice versa. Like, holy shit this is bad. And it is not number problem but flat out useless ability.

    And we are talking about blizzard, they NEVER were able to properly balance. NEVER. Thinking that somehow they can do it this time is naive at best.

  16. #356
    Obviously the covenant abilities aren't equally powerful or satisfying to use right now, even within one class.

    As a rogue, all I ask is that the one great choice (Bone Spike) not be nerfed into the ground without addressing the others. That might be asking a lot going by how Blizzard has handled these things in the past...
    Last edited by Delano; 2020-09-09 at 06:48 AM.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    So how likely is it that you will make your "meaningful choice" of choosing a covenant with a strong ability and then Blizzard will just nerf that ability 2 weeks later right before the raid is released?

    Is it really a "meaningful choice" if Blizzard can just change the baseline of your choice?
    impossible because i will make my choices based solely on visials of covenant and how it fits classes

    dont care about numbers . they will nerf/buff them through first 3 months anyway

    cant wait to see tryhards whining on forums every time nerfs/buffs happen - will be glorious

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    or do what I do, just play two of the same character for split raids and 2x covenants if need be
    You do you, but if I remember correctly even Max from Limit advised against it. Imo most likely people invested in their mains will have Renown maxed out and conduits/legendaries collected for all specs and covenants by the end of season 1. And it still will be less time investment than Legion 7.0-7.1 that wasn't hated by general public (or even other way around) despite legendary situation.

    Before I saw details about system, I planned to pick 4 characters and max out different covenant on each. But now I consider just switching my covenant every few months on my main, not only I will be able to complete all here, but also my gameplay will be slightly different each patch.

  19. #359
    I really hope not. If pugs end up only inviting players with certain covenant, it is going to be extremely bothersome for me.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    impossible because i will make my choices based solely on visials of covenant and how it fits classes

    dont care about numbers . they will nerf/buff them through first 3 months anyway

    cant wait to see tryhards whining on forums every time nerfs/buffs happen - will be glorious
    I’m glad for you. But why do you enjoy the unhappiness of other people?

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