[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Monster Hunter]

Dribbles will eat it up, but dribbles opinion is irrelevant since I don't believe he lives in Ireland or NI. And I wouldn't be so sure people there will see his point of view.

As UK law it matters because that means the UK courts can try to compel the government to honour the agreement. What happens when the PM ignores the UK courts? Well someone more versed in UK law and government would have to answer that.
As for the EU, there is a section on arbitration in the WA. If a party is believed to be in breach an arbitration court is set up which reviews the claim and can impose fines. Which the UK could once again ignore. At which point the other party can take proportional measures. I don't think a post no-deal Brexit UK would be very eager for trade sanctions.

Problem is the Conservatives have such a majority now in parliment they can repeal and replace anything they want when it comes to that agreement.

Laws are a funny one in the UK, there's laws that are seemingly above goverment reproach like the whole deceiving the monarch thing bojo got taken to court over last year and other laws that they can do what they want with. This is one of the latter.

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That's just playing with numbers to make you feel better about the result. The UK decided on a voting system, everyone had the same chance and Cameron blew it. That's the bottom line. He thought he could get away with it, because the "right answer" was obvious, and many people mistook it as an opportunity to shove it up some snobby arse from Westminster.

And then you have the trolls like Dribbles that latch onto anything funny enough to entertain them for a while, because fuck consequences. It's a bit of a perfect storm in terms of bad decision process, but you won't change anything by reiterating how low the supporting percentage was. Same way he's pretending 52% means all British, you can't go pretending 48% means the majority didn't want it. Children don't count, anyone who didn't vote doesn't count. The only meaningful number is the number of valid ballots handed in. Sorry.

Cameron is not the first nor will he be the last Southern fairy to find out the north is willing to cut of any body part if it means a chance to stick it to the southern cunts.

I mourned the loss of the EU they day Cameron announced he would let us vote on it, nothing else has been surprising to say the least.

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Let's not forget that Boris campaign promise was to have and make a "Brexit trade deal with the EU".

Going for a no-deal brexit will most likely see him and his party punished on a political level sooner rather than later.

Also a no-deal brexit would mean that the UK shows itself unreliable to follow international agreements and international signed documents, and several nations already condemned it (including the USA) as it would make clear the the current UK government isn't trustworthy enough to make any sort of long-lasting arrangements with.

2028 is probly the earliest we will see a change in gov.

The next GE is 2024 but Labour have lost so many seats it would actualy be a parliamentary record for them to win an election from this position.

The economic advisors at work are saying the gov will most likly be stable and the same untill the 2030s now, possibly with hug parliaments again by 2028 and 2032.

Then there's what I see in the street, might be different in big uni city's but round here in the back waters of the North the people seems to want no deal, that and the Labour Party is made of all the demographics they blame for them being poor so whilst that's there view I don't see the red wall rebuilding for a while.

Politically we are essentially in for another 80s like decade of only one party that's constantly getting protested but ultimately maintains a choak hold on power like under Thatcher, and bojo knows his only real political threats are from within the party.

I'm not endorsing it, but that's the state of play were In Right now.

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Not necessarily. The UK had the advantage of interacting with a good faith actor who is committed to a rule and norm based behavior.

If the EU actually chooses to it can unilaterally grant Northern Ireland a series of exemptions with the ultimate goal of promoting Irish unification while punishing the UK in the areas of services, import-export, intellectual property and simultaneously could write up a whole set of resolutions on how it could fast track the reintegration of an independent Scotland.

There are quite a few major EU players who have been advocating for a hard line stance against the UK, chiefly among them France, who mostly accepted the current milquetoast attitude towards the UK for the benefit of the EU members still under the illusion that the UK is a serious country.

But I think the Brits have disabused everyone of that foolish idea by now. It's clear that Boris wants a confrontation and will do whatever it takes to get it so they might as well give Boris one, while also constantly exulting "our British friends".

The problem with Irish reunification is the same now as it was when the desisions was made to split Ireland in the first place. The Republic ultimately does not want to have to deal with redhand, protestant terrorists any more than the UK wanted to deal with the IRA and Catholic terrorists.

These people who go on about reunification, seem to think NI was kept in the UK against the will of the majority of its people, but the UK didn't keep NI just for shits and giggles and just so it could hae all the problems it has caused and still causes, there is a reason the official IRA of the Republic agreed to let NI go and that's because the redhand and other paramilitary groups threatened to start a civil war if they were forced to be ruled by the Catholic South.

And though that divide is getting less and less as the reigous element of the divide lessens to become more of a political question, both the redhand and the IRA have shown any move either way will be met with bloody insurrection again.

The people I've talked to in the Republic as much as they like the grand idea of a unified irleland all accept there best of not touching the hot mess that is NI right now and just let a few more generations pass by befor even thinking about it as a realistic idea.

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The problem with that is the UK courts have to follow UK law. Who makes UK law? That's our Boris. If Boris doesn't like a current law he can just make a new one via his massive democratic majority in parliament that UK courts must follow. And he can make/change laws very quickly overnight as can be witnessed from the recent muzzling order imposed on the UK population in response to the coronavirus. It's a benefit of brexit that he no longer has to refer to the EU for consent. /three cheers for brexit!

If he decides that the WA is for the dustbin, that is where it will go. We will see that process begin to happen tomorrow.

You are correct in that I don't live in NI, I live in brexit Britain. In one of the places coloured here in Blue on this map who also voted by the millions the same way as I. A lot of blue isn't there, a majority many might say.

[Slant]

It's a benefit of brexit that he no longer has to refer to the EU for consent. [SIZE=1]/three cheers for brexit!

He never would have, as current measures in different countries not asking the EU for permission on national matters show. What an idiotic and intentionally dishonest statement.

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Cameron is not the first nor will he be the last Southern fairy to find out the north is willing to cut of any body part if it means a chance to stick it to the southern cunts.

I mourned the loss of the EU they day Cameron announced he would let us vote on it, nothing else has been surprising to say the least.

You're right. And those people absolutely deserve everything they get.

[Mihalik]

sip

The thing is, unification needn't be either an immediate or even long term goal. Just nudging the politics by putting an economic wedge between the GB and NI is enough.

I mean Brexit would have done that WA or no WA, but there's a difference between the EU mostly sitting on the sidelines or putting its weight behind something.

[dribbles]

Let's not forget that Boris campaign promise was to have and make a "Brexit trade deal with the EU".

Going for a no-deal brexit will most likely see him and his party punished on a political level sooner rather than later.

Also a no-deal brexit would mean that the UK shows itself unreliable to follow international agreements and international signed documents, and several nations already condemned it (including the USA) as it would make clear the the current UK government isn't trustworthy enough to make any sort of long-lasting arrangements with.

And that is still the case, but the price cannot be all our fish and keeping us under their laws. If they abide by the political declaration a deal in good faith is still possible. If not the UK will use the mechanisms already provided for in the WA for this eventuality and tear it up as a newly sovereign nation quite correctly and legally in international law.

The respect that follows for the UK by abiding by its legal agreements will stand it in good stead as a trustworthy partner for negotiating globally in the future.

[Slant]

The thing is, unification needn't be either an immediate or even long term goal. Just nudging the politics by putting an economic wedge between the GB and NI is enough.

I mean Brexit would have done that WA or no WA, but there's a difference between the EU mostly sitting on the sidelines or putting its weight behind something.

Interfering into other nation's sovereignity is not what the EU does. Despite what some idiots like to believe. I'm fully aware of what is going on in Belarus, and it is complicated, but there is a difference between calling out a country for oppressing its people and suppressing dissent and interfering in regular domestic economic markets without a good justification other than trying to influence a region to seceede from that nation.

Just food for thought.

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Since we're so happily discussing here, today's news:

https://www.businessinsider.com/brex...20-9?r=DE&IR=T

Boris Johnson's UK government has admitted that its plan to make changes to the Brexit protocol for Northern Ireland is a breach of international law.

In an extraordinary exchange in the House of Commons on Tuesday afternoon, Brandon Lewis, the UK's Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, said the plan "does break international law in a very specific and limited way."

This is how the decline on the international stage begins. I have said before many times that the UK must be considered untrustworthy, this really vindicates my position. The UK is a bad faith actor and I am certain any party negotiating with the UK for trade agreements will take note of this. Apparently, international law does not apply to the UK anymore. They are converting themselves into, literally, a rogue state.

What is remarkable is not even that they do break international law, many countries do on a frequent basis. The casual manner in which he states it shows how indifferent they are to the fact that they are breaking international law, however. They literally think rules only apply to them if they agree to it.

The supreme court is going to have a lot of fun with this one.

[Monster Hunter]

He never would have, as current measures in different countries not asking the EU for permission on national matters show. What an idiotic and intentionally dishonest statement.

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You're right. And those people absolutely deserve everything they get.

The don't care, for most you can't get any poorer than they allready are.

Alot don't have jobs, work temp jobs, gig economy and retail. There daily exhistance is soul destroying.

And Cameron handed them a gun and acted suprised when they shot him......

And that's the thing, life for these people can't get all that much worse. They don't have jobs they care about to loose, they don't have any money to lose, they don't own property, they don't care about fancy European goods they can't really afford anyway. Thatcher took away there only real reason to give a fuck and now they simply Dont.

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The thing is, unification needn't be either an immediate or even long term goal. Just nudging the politics by putting an economic wedge between the GB and NI is enough.

I mean Brexit would have done that WA or no WA, but there's a difference between the EU mostly sitting on the sidelines or putting its weight behind something.

The best thing for the eu, the ra and the UK is generally to leave NI to its self, that place is radioactive politically, its best just to leave it to make its own choices and not try to force it into anything. That's why the UK never pushed its gay rights and women's rights onto it and just left the place to get there in its own time even if it means there half a century behind every one else it just cost far less blood to let em be and work shit out for them selves.

I would fucking love for the UK to be rid of Northern Ireland and I dare say most brits would and secretly most politicians, we took it on knowing it would be a constant pain, and it's proven to be far more of pain than that, the recorded discussions between the UK and Ireland as Ireland got independance basicly state that who ever got NI was getting a poisen pill.

But the last thing any one needs right now is to messabout with NI politics, the best path is the current one, ignore the place and hope the next generation is more to tolerant than the last and one day they will work shit out for them selves.

[Gorsameth]

The don't care, for most you can't get any poorer than they allready are.

Alot don't have jobs, work temp jobs, gig economy and retail. There daily exhistance is soul destroying.

And Cameron handed them a gun and acted suprised when they shot him......

And that's the thing, life for these people can't get all that much worse. They don't have jobs they care about to loose, they don't have any money to lose, they don't own property, they don't care about fancy European goods they can't really afford anyway. Thatcher took away there only real reason to give a fuck and now they simply Dont.

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The best thing for the eu, the ra and the UK is generally to leave NI to its self, that place is radioactive politically, its best just to leave it to make its own choices and not try to force it into anything. That's why the UK never pushed its gay rights and women's rights onto it and just left the place to get there in its own time even if it means there half a century behind every one else it just cost far less blood to let em be and work shit out for them selves.

I would fucking love for the UK to be rid of Northern Ireland and I dare say most brits would and secretly most politicians, we took it on knowing it would be a constant pain, and it's proven to be far more of pain than that, the recorded discussions between the UK and Ireland as Ireland got independance basicly state that who ever got NI was getting a poisen pill.

But the last thing any one needs right now is to messabout with NI politics, the best path is the current one, ignore the place and hope the next generation is more to tolerant than the last and one day they will work shit out for them selves.

Englands lack of love for NI was made clear enough when they voted to effectively place NI outside the UK through the WA.

[Slant]

The don't care, for most you can't get any poorer than they allready are.

Alot don't have jobs, work temp jobs, gig economy and retail. There daily exhistance is soul destroying.

And Cameron handed them a gun and acted suprised when they shot him......

And that's the thing, life for these people can't get all that much worse. They don't have jobs they care about to loose, they don't have any money to lose, they don't own property, they don't care about fancy European goods they can't really afford anyway. Thatcher took away there only real reason to give a fuck and now they simply Dont.

They can starve. There is always room further below. Maybe it's time to care just about as little as they care.

[Temp name]

That's a different debate though and is complaining about an established democratic system with well known rules that doesn't deliver the result you would like. You can't go around changing the system every time the vote doesn't go your way, that would lead to chaos.

But I can claim it's the system that's wrong when you say a majority of people voted for something, and only a minority did but somehow ended up with a majority of the power.

[Kallisto]

The don't care, for most you can't get any poorer than they allready are.

Alot don't have jobs, work temp jobs, gig economy and retail. There daily exhistance is soul destroying.

And Cameron handed them a gun and acted suprised when they shot him......

And that's the thing, life for these people can't get all that much worse. They don't have jobs they care about to loose, they don't have any money to lose, they don't own property, they don't care about fancy European goods they can't really afford anyway. Thatcher took away there only real reason to give a fuck and now they simply Dont.

I don't get this it can't get much worse idea. It can.

If you have a roof over your head it can get extremely more worse, if you fuck up you could end up like some mismaaged african dictatorship where you have to walk 30+ miles for water and hope it isn't full of shit that will kill you drinking it.

[Monster Hunter]

I don't get this it can't get much worse idea. It can.

If you have a roof over your head it can get extremely more worse, if you fuck up you could end up like some mismaaged african dictatorship where you have to walk 30+ miles for water and hope it isn't full of shit that will kill you drinking it.

Probly can, but they don't care or think so. Alot of them hae already spent time homeless or couch surfing at least once in there lives anyway.

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They can starve. There is always room further below. Maybe it's time to care just about as little as they care.

That's where I've gotten to.

I simply do not care anymore, I lost the refendum so fuck it, what will be will be.

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Englands lack of love for NI was made clear enough when they voted to effectively place NI outside the UK through the WA.

Yea. Can you blame England?

We didn't really want them in the first place, they just threatened to start a civil war in the new Republic of Ireland if we didn't keep them.

Lost far to many people and shopping centers to the IRA trying to make point we didn't care about or have all that much control over to begine with.

So fuck it, let it be the Republic of Ireland problem, maybe they can do better.

[Slant]

But I can claim it's the system that's wrong when you say a majority of people voted for something, and only a minority did but somehow ended up with a majority of the power.

And you can absolutely go and improve the system to get a better democratic result. Don't let a crazy person tell you otherwise. It's not gonna be easy, but if enough of you are sick of it, you can call for reforms. Chaos is what we see when a system is so rigid that it cannot adapt. As seen in the UK and the US right now.

[Temp name]

And you can absolutely go and improve the system to get a better democratic result. Don't let a crazy person tell you otherwise. It's not gonna be easy, but if enough of you are sick of it, you can call for reforms. Chaos is what we see when a system is so rigid that it cannot adapt. As seen in the UK and the US right now.

Well, I don't live in the UK, so I can't make them do shit.. But I am quite satisfied with the voting system in my country though, so no need for me to try reforms here.

But really, first past the post is awful. I don't see how any reasonable person can support it as a voting system.

[dribbles]

Well, I don't live in the UK, so I can't make them do shit.. But I am quite satisfied with the voting system in my country though, so no need for me to try reforms here.

But really, first past the post is awful. I don't see how any reasonable person can support it as a voting system.

There are advantages to FPTP in producing a clear winner. Other systems appear to produce a country governed by a coalition of losers never being able to get or agree anything substantive done.

Excellent example being the production of todays UK internal market bill which demands of the EU to honour its obligations of the WA or the UK will tear it up. That sort of decisiveness could never happen in a non FPTP coalition of chaos scenario.

Seems someone is a little upset about it.

Very concerned about announcements from the British government on its intentions to breach the Withdrawal Agreement.

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/stat...64931485745153

Hey ho. My advice to her if she doesn't like it is to do the deal that was promised at the time the UK signed the WA, or stop the tears already.

[Mayhem]

Does anyone know what Dribbs is rabbling about?

[Dhrizzle]

Does anyone know what Dribbs is rabbling about?

He's talking about how FPTP put in place a leader who doesn't have the backing of the majority of the country who is now ramming through legislation that breaks international law and wrecks what little is left if the UK's international reputation. However as he is a terminal bootlicker determined to defend whatever is said by wealthy buffoon with posh accents he is trying to frame it as a good thing.

[Mayhem]

He's talking about how FPTP put in place a leader who doesn't have the backing of the majority of the country who is now ramming through legislation that breaks international law and wrecks what little is left if the UK's international reputation. However as he is a terminal bootlicker determined to defend whatever is said by wealthy buffoon with posh accents he is trying to frame it as a good thing.

Oh, I thought it had some kind of substance, you know with the talk about "the deal that was promised".

[ranzino]

any guess how NI will react, comes january and a rock solid border is up in front of their noses ?

[Xarkan]

There are advantages to FPTP in producing a clear winner. Other systems appear to produce a country governed by a coalition of losers never being able to get or agree anything substantive done.

Excellent example being the production of todays UK internal market bill which demands of the EU to honour its obligations of the WA or the UK will tear it up. That sort of decisiveness could never happen in a non FPTP coalition of chaos scenario.

Seems someone is a little upset about it.

Very concerned about announcements from the British government on its intentions to breach the Withdrawal Agreement.

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/stat...64931485745153

Hey ho. My advice to her if she doesn't like it is to do the deal that was promised at the time the UK signed the WA, or stop the tears already.

What i got from that link is the British government is breaking the law in a "specific and limited way" [according to Brandon Lewis]

Is that what you were talking about?

[jonnysensible]

What i got from that link is the British government is breaking the law in a "specific and limited way" [according to Brandon Lewis]

Is that what you were talking about?

tans doing tan stuff