Development Update: The Road to Shadowlands

[WalterMcD]

I'm not one of the people who are doomsaying covenants. I think i'm in this "this could be decent enough if they manage to tune it well enough by launch" crowd. But i respect that people feel otherwise and the multiple weeks quest before going back to a previously "owned" covenant isnt gonna sit well with ppl. I sympatise with that

Yeah, it may suck to have to move covenants around. I don't fully understand why all the outrage. They wanted covenants to be a pretty significant meaningful choice, along the lines of race/class/spec. What are we going to ask for next, the ability to use every classes spells however we see fit no matter what spec we have chosen? If my covenant makes me x% worse that the next guy who picked a different one, I am ok with that. An MMORPG shouldn't be so cookie cutter. IMHO worrying about a small percentage(if tuning is done well) of performance takes the fun out of the game. I mean two identical "loadouts" can be entirely different performance wise, if someone pushes a couple buttons in a different order than the next person.

[Brash]

I'm just pointing out another major flaw of the system, that is hardly my only or even my most personally relevant criticism of the current design of Covenants. Feel free to poke through my post history to find those, because I really don't feel like rewriting every single criticism I've made of the system over the past couple of months(frankly I haven't made that many, I just get tired of repeating myself).

I know I quoted you specifically but it was aimed more in general of that specific criticism (than towards you specifically) that many people seem so worried about. Group Finder shouldn't be the only social interaction you have with the game. If it is of course you're gonna have a bad time.

[Th3Scourge]

WoW is an MMO just as much as it is an RPG. Covenants have probably doomed the expansion from the start.

I look forward to the "haven't quite worked out as we planned" post for 9.1 when subs plummet

[Pregnant Orc]

The reasons they want us to choose a covenant for are the same reasons they they nerfed racials (which were never at the level of covenants) but they make much more sense for a I want to be an x Paladin.
At the moment racials are at such a low power level that they generally don't matter save for the MDI. We don't have "go goblin for mobility or you are a troll" of old or "why is your melee not Human for weaponskill" from even earlier/classic. So why combine so much power with the aesthetic choice when you spent years making it so that power and aesthetic don't clash in terms of one of the most meaningful choices you make but for this "rental theme" it will be OK since it all goes away with the expansion after SL?
"We want to do X" when the last 10 years have been spent countering X. Untying cosmetic choices from power via lessened racials and transmog systems. Easing up power restrictions by going from 50-100(+?) point talent builds to 7 option builds that can be swapped for free and one set is saved per tree making role switching easier to both do and get into.

"We want players to be “Kyrian paladin” or “Venthyr paladin” rather than just “paladin.” but is that something ANY player wanted? To make it worse they are all new factions that we have (outside of alpha/beta) ZERO RELATION with. Why were the options not something we have a history with like a branch of the Cenarion Circle, a splinter group of the Bloodsails, on offshoot of the Earthen Ring etc? Yes non of them make sense for the Shadowlands but the "join a faction" theme would make more sense for a Azeroth themed expansion over a "expedition to some strange new world" expansion. Rather than pick a faction with years of history and rapport we instead get to spend a few hours with each and then pick at near random since a lot of covenant powers are pretty useless outside of dungeons or other specific scenarios, we don't get to preview the covenants or the conduit changes unless we use third party tools. Same for each factions "mini-game" that we pick without even knowing they exist if we go purely on in game information.

Unless you fully buy into the " I want to be a <Covenant> <Class>" idea or non of them appeal to you all you are left with is a bunch of players whos character now has an ability with a random theme that might clash with not only the class but the players view of the character. Especially since this is the first time we HAVE to pick a faction to join. Sure we have had Aldor/Scryer or the annoying things in Scholosar basin but you didn't have to interact with either if you didn't like any side. The usual thing is that we befriend every new faction we come across that doesn't try to kill us but this time we actively have to go out of our way to shun three out of four and focus on one. Hope there is a theme that appeals to you, especially when two are undead themed, leaving little room for the other half of choices.

Going into the expansion I am not thinking "I want to be a <Covenant> <Class>!" but rather that I hate the theme of the Necrolords so whatever class I end up picking will have to be limited to one that does not seem to have Necrolord as a top pick. The others I can stand even if I don't get my first choice of Night Fae who sadly seem to have some very boring abilities.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Legion pre-patch got announced three/four days before it came live. Its gonna be obviously on 23rd on 30th though.

Hmm, a bit weirded out by the fact that I don't recall the time periods here... I usually do.
Does this mean we've always been left hanging until the pre-patch is very close? That would explain why I never dare take it easy on certain things becoming unavailable with the arrival of a pre-patch...

[Nzx]

I would love to be able to say I play a "Venthyr Paladin" rather than a "Kyrian Paladin", in much the same way people say they play a "Blood Elf Paladin" or a "Zandalari Paladin". Unfortunately, because of 4 simple abilities, it won't be "Venthyr" or "Kyrian", it'll be "M+" or "Raid". Blizzard haven't given us 4 choices that fill similar niches, they've given us 4 choices that fill completely separate niches while also locking us out of playing with the cosmetic or storyline choices that we want. Paladins are actually a great example of this - it's unlikely, for example, that Divine Toll in its current state is going to be useful in any content where you are not regularly fighting five different targets, because Divine Toll only gets 20% of its value on a single target. Venthyr, on the other hand, has now been buffed and works properly (to some extent) in AoE, while also allowing for a single-target damage buff with Hammer of Wrath. So if you don't want to be an "edgy" vampire Paladin, but you primarily raid and therefore spend 90%+ of your time attacking a single target, you have to sacrifice either the role-playing aspects of your character, or the actual gameplay aspects.

The frustrating part is that there's nothing actually "Kyrian" about Divine Toll as an ability - you could just as easily rename it to "Aristocrat's Toll" and it would fit as a Venthyr ability, in the same way renaming "Ashen Hallow" to "Justified Sanctuary" and reskinning it gold would fit as a Kyrian ability. If they had done this, and just made the same four abilities but with different flavour (names, sounds, visual effects) for each covenant, I think there would be less of a mass of disappointment about the system.

The last time I can remember that there was a similar situation to this (when you played Human for PvP or you were trolling), players wound up very commonly using a model-editing program to change their character's model. People, in general, won't choose cosmetics over competitive advantage in a competitive game. I just don't see why Blizzard (or anyone really) would want to make people choose between enjoying what your character looks like, or what their surroundings look like, when you're standing around in a city versus what your character plays like when you're actually playing the game. They've written pages and pages of text and given hours and hours of interviews about this subject but their explanation clearly doesn't resonate with the majority of players, so at what point do they start thinking they might actually be wrong?

[Thetruth1400]

Boom, covenant intended as conceptual identity choice, as I've always said. And there it is. If your character doesn't have a strong enough identity, that's not Blizz's problem. Thank you.

Except it is up to Blizzard to ensure that it is just an identity and people are allowed to make the identity choice they want.

People shouldn't feel forced to take something else because Blizzard fails to actually balance their system lasagna.

That is what the worry is; that is what the problem will be; that is where Blizzard will fail; that is where Blizzard will eventually pull the ripcord, even though it will be too late and we will have Azerite 2.0, where the actual fix to the system, which the player base knows from the start is going to not be balanced, comes 2 or 3 patches

[goldlock]

I would love to be able to say I play a "Venthyr Paladin" rather than a "Kyrian Paladin", in much the same way people say they play a "Blood Elf Paladin" or a "Zandalari Paladin". Unfortunately, because of 4 simple abilities, it won't be "Venthyr" or "Kyrian", it'll be "M+" or "Raid". Blizzard haven't given us 4 choices that fill similar niches, they've given us 4 choices that fill completely separate niches while also locking us out of playing with the cosmetic or storyline choices that we want. Paladins are actually a great example of this - it's unlikely, for example, that Divine Toll in its current state is going to be useful in any content where you are not regularly fighting five different targets, because Divine Toll only gets 20% of its value on a single target. Venthyr, on the other hand, has now been buffed and works properly (to some extent) in AoE, while also allowing for a single-target damage buff with Hammer of Wrath. So if you don't want to be an "edgy" vampire Paladin, but you primarily raid and therefore spend 90%+ of your time attacking a single target, you have to sacrifice either the role-playing aspects of your character, or the actual gameplay aspects.

The frustrating part is that there's nothing actually "Kyrian" about Divine Toll as an ability - you could just as easily rename it to "Aristocrat's Toll" and it would fit as a Venthyr ability, in the same way renaming "Ashen Hallow" to "Justified Sanctuary" and reskinning it gold would fit as a Kyrian ability. If they had done this, and just made the same four abilities but with different flavour (names, sounds, visual effects) for each covenant, I think there would be less of a mass of disappointment about the system.

The last time I can remember that there was a similar situation to this (when you played Human for PvP or you were trolling), players wound up very commonly using a model-editing program to change their character's model. People, in general, won't choose cosmetics over competitive advantage in a competitive game. I just don't see why Blizzard (or anyone really) would want to make people choose between enjoying what your character looks like, or what their surroundings look like, when you're standing around in a city versus what your character plays like when you're actually playing the game. They've written pages and pages of text and given hours and hours of interviews about this subject but their explanation clearly doesn't resonate with the majority of players, so at what point do they start thinking they might actually be wrong?

I don't really think they will... you have to remember they didn't see azerite as a failure but rather chalked it up to players not understanding the system as they constantly circumvented it to gain more power then it was intended to give... Blizzard has a weird " do no wrong" policy where even if it is blindingly clear to everyone that something is broken then tend to just chalk it up to the community not understanding and then spending months to years trying to rework the system to force it onto players.

People in the know are already set to have a character designed around the content they intend to do and maybe run an alt for pvp/mythic+. The idea that you can somehow balance different types of dmg (dots,burst,aoe) and utility and achieve choices competitive with each other is hubris boarding on madness. Still the playerbase will adapt. Addons will be made and people who pick the wrong covenant will be treated the same way players in tbc who tried to make their own hot and spicy fresh talent builds were. Isolated and eventually removed from the community.

[october breeze]

When you have to write 10 paragraphs to explain what a game system to a bunch of nerds and gamers, then this is a shitty system!

[Tortuga234]

The only thing toxic manbabies care about is that there is that one thing that Blizzard didn't cater to them with.

A regular person will see an extensive post with explanation of systems and lots of information. Entitled morons will just see "we aren't allowing you to change covenants 20 times a day"

Very happy Blizz isn't caving in. Excited to play the covenant system where the choice matters.

What is it to you pro-meaningful choice people if it gets unlocked?
You're still gonna pick the one you like and stick with it EVEN IF IT IS NOT LOCKED, there you go you have your personal meaningful choice.
How is letting OTHER people enjoy the game they want to enjoy it take away your own fun? You pick a covenant as your choice and you stick with it, because it is meaningful for you, good happy for you! Can you be happy for people that want to experiment or be good in the content they want to do with the help of unlocked covenants? Or is gloating over someone else's frustration somehow makes your choice more meaningful and fun for you?
That is way more toxic if you ask me.

[Bisque]

So I take it "pull the ripcord" is now dead?

[Mightytasty]

I'm at least glad Blizzard is communicating. They just saved me $15 x (number of months it takes for them to fix this system).

[Doffen]

When you have to write 10 paragraphs to explain what a game system to a bunch of nerds and gamers, then this is a shitty system!

Would be correct if they explained how it works. But that's not what they did. They explained the intended use of Covenants and why they want it to be a big part of Shadowlands.

[Relapses]

Would be correct if they explained how it works. But that's not what they did. They explained the intended use of Covenants and why they want it to be a big part of Shadowlands.

Blizzard: "Yeah, we know you really want this but we're just gonna straight deep dick you guys with the system the way it is and hopefully the community will sort itself out."

Except, you know, it never does. It hasn't in the past. It won't in the future. And it certainly won't happen as long as we have a lead developer who's perfectly okay using millions of paying subscribers as a test bed for his shitty game design decisions. I'm usually on Blizzard's side for a lot of their decisions but this seems exceptionally boneheaded and I cannot for the life of me seeing this system exist like this longer than a single content patch.

[Doffen]

Blizzard: "Yeah, we know you really want this but we're just gonna straight deep dick you guys with the system the way it is and hopefully the community will sort itself out."

Except, you know, it never does. It hasn't in the past. It won't in the future. And it certainly won't happen as long as we have a lead developer who's perfectly okay using millions of paying subscribers as a test bed for his shitty game design decisions. I'm usually on Blizzard's side for a lot of their decisions but this seems exceptionally boneheaded and I cannot for the life of me seeing this system exist like this longer than a single content patch.

And that had anything to do with what I said?

Anyway, let's play along. Borrowed power has been locked behind stuff for 4 years now. This isn't much different. I am looking forward to Shadowlands and Covenants is the reason for that. Love the way they made it. This time with very little rng attached.

[zaxlor]

If they had done this, and just made the same four abilities but with different flavour (names, sounds, visual effects) for each covenant, I think there would be less of a mass of disappointment about the system.

This is what it should have been all along.

Every class, gets one new ability that's either green, red, purple or blue depending on what Covenant you choose. Warriors could get an AOE spell, Mages might get a direct damage one. What ever, but just one ability per class that is shared across all Covenants. That way, there's only complaints about the ability and not that the Venthyr Worgen Blood Mage can't actually roleplay as that, because the Maldraxus Worgen Monster Mage has way better utility!

[Relapses]

And that had anything to do with what I said?

Anyway, let's play along. Borrowed power has been locked behind stuff for 4 years now. This isn't much different. I am looking forward to Shadowlands and Covenants is the reason for that. Love the way they made it. This time with very little rng attached.

I was just using your post as a segue into my carefully worded rant about my personal distaste for the system. Sorry.

And I'm glad you like it. There are likely more people who are agnostic towards this system than against it but I can't help but foresee the myriad of issues it will bring about (especially for people who try to PuG high-level content [ie, me]) and have an extreme level of skepticism wash over me.

[october breeze]

Would be correct if they explained how it works. But that's not what they did. They explained the intended use of Covenants and why they want it to be a big part of Shadowlands.

They are explaining the philosophy behind it. And when you have explain the philosophy and direction of a game system, which is supposed to be just fun, and most people are scratching their heads to understand wtf is going on or disagree with you, it means the system is terrible!

I wonder, why they have implemented such convoluted and controversial system in the beginning? Why indeed?

[Doffen]

I was just using your post as a segue into my carefully worded rant about my personal distaste for the system. Sorry.

And I'm glad you like it. There are likely more people who are agnostic towards this system than against it but I can't help but foresee the myriad of issues it will bring about (especially for people who try to PuG high-level content [ie, me]) and have an extreme level of skepticism wash over me.

I feel used.

I also pug high level content(m+), and I have no issues with it myself. I don't usually play the best class/spec but has always performed well compared to others anyway. To me Covenants will be no different than not having rank 3 CoS for example. The only issue as I see it is the tuning however, like I said in an earlier thread, it does not feel that good to choose fun when fun is 20% damage behind. And I am quite critical towards blizzard on this matter. Maybe not that much for me, but I do think about others(gasp) that feel the need to perform at 100% all the time and feel they need the best power to get there. And don't mistake this for me saying I can be good without it but other's can't, far from it. Some players really want to perform at the highest level and seek whatever they can do to maximize it. It's just me having a less stressful thinking behind it(man my english is good).

Like I said yesterday and the day before and a month ago, blizzard need to tune it NOW, not during the first raid. That's too late and even I might join the hatewagon if they wait until then.

- - - Updated - - -

They are explaining the philosophy behind it. And when you have explain the philosophy and direction of a game system, which is supposed to be just fun, and most people are scratching their heads to understand wtf is going on or disagree with you, it means the system is terrible!

I wonder, why they have implemented such convoluted and controversial system in the beginning? Why indeed?

That's what you meant? Then my bad. I thought you meant they explained how the systems actually work.

[Relapses]

I feel used.

I also pug high level content(m+), and I have no issues with it myself. I don't usually play the best class/spec but has always performed well compared to others anyway. To me Covenants will be no different than not having rank 3 CoS for example. The only issue as I see it is the tuning however, like I said in an earlier thread, it does not feel that good to choose fun when fun is 20% damage behind. And I am quite critical towards blizzard on this matter. Maybe not that much for me, but I do think about others(gasp) that feel the need to perform at 100% all the time and feel they need the best power to get there. And don't mistake this for me saying I can be good without it but other's can't, far from it. Some players really want to perform at the highest level and seek whatever they can do to maximize it. It's just me having a less stressful thinking behind it(man my english is good).

Like I said yesterday and the day before and a month ago, blizzard need to tune it NOW, not during the first raid. That's too late and even I might join the hatewagon if they wait until then.

It's really hard to believe that Blizzard is going to properly balance anything when the deadline for the expansion is less than two months away. These are discussions they should have had with us six months ago and their stubborn tendency to seemingly wait until the last minute is exactly why I'm so skeptical of them pulling this off successfully. Blizzard's words are meaningless when past actions have proven time and time again that they are overwhelmingly reactive instead of being proactive.