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  1. #161
    sounds like ideal time to actually come back is 1 month before 9.1 release date lol. Then we will see the aftermath of all this. Don't stress yourself out. Just sip some sweet tea like kermit meme and see how all this unfolds. Too many players get sucked in playing hundreds of hours per month, things get nerfed left and right. They get upset, reroll to new class/spec/ covenant now and keep going. Other choice is to just zone out and chill. Play some other games, do some other stuff around life then come back right around 1 month before 9.1 which should be February? Then you enjoy all the content that isn't buggy, OP, or soon to be mega nerfed/changed.

  2. #162
    We are going to see so many tears from players who can't get into PUG because of their covenant choice.

  3. #163
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    Yeah because normal dungeons are the same as a +27. Because LFR N'Zoth is the same as mythic N'Zoth. Excellent point kind sir.
    It's same content, but not same progress... there is no more story/locations/mobs/NPCs/etc behind it, so... content ends on the lowest difficulty. He is right

    I don't want to comment PvP-gear's stuff, since this has already been done several times. Covenants' delusions within general system's hierarchy were also criticized several times, with same deplorable (zero) result in terms of changes. As for sockets and other "modernization", here I completely agree with people that recalled professions - this is required by normal design of such games, this is their direct purpose within framework of itemization (I'd call legendary crafting and additional theme with sockets by using "theme: monster of the day" as borrowed-temporary professions ).

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    So wheres my raid power, my m+ power, my wq power?
    Every stat helps you in PVE..

    Crit is nerfed by 50% in PVP. Theres youre "raid power"
    Oddly enough, but he is right, one PvP power isn't enough, there also needed such for PvE, and no matter how much I try to remind about it in every such topic, but still bumping on the wall of misunderstanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.
    at the same time, common customizable characteristics hold them together within one system (without need to artificially weaken players against each other, and without canceling need to make them stronger against mobs). WoD gearing doesn't fulfill this condition (= is still wrong), since both of them were simply deleted.
    also "Crit is nerfed by 50% in PVP" is wrong approach, because it has no "gear conditioning".

    Referring to person in quote of quote... in fact, instances/wq shouldn't be alternative to raids (I'm not accepting literal division of difficulties, since it also divides entire game design, but shouldn't), but only one of stages of obtaining ALL PvE content (= only part of linear progress' system) and it's enough for them just general "PvE powers" within the system, while raids used additional gear sets with bonuses, but could also have some separating element (we already talked about this a long time ago):
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    --- Edited ---
    I can even fantasize over some stupid "addition" as a parameter (and design of this game was initially completely tied to control only through characteristics, but not the way they trying to push in last expansions). For example: raid gear will have separate additional line that will add a couple of percent of "benefits" in case when there are more than 5 people in the group (but only! raid gear) or something else trickier, but only! as characteristic. I hope you got the gist. Let's call it just for laughter "team spirit". This will some kind as resilience was for PvP, but for raid content. Here you go, now you have "your" content separate. If you do everything right, you don't even need higher ilvl (same for PvP) But what is now not making this part separate, only allowing "cheating with progress" and even worse - delivering huge demand for RNG to the market. Yes, I know that this role was performed by tiers earlier, but since they conflicted with new designers' stormy "revolutionary" spirit to change everything, so now they don't work, and they're absent in new content.
    again, as I said before, there is also variant of absolute separation of "both games" and the one - by "existing PvE characteristics"
    tl;dr
    - snip -
    in one of discussions we considered absolute case of separation, in which all white defense was replaced by "PvP-defense", and white attack by "PvP-attack" - as tier-bonus (by analogy with trinkets) from joint use of both PvP-weapons, but this deprives system of succession and catch-up functionality, which I don't like
    but I don't like them both. I see it easier and more correct to manipulate not absolute, but rating characteristics, which are easier to configure and which won't completely cancel basic (existing) ones (= twist not the whole system, but only 1 of its switches, which will already affect the rest ones for particular situation). Such parameter could be resilience (= which could give/replace all PvE ones for specific interaction without taking away customization possibilities), and PvE powers (hit/expertise/etc.) practically didn't carry any useful potential for PvP (unlike for PvE), both activities would require certain caps to participate, and rewards then could be of same ilvl (= provide same level of customization/strengthening) and no "mathematical" dumping (= scaling) is needed.

    By the way, upgrades' system isn't bad for lengthening the process (if you really want to torment PvP players)... but not so many steps, guys, have a conscience, MoP's 2/4ilvl extra steps system for each tier is enough here (especially considering how much I hate abnormal stat inflation you generate), otherwise, price of upgrades should be minimal. Also... why only PvP then, how about same stuff for PvE, mmm?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-01-25 at 10:32 AM.
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  4. #164
    People really justify their rant on covenants on the assumption that you won't get into PUGs? Wow ... pugging content is literally the worst part of the game. Why would you be worried that you are not able to take part in the most toxic community of the game? Just chose the covenants that fits your character or your fantasy the most and find a casual or chill back guild and do content with them. If doing marginal less dps then your buddy is hurting your epeen that much, well i guess you're to blame, that you're forced to stick to a covenant.

  5. #165
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glszino View Post
    We are going to see so many tears from players who can't get into PUG because of their covenant choice.
    Is Covenant choice visible on the API? If not, why not just lie?

    TBH this is Warcraft, not Starcraft. Each player controls their own characters and not everyone else's.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Is Covenant choice visible on the API? If not, why not just lie?

    TBH this is Warcraft, not Starcraft. Each player controls their own characters and not everyone else's.
    It will be part of the API for sure. You can't lie your way out of this. If PUG groups expect to have a Night Fae for the dungeon to get the bonus, PUG will probably ask beforehand for covenant proof.

    You can be 100% sure that if Blizzard doesn't provide a way to know player's covenants, there is going to be an addon based on logs of whatever that will show it.

    PUG life is going to be shit for lots of players, especially DPS players. Healers and tanks will be fine most of the time since there isn't enough players in these roles. If DPS want to PUG, they will need to have what's considered the best covenant for their class because they will be discriminated against based on RIO, class, spec and covenants.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    What is it to you pro-meaningful choice people if it gets unlocked?
    You're still gonna pick the one you like and stick with it EVEN IF IT IS NOT LOCKED, there you go you have your personal meaningful choice.
    How is letting OTHER people enjoy the game they want to enjoy it take away your own fun? You pick a covenant as your choice and you stick with it, because it is meaningful for you, good happy for you! Can you be happy for people that want to experiment or be good in the content they want to do with the help of unlocked covenants? Or is gloating over someone else's frustration somehow makes your choice more meaningful and fun for you?
    That is way more toxic if you ask me.
    Here's my reply to this from another thread.

    No. Covenants being easily swappable changes the entire thing into just another talent option and removes any kind of importance of that choice.

    It doesn't matter how invested you are in a covenant nor how cool it is, if it's just a one click button and 2 second channel to switch it. So yes, even if you think a faction is cool, you are going to swap away for it whenever a pug leader or a specific boss encounter favors it. If it's semi-permanent, then 99,9% of people aren't going to even consider going through crazy grinds to change the covenant for one fight. Maybe in top world guilds people will do that, but the rest of the player base will be able to sleep soundly that no one will require that from them.

    In a way it's kind of similar to personal loot item level restriction. I can't count how many people in my heroic guild were like "oh dude sorry man can't trade that item to you cause of the ilvl, effin blizzard man" while talking to someone else who wanted the item and then told me in private later that they were just using that as an excuse and were secretly happy that the system blocked them from giving that item away because otherwise it would make them look bad for keeping a small upgrade rather than giving it to someone else.

    So if you're wondering how covenant switch being gated for 2 weeks affects gameplay of less hardcore players...the answer is they won't be expected to switch it on the fly by pug leaders & guild raid leader. As a little bonus, if they actually "pulled the ripcord" that would mean that on top of being readily able to switch, people would have to learn to play their class with all the covenant abilities instead of just one. This might be the most important reason as to why Blizz is so reluctant to do that.
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Is Covenant choice visible on the API? If not, why not just lie?

    TBH this is Warcraft, not Starcraft. Each player controls their own characters and not everyone else's.
    Regardless of API or not, you can be forced to prove you have X ability by using it before any m+ since it resets CD's anyway.
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  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post

    So if you're wondering how covenant switch being gated for 2 weeks affects gameplay of less hardcore players...the answer is they won't be expected to switch it on the fly by pug leaders & guild raid leader. As a little bonus, if they actually "pulled the ripcord" that would mean that on top of being readily able to switch, people would have to learn to play their class with all the covenant abilities instead of just one. This might be the most important reason as to why Blizz is so reluctant to do that.[/I]
    So, in other words, casual players need an artificial excuse to be bad?
    The other option is find like-minded casual people, who would not expect you to switch on the fly. Looks like the entire narrative these days that this type of player is 99% of the player base, no?

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    In a perfect world, where everyone played everything perfectly and effectively, this would be 100% true 100% of the time.

    The problem is, different players can perform differently, and at different times. So while one choice might be numerically superior when performed 100% optimally, a player may not be able play that spec optimally and can only manage to do it at ~90% efficiency or whatever for a variety of reasons. Whereas they might be able to take another build choice and perform closer to 100% effectiveness, which would increase their personal DPS above what they could do with the optimal spec.

    Trying to pretend that any given choice or build is going to be the absolute best performance anyone can get, in all situations, is also absolute poppycock.
    A: In some cases, it absolutely is that simple.
    B: In cases where it isn't that simple, it is still the best information we have available.
    C: Very few of the talents are complicated enough that they are any harder than any other ability in the game to play "optimally" with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Is Covenant choice visible on the API? If not, why not just lie?

    TBH this is Warcraft, not Starcraft. Each player controls their own characters and not everyone else's.
    Yeah, that'll work.

    If people start lying, people start requiring proof of covenant. It's not hard.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Not as toxic as forcing everyone into a meaningless choice. If you can just switch anytime as many times as you please then you haven't made a choice. Might as well just scrap the whole thing at that point.
    So your choice is not meaningful if you have the option to change your mind? Sticking to the thing you like even when presented with other options is not meaningful? Sorry to break it to you, but then anything you ever did in your life choice-wise is not meaningful by that logic.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    This will 100% turn into 'what cov are you?' when pugging.
    Only if you are an elitist jerk. And you can always make your own grp where you dont make it an issue.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Uh? They are separating prepatch and sl launch. Prepatch ~ a month before launch. Then just before release add in the sl stuff so they can keep working on it for a couple weeks.
    What's odd is that they feel the need to announce this, as if every expansion before Shadowlands didn't get a small patch between the prepatch and the expansion release with minor stuff that was added to beta during that month.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Domixux View Post
    People really justify their rant on covenants on the assumption that you won't get into PUGs? Wow ... pugging content is literally the worst part of the game. Why would you be worried that you are not able to take part in the most toxic community of the game? Just chose the covenants that fits your character or your fantasy the most and find a casual or chill back guild and do content with them. If doing marginal less dps then your buddy is hurting your epeen that much, well i guess you're to blame, that you're forced to stick to a covenant.

    In my experience, choosing a laid back guild who doesn't care what covenant you choose for your class/spec/role means you'll never actually do any content. Those guilds are lucky to prog through normal. Literally any guild that takes the game even marginally seriously (heroic raiding at least; M15+ at least, etc) is going to care, the same way they care about your talents, essences, azerite, corruption, etc etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by martinboy
    Only if you are an elitist jerk. And you can always make your own grp where you dont make it an issue.
    Yeah, the kind of group that can't finish a 15.

  15. #175
    Well, the 2 week CD on respec has already killed my exitement for the expansion.
    I've been in every alpha/beta (except for TBC) and never once has my hype been crushed before the expansion was even out.

    That blizzard has designed the system so a respec is clunky to achive is not a good reason not to have it in. Remake the system then.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You just can't resist making it personal.

    Sorry, dude, i'm not out there discriminating people for their choices, much to your dismay. It doesn't change the fact that it is how things are perceived and shock and awe i agree that is unhealthy, wich is why i'd like to see all this min maxing go away. The only way to do that is by breaking respective addons and the info given to players.

    Pretending it's not there, is not gonna work, as much as you want or as much as i want. Blame the community all you want, it's still gonna happen. This is reality. People behave this way. So, what are you sugesting? Pretending it isn't there and hoping people will change? Well... good luck with that.
    It wasn't meant to be personal, just pointing out that you're spreading the same complaints that "those" people do.

    You don't have to pretend it isn't there, you just have to not partake in it. Let the assholes do their thing, and you can go do yours. Why let what those dickheads do and say, knowing that's it's completely untrue, ruin your entire gaming experience?

  17. #177
    The key is the casual players, if the casual players complain, start to flood the forums post SL launch with: I can't get into X group activity because they want me to go Necrolord but I really like Night Fae ( or whatever covenant) then I can guarantee blizz will change their stance on covenant swapping. To most casual players, outside players, the covenant issue seems like a "1%" type problem a " min maxer, min/maxing the fun out of the game" -whether that is true or not, I don't know, I don't have beta access.

    We will see post launch if this is a 1% of the player type issue or it affects everyone, and if it does negatively affect the casual player base and that player base is vocal then I am pretty sure blizz will make change

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    A: In some cases, it absolutely is that simple.
    B: In cases where it isn't that simple, it is still the best information we have available.
    C: Very few of the talents are complicated enough that they are any harder than any other ability in the game to play "optimally" with.
    So, you have irrefutable proof that every player, everywhere, can play every "optimal" spec/build with 100% efficiency in every situation? Bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Well, the 2 week CD on respec has already killed my exitement for the expansion.
    I've been in every alpha/beta (except for TBC) and never once has my hype been crushed before the expansion was even out.

    That blizzard has designed the system so a respec is clunky to achive is not a good reason not to have it in. Remake the system then.
    It's not a 2 week cooldown, there are two weekly quests so you can switch twice in a week, not once every two weeks. At least that's how I read it.

    For those wanting to switch, it still sucks, but that's significantly better than once every 2 weeks.

  19. #179
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    What's frustrating to me is that Ion does interviews with people like Preach where he says explicitly that they're aware of the concerns and they have a "back-up plan" (pull the ripcord) in hand. But then months go on and nothing changes and we get this lengthy post where he spends four paragraphs basically saying "you think you do but you don't." I'd be less irritated if they were more direct with their reasoning. Don't tell us you're open to the idea of change when past precedence has clearly told us that you prefer to release these systems into the wild before tuning anything. It's hard not to be cynical and wonder why they even bother in the first place because there doesn't seem to be a positive outcome that doesn't involve breaking promises or lots of "we made an oopsie" retrospective dev watercoolers after shit inevitably hits the fan.

    I suppose time will tell but it's still extremely disappointing to see things play out like this.
    Nothing has changed since the talk with preach they still think it’s a system they want to use and want as much feed back as possible to get it in the right place.

    They were never going to scape it before launch because abunch of people who saw abunch of untuned numbers complained in videos or on the forums. At best if it’s a realm problem said rip cord would have been pulled before 9.1 but never before 9.0.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Nothing has changed since the talk with preach they still think it’s a system they want to use and want as much feed back as possible to get it in the right place.

    They were never going to scape it before launch because abunch of people who saw abunch of untuned numbers complained in videos or on the forums. At best if it’s a realm problem said rip cord would have been pulled before 9.1 but never before 9.0.
    This is a textbook example of moving goal posts. Words matter and I think Preach was pretty direct with his question. If they had no intention of removing it before 9.0 then they should have said that.

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