Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Relapses]

Real life scenario just happened, not more than a minute ago:
On my disc priest that I'm running as shadow, cause, yeah, I want to dps. Anyway, got a 14 key for Waycrest. I get a healer and a dps pretty fast. Saving the last dps spot for lust class and then the final slot, of course, for a tank.

So, we've been in queue for about 5mins. Looking at the list of apps, nothing that I'm looking for. And then I get a tell from a rogue that is in the queue; ilevel 465 no raider.io score at all. One, I want a lust class. Two, no raider.io score at all. So anyway, the tell: Hey man, I know I don't have a raider.io score but my main is over 3k. Dude I know that dungeon!!!! Invite, please!. My response: what's your main's name? So he gives me the name of a demon hunter that is in fact over 3k. This demon hunter has 7 alts attached to his main all of them around 2k. I find it weird that the demon hunter would have so many alts attached to his main but not this one. So I ask the rogue: why isn't your rogue alt attached to the main?
His response, and I almost pissed myself with laughter: fuck raider.io man, fuck it.

Hahahahahhahahaha

Of course, this is another raider.io problem.

....anyway, back to my queue.

...you're missing the point. He's 3k IO inside and if Disney has taught us anything, it's that it's what's inside that counts.

[Wuusah]

There's no such thing as high end M+. Just larger numbers with more loot drops per completion and that's it. No new rewards, no higher ilvls, nothing. Same old mechanics, same old dungeons designed to keep you in longer.

Just because you are not doing it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

MDI is not huge. Wow is barely a speck on the eSports scene. It's even a joke between players that it's fucking silly to watch people rush to skip as much content as possible against a timer. My guildies and I made fun of it when it was first introduced and I haven't heard from it since, till now I guess.

It’s a joke between players in your circle because for some reason you feel the need to make fun of players who push their limits. MDI is actually rather popular. You should ask yourself why you feel the need to make fun of it? Maybe you’re jealous?

[Stardrift]

Just because you are not doing it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.



It’s a joke between players in your circle because for some reason you feel the need to make fun of players who push their limits. MDI is actually rather popular. You should ask yourself why you feel the need to make fun of it? Maybe you’re jealous?

I'm saying it's not high end to do anything above +15. There's no reward to it other than more gear drops. It's just a speedrun on big number mode.

No, MDI is not very popular at all. Wow struggles to carry much viewers on Twitch, and rarely makes it to the top of the list. And when it does, it's because of a raid or some balding nerd. Never because of MDI.

[arkanon]

I'm saying it's not high end to do anything above +15. There's no reward to it other than more gear drops. It's just a speedrun on big number mode.

No, MDI is not very popular at all. Wow struggles to carry much viewers on Twitch, and rarely makes it to the top of the list. And when it does, it's because of a raid or some balding nerd. Never because of MDI.

I am so confused by what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting for content to be considered high end content, it needs to offer high end rewards? Sucks to be an Olympic gold medalist then, ill let them all know that they are not competing in high end competition, because their gold medal is only worth about $600.

[Wuusah]

I'm saying it's not high end to do anything above +15. There's no reward to it other than more gear drops. It's just a speedrun on big number mode.

No, MDI is not very popular at all. Wow struggles to carry much viewers on Twitch, and rarely makes it to the top of the list. And when it does, it's because of a raid or some balding nerd. Never because of MDI.

There doesn’t have to be a reward for it to be high end... this is such a stupid argument...

And obviously their twitch numbers are low if MDI aren’t streamed on Twitch. You don’t know what you are talking about.

[arkanon]

There doesn’t have to be a reward for it to be high end... this is such a stupid argument...

And obviously their twitch numbers are low if MDI aren’t streamed on Twitch. You don’t know what you are talking about.

You heard her - twitch numbers are never high, except when they are.

[Stardrift]

I am so confused by what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting for content to be considered high end content, it needs to offer high end rewards? Sucks to be an Olympic gold medalist then, ill let them all know that they are not competing in high end competition, because their gold medal is only worth about $600.

Glad to know you're unaware of how much gold, silver and bronze medalists earn alongside their medals.

- - - Updated - - -

There doesn’t have to be a reward for it to be high end... this is such a stupid argument...

And obviously their twitch numbers are low if MDI aren’t streamed on Twitch. You don’t know what you are talking about.

Yea it does? Even if it had rewards, it still wouldn't be high end. Again, it is quite literally just a speed run.

It's comparable to speedrunning an RPG game with your armour and weapons off to artificially inflate damage received and reduce damage done. It's fake difficulty. It's still the same game, just higher numbers.

People criticize the hardmodes in other games for just being number inflators, rather than adding in actual difficulty mechanics.

How is M+ high end? All you've done was go "NUH UH YOU RONK" and insult me lol

Is that really what's considered high end by those who have spent 50% of their /played in a battle pet dungeon?

Also as a side note.. Not even Blizz watches MDI. C'mon.

[Wuusah]

Glad to know you're unaware of how much gold, silver and bronze medalists earn alongside their medals.

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Yea it does? Even if it had rewards, it still wouldn't be high end. Again, it is quite literally just a speed run.

It's comparable to speedrunning an RPG game with your armour and weapons off to artificially inflate damage received and reduce damage done. It's fake difficulty. It's still the same game, just higher numbers.

People criticize the hardmodes in other games for just being number inflators, rather than adding in actual difficulty mechanics.

How is M+ high end? All you've done was go "NUH UH YOU RONK" and insult me lol

Is that really what's considered high end by those who have spent 50% of their /played in a battle pet dungeon?

Damn you sound bitter.

How is higher numbers not high end? It’s not necessarily an interesting way to increase the difficulty but how is it not “high end” to be at the highest point?

You make no sense.

[Firebert]

No, MDI is not very popular at all.

First time I saw MDI, I thought that it was some kind of new group finder for Mythic Dungeons.

Once I found out that it was another Blizzard crowbarring content into esports it just became another thing to ignore.

[Twdft]

Even if it had rewards, it still wouldn't be high end. Again, it is quite literally just a speed run.

It's comparable to speedrunning an RPG game with your armour and weapons off to artificially inflate damage received and reduce damage done. It's fake difficulty. It's still the same game, just higher numbers.

Higher keys are not just "same same more damage", the higher you go the more you have to change certain tactics. My group did a Tol Dagor 22 tyrannical the other week and to beat it we had to stop hunters feigning death on Deadeye.

[arkanon]

Glad to know you're unaware of how much gold, silver and bronze medalists earn alongside their medals.

Right so based on your own logic, if someone earns money by streaming their +12 keys, they are suddenly a high end player? Can you not see how flawed your "logic" is?

Olympic gold medal - $600 reward with additional rewards from other sources = high end
+22 key - same reward as +15 with additional rewards from other sources (streaming) = NOT high end.

When you put your narrative down and have an honest look at things, you will realise you are just pushing an agenda, and there is no logic at all behind what you are saying.

[ID811717]

Glad to know you're unaware of how much gold, silver and bronze medalists earn alongside their medals.

Nigeria awards $2k for a gold medal, so I guess it's not high end, after all. That's apparently just twice the median monthly salary in the country.

[confety]

Came back to the game like 3 weeks ago from a 4 months break, to do the 5mask solo run before the prepatch, i did like ONE +5 in the whole 8.3 season and i had no problem in getting invited to a +8 key with like 200 RIO score and 450 ilvl.

I mean its not that big of a deal but i understand people want to control who they invite for +10 and above, if they take down RIO then people will invite based on ilvl alone, which is probably worse for casuals and pushers both.

I prefer a 460 ilvl with a lot of timed +10 than a 475 with 0 score, personally.

[ClassicPeon]

There's no such thing as high end M+. Just larger numbers with more loot drops per completion and that's it. No new rewards, no higher ilvls, nothing. Same old mechanics, same old dungeons designed to keep you in longer.

MDI is not huge. Wow is barely a speck on the eSports scene. It's even a joke between players that it's fucking silly to watch people rush to skip as much content as possible against a timer. My guildies and I made fun of it when it was first introduced and I haven't heard from it since, till now I guess.

What makes you think that you, not the community, sets the definition for what is high end?

Your statements here just make you seem like someone who is salty they arent part of said community.

MDI isnt huge compared to the biggest esports out there, but its huge compared to the average esport. Your bully like anecdotes dont serve as an argument against MDI being big, it just makes you seem like a bad person :/

[Bloodyleech]

No less information isn't good. But there is an alternative that some of us are proposing: Have a PvE rating score similar to how there is a PvP rating score. Base this PvE score based off performance, class/spec knowledge and dungeon experience. R.io has some elements of this but is still based off the team effort instead of the individual contribution. Like did the individual use interrupts? Did they use their class utility to help the group? Did that healer also pump out some serious DPS numbers? How often (if any) did the individual stand in fire?

2 parts of this idea are easily screwed. Have a premade, this premade pulls huge stuff, only lets one player kick, pull less for more healer dps and so on.
This is no solution at all - even pvp rating does not reflect this in any way. Ofc you expect a 3k PvP player that he knows is class and stuff, but it's the very same system that Rio uses.
Both scores don't reflect a players skill in a direct way. Why creating a new system for pve, when the pvp system is working the same way for YEARS?

I've read some of your replies to this now and.. Your idea would only work in a build community, not in pug world. This could create an even bigger gap between people that got a "good" rating and a "bad" rating. Why should a "good rating" player go into a dungeon with a "bad rating" player, as this one is obviously not able to play good? Missing kicks, low dps, no cc..... It's worse than a general rating that shows experience.

[BeepBoo]

[B][U][SIZE=4]And lastly, I don't need to make my own group because I run in a guild who is active in M+ (and raiding). So I don't have the PuG problem but that doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to their cause.

Don't be sympathetic to bad/unlucky people who are behind the curve and scared of social situations: problem solved!

I'm not interested in playing with anyone who gets themselves into pug hell land for any reason. Why should I be? It's not like I NEED to take a chance on them. Plenty of other replacements who are as good or better and also have the discriminators I'm looking for.

Basically... stop asking me or other players to be sympathetic to their cause. You want to be? Cool. Go do it. But stop asking us to be. We have no reason to and we WANT the system to work this way. We're looking for ways to avoid these types of people in our play. Let us. Stop fucking trying to get us to be one big happy family.

[Stardrift]

Damn you sound bitter.

How is higher numbers not high end? It’s not necessarily an interesting way to increase the difficulty but how is it not “high end” to be at the highest point?

You make no sense.

Again, it's a speedrun against pretend numbers and no rewards.

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First time I saw MDI, I thought that it was some kind of new group finder for Mythic Dungeons.

Once I found out that it was another Blizzard crowbarring content into esports it just became another thing to ignore.

I assume this is what just about everyone in the community thinks of MDI, including myself.

[Wuusah]

Again, it's a speedrun against pretend numbers and no rewards.

And Usain Bolt is just speedrunning from one place to the other. I don’t get why everyone is so amazed by him. Most people run around...

[Stardrift]

What makes you think that you, not the community, sets the definition for what is high end?

Your statements here just make you seem like someone who is salty they arent part of said community.

MDI isnt huge compared to the biggest esports out there, but its huge compared to the average esport. Your bully like anecdotes dont serve as an argument against MDI being big, it just makes you seem like a bad person :/

What average eSport? MDI compares to shit all. There's more viewership for RTWF and some balding nerd who loves to show off his mounts.

The community certainly doesn't recognize M+ as high end as they just don't do it. Everyone's busy doing 15+ once a week and logging off for the rest. There's no motives to go do anything above 15+.

Saying M+ is high end is like saying removing some pieces of armour to lower your ilvl then running normal Uldir is high end. You're just fighting with bigger numbers, that's literally all it is.

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And Usain Bolt is just speedrunning from one place to the other. I don’t get why everyone is so amazed by him. Most people run around...

Lmao. Because physically training to break world record running speeds = popping stealth pots and CDs to avoid an entire dungeon and then brute forcing boss mechanics in a video game, right?

Listen. M+ and the IO side of the community is nothing but overglorified LFR trash. Shit gets dumped on by proper players in guilds daily. Keep on denying those pugs in hopes of finding a really high IO score popping up lmao

[tehealadin]

There's no such thing as high end M+. Just larger numbers with more loot drops per completion and that's it. No new rewards, no higher ilvls, nothing. Same old mechanics, same old dungeons designed to keep you in longer.
.

The same old mechanics don't play the same at higher key levels, how you approach some, or rather how seriously you need to take them changes as it gets higher. Even still, this is a poor argument, there clearly is high end M+. To try to assert that it doesn't exist, then to offer such a poor argument in favour of this assertion isn't a good look.