[Spoilers] Shadowlands: Afterlives Cinematic Discussion

[Super Dickmann]

So far the only source for the zone are mortal souls, just like any other plane, mortal souls wander these groves usually giving up their anima over time.

Do they then cease to exist? I've not got Beta, so I'm mostly going by what I've seen elsewhere. Are these tenders former people? Ditto @Aucald if you're just Joe Schmoe the naturist and you go there, do you have to give up your anima and cease to exist?

@Coconut

Yeah, this debunks the Soul Cage theory barring some timeline changes. I'm moving towards figuring it broke with Helya being killed the first time and the Soul Cage was somehow a pre-requisite of that.

[Rhlor]

so ara'lon and winter queen are evil?? they are sacrificing innocent souls instead of searching and solving the source of the problem? so horrendous! I hope we defeat them in a raid!

[Combatbutler]

Do they then cease to exist? I've not got Beta, so I'm mostly going by what I've seen elsewhere. Are these tenders former people?

These tenders seem to be shadowland natives, the only mortals I have seen there have just taken up animal forms and roam the wild and I would assume that once they have truly spend all their anima they die, but supposedly anima given is also returned in some way, but that of course is not really delved into, instead you get to collect ten more materials.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Guys he's dead dead.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Read_the_Roots

When my grove fell, I answered the Queen's call, and joined the Wild Hunt.

Nothing can be done to bring the tree, or the spirits within, back.

[Coconut]

Yeah, this debunks the Soul Cage theory barring some timeline changes. I'm moving towards figuring it broke with Helya being killed the first time and the Soul Cage was somehow a pre-requisite of that.

The Soul Cage never sat well with me tbh. It broke so easily that ultimately whoever wanted it broken could have done it on their own. Yes, there could be some convoluted reasoning about involving Sylvanas, but personally I would prefer it if it was something else.

[Aucald]

so ara'lon and winter queen are evil?? they are sacrificing innocent souls instead of searching and solving the source of the problem? so horrendous! I hope we defeat them in a raid!

No, not really. The souls who go to Ardenweald are those with a profound connection to the natural world, they *choose* to sacrifice themselves to what they deem as a greater purpose (e.g. the resurrection of their gods, guides, and so forth). If you were unwilling to surrender your anima or to serve the Night Fae in a greater capacity then you go elsewhere.

[Varodoc]

The Soul Cage theory doesn't make sense. If breaking the lantern is what caused the machine to shatter, then why the hell was Sylvanas furious when Greymane broke it? Breaking the machine was literally what Sylvanas and Jailer wanted.

The final catalyst for the destruction of the machine has to be something that happened in later Legion, possibly 7.3.

[Missmagy]

Didn't we see Ursoc in the Emerald Dream though after freeing him from the nightmare just like Ysera?
Why is he now suddenly in ardenweald being reborn/sacrificed, does this mean the Emerald Dream is nothing more than a literal room with portals to fast-travel to other places or to just hang out, before ardenweald it was believed wild gods would return to the emerald dream upon death no?

[Aucald]

Do they then cease to exist? I've not got Beta, so I'm mostly going by what I've seen elsewhere. Are these tenders former people? Ditto Aucald if you're just Joe Schmoe the naturist and you go there, do you have to give up your anima and cease to exist?

Yeah, this debunks the Soul Cage theory barring some timeline changes. I'm moving towards figuring it broke with Helya being killed the first time and the Soul Cage was somehow a pre-requisite of that.

The Night Fae seem to be creatures of the Shadowlands themselves, and not former mortal souls or anything like that. The process of shedding one's anima can be a gradual thing, or it can be immediate, seemingly depending on the choice of the soul. It is confirmed as voluntary, though.

As for the chronology of when Death broke, this does seem to confirm that the breaking of the Soul Cage wasn't direct cause. The timeline is still solidly in Legion, but precisely where is still up in the air.

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Didn't we see Ursoc in the Emerald Dream though after freeing him from the nightmare just like Ysera?
Why is he now suddenly in ardenweald being reborn/sacrificed, does this mean the Emerald Dream is nothing more than a literal room with portals to fast-travel to other places or to just hang out, before ardenweald it was believed wild gods would return to the emerald dream upon death no?

We see him there briefly, yes. But the Emerald Dream is apparently just a way-station on the way to the Ardenweald for the purposes of being reborn. We see Ysera there as well, and she also goes on to Ardenweald to actually be reborn. Presumably all the shades we encounter in the Emerald Dream made their way to Ardenweald eventually, except perhaps the mortal Druids themselves.

[Combatbutler]

Didn't we see Ursoc in the Emerald Dream though after freeing him from the nightmare just like Ysera?
Why is he now suddenly in ardenweald being reborn/sacrificed, does this mean the Emerald Dream is nothing more than a literal room with portals to fast-travel to other places or to just hang out, before ardenweald it was believed wild gods would return to the emerald dream upon death no?

Yep Ardenweald replaced a few of the emerald dreams functions.

[Coconut]

The Soul Cage theory doesn't make sense. If breaking the lantern is what caused the machine to shatter, then why the hell was Sylvanas furious when Greymane broke it? Breaking the machine was literally what Sylvanas and Jailer wanted.

The final catalyst for the destruction of the machine has to be something that happened in later Legion, possibly 7.3.

I think the rationale was that breaking the lantern was also what got Sylvanas to side with them. Still, why should she be essential to the plan? If Helya had the lantern and she already served the Jailer, she could have broken it herself, or had a Kval'dir do it, long ago.

[Varodoc]

What happened to Cenarius the kaldorei demigod? He was slain shortly after Ursoc, so I imagine his soul was also sacrificed during this time of crisis? It wouldn't surprise me if they casually perm-kill Cenarius, Blizzard has a history of abusing night elf fans.

I think the rationale was that breaking the lantern was also what got Sylvanas to side with them. Still, why should she be essential to the plan? If Helya had the lantern and she already served the Jailer, she could have broken it herself, or had a Kval'dir do it, long ago.

At that point she already served the Jailer. Her becoming Warchief was orchestrated by the Jailer, who had Mueh'zala whisper to Vol'jin. Sylvanas also made friends with Varian to politically secure her position as Warchief.

[CalamityHeart]

so ara'lon and winter queen are evil?? they are sacrificing innocent souls instead of searching and solving the source of the problem? so horrendous! I hope we defeat them in a raid!

I don't really think they have much of a choice.

Whether or not they even can solve the anima drought issue from Ardenweald itself, which I'm guessing it'll turn out they cannot, Ardenweald is not going to patiently stop dying while the Night Fae work out what the problems are. Some souls have to be sacrificed so that ALL souls aren't lost. That's not evil. That's a difficult decision for a leader to have to make.

[Feanoro]

Yep Ardenweald replaced a few of the emerald dreams functions.

It continues the SL theme: "NewStuff is OldStuff, but even more so!"

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

What happened to Cenarius the kaldorei demigod? He was slain shortly after Ursoc, so I imagine his soul was also sacrificed during this time of crisis? It wouldn't surprise me if they casually perm-kill Cenarius, Blizzard has a history of abusing night elf fans.

We never killed him in the fight. At the end of the fight he's lying down while Malfurion cleanses him of corruption. We see him at the end of the raid completely healed.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Cenarius#Legion

[Coconut]

The Night Fae seem to be creatures of the Shadowlands themselves, and not former mortal souls or anything like that. The process of shedding one's anima can be a gradual thing, or it can be immediate, seemingly depending on the choice of the soul. It is confirmed as voluntary, though.

I can see souls becoming animals in Ardenweald and then gradually dying as a result of the food chain. The voluntary part seems to be strange though. Wouldn't this require a certain kind of culture in life, or some awareness of the cycle, in order to feel justified? Do the freed Night Elf souls that arrive in Ardenweald say anything about this? Do they expect/accept to become mulch some day? If anything, the Night Elves would have usually avoided the Shadowlands altogether, with their souls fueling their own Ashenvale forest as wisps (perhaps attempting to copy the cycle seen in Ardenweald).

[Aucald]

What happened to Cenarius the kaldorei demigod? He was slain shortly after Ursoc, so I imagine his soul was also sacrificed during this time of crisis? It wouldn't surprise me if they casually perm-kill Cenarius, Blizzard has a history of abusing night elf fans.

Cenarius and his fate is as-yet unseen, but it's not looking good if Ursoc could be sacrificed to stem the Drought. Many critical lifeseeds were saved from fallen groves and brought to the center of the Ardenweald to be tended with what anima was left, and Cenarius could be among them. We also have strong indications that the Kaldorei dead of the Fourth War will be somehow released from the Maw, and that could go a long way toward saving the Ancients and Wild Gods still remaining in Ardenweald as well.

[omeomorfismo]

lul, after the previous cinematic where blizz tried to force in our throat "even in scourge v.2 shitty heroism will prevail" now we have that? another "we need to place druid stuff because yes"...
damn, there is a single class with more forced lore content than druids?

thats unfortunate, the first was even good, even with my strong dislike for paladin stuff....

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Cenarius and his fate is as-yet unseen, but it's not looking good if Ursoc could be sacrificed to stem the Drought. Many critical lifeseeds were saved from fallen groves and brought to the center of the Ardenweald to be tended with what anima was left, and Cenarius could be among them. We also have strong indications that the Kaldorei dead of the Fourth War will be somehow released from the Maw, and that could go a long way toward saving the Ancients and Wild Gods still remaining in Ardenweald as well.

He lives and shows up in the Assault on Val'sharah quest.

[Aucald]

I can see souls becoming animals in Ardenweald and then gradually dying as a result of the food chain. The voluntary part seems to be strange though. Wouldn't this require a certain kind of culture in life, or some awareness of the cycle, in order to feel justified? Do the freed Night Elf souls that arrive in Ardenweald say anything about this? Do they expect/accept to become mulch some day? If anything, the Night Elves would have usually avoided the Shadowlands altogether, with their souls fueling their own Ashenvale forest as wisps (perhaps attempting to copy the cycle seen in Ardenweald).

We don't really know the specifics, yet. I assume they're made aware of the possibility as part of their judgment, and given the choice of sorts by the Arbiter or her stewards. Wisps may also be a byproduct of this process, where the bulk of the anima is siphoned away but a tiny core of it remains, resulting in a wisp that can flit between realms or somesuch. There are also wisp-like manifestations in Ardenweald that bear this out, although it's not yet been fully fleshed out.

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He lives and shows up in the Assault on Val'sharah quest.

Ah, I forgot about that completely. So Cenarius is basically alive and not a factor, then. That's good.