Are you tired of borrowed power?

[Very rare pepe]

It's fine if it's done properly. Eye of the beholder obviously. For me Legion borrowed power felt good, BfA did not.

Agreed, I didn't mind Legion's borrowed powers until they went away...

[Overlordd]

Thunderfury was BiS until Black Temple (though that was mostly because of the proc).

I like being a few sole rare items doing the job better than other weapons although the difference coild be seen as abysmal, it still forces people to run older content albeit at a faster time. Maybe this can get boring one day but you're not held back by other tanking weapons. Thunderfury requires work where an entire guild needs to help you out, something that should be taken into notice. Where as another purple weapon might do the job also, maybe not better but it still does its job.

But I don't see why you compare thunderfury towards the borrowed power system. I don't see where that connection is made.

[Aucald]

I'm okay with "borrowed power" systems in their isolated context, but I do agree that with the sense that losing that power all in one fell swoop often feels like a pronounced loss when it comes to transitions, such as to a new expansion. I'm something of an advocate of what I call the "memento system," where the bulk of said borrowed power is removed but minor elements are left in our kit, a memento of the previous story-line, and even if said mementos don't become part of the main APL or rotation for a given class/spec it can always be there for general utility or even just flavor. Sometimes that happens as a matter of course, like when Artifact abilities were baked into classes (e.g. Apocalypse for Unholy DK's) - but it would be better if these were more streamlined and "popped" in the UX, so to speak. Like if they appeared in your spellbook with a special indicator flagged as "Legacy of Legionfall," "Legacy of Argus," "Legacy of Azeroth," etc. etc. This would give a sense that some of that borrowed power was still ours, and might help facilitate a sense of a more gradual upward power curve moving forward.

[Coldkil]

I fully support the "memento system" idea.

What i hate the most from Legion onwards, is that the borrowed power is something that a) defines classes/specs/playstyles and b) it's completely last at the end of the expansion.

First of all, they cannot keep to use these borrowerd powers as staples to make underperforming or less fun classes/specs better. The problem lies in the class design - it MUST be fixed at that level. The fancy new stuff helps giving classes a more rounded toolkit that matches the expansion theme, but that's it. Basically a class should be functional and fun to play without any kind of additional system on top of it.

As for the second point, i totally hate the fact we lose everything after the expansion cycle. We all put effort on keeping our characters on par just to see everything scrapped from our hands. I get that stuff like Legion Artifacts are a lore abomination that shouldn't even have made its appearance - not because they're artifacts, but because the power scale went through the roof with very few plausible way to tune it down again. BfA and Azerite makes just slightly more sense.

Instead, stuff like covenant skills make sense. You pledge with a covenant, but once you're "done with them", it doesn't make sense that they lend you their power. Instead, you have some sort of "memento" which has a meaning since the experience you had is not lost forever but instead it left a permanent thing on your character.

I simply hate the feeling of putting effort for nothing in return, because i already know everything i do is going to matter nothing in the long run.

[Depakote]

Instead of saying that's a blatant lie, how about elaborating how you think it is.

Borrowed powers have been a thing since classic. There have been several abilities, bonuses, etc that we have borrowed and then lost afterwards. This is an ongoing thing they have always done and is nothing new. The only reason people are complaining about it now, is because it is on gear that they work on instead of just windows they look at a few times.

Nope, that started with Legion. There have been abilities that they have pruned and then given back but the powers that we're given now are nothing like we've had in the past. The artifact weapon was nothing like in the past, neither are the necklace of now nor are soulbinds.
Happy?

[Thundering]

it is truly terrible.

[Shaetha]

It seems that ever since Legion, BFA and now Shadowlands, we are getting some form of borrowed power that wont exist next xpac.
(Legendary Items/Artifact passives/actives)
(Azerite,Essences,corruption)
(Covenants, Soul Binds, Conduits)

Im honestly tired of this bullshit
Losing borrowed power is always a shitty feeling
Hopefully, they dial it back a bit next xpac

Nope, but I am tired of people that don't understand it's inevitable to the format.

Stuff has to be added. Stuff has to be removed. Things have to change or there's no reason to play. Players have to get new abilities or it's not an RPG. Abilities have to be removed or the game will become inaccessible to new players. Games that are inaccessible to new players are doomed.

I know people don't like to hear this, but the only solution to your perceived problem is to play a game that doesn't continuously add new DLC instead of making sequels because apparently what you call borrowed power is acceptable if you have to download a new client. Even if literally every game has to do it to some degree unless it's a one off.

[Ryzeth]

By the definition of what "borrowed power" is, it's been in the game since its inception. Especially by your definition of what constitutes it.
Set bonuses are borrowed power, which every expansion had.
Legendaries are borrowed power (by your definition) which every expansion has had.
- Vanilla had Sulfuras, Ateish and Thunderfury.
- TBC has Warglaives and Thori'dal (not counting Kael fight-specific legs obviously).
- Wrath had Val'anyr and Shadowmourne.
- Cata had Tarecgosa and Rogue daggers.
- MoP had cloaks.
- WoD had rings.

It's pretty much been a cornerstone of WoW forever, and it won't go away anytime soon. I'm glad for that, personally, it keeps things different between expansions and allow them to have their own shtick. I'd rather not play during a tier that has set bonuses, OP legendaries, conduits, corruptions, essences and covenants all at once. Not only would that make power creep absolutely fucking absurd, it would also make the grind ridiculous. I'm pretty happy with each expansion having their own 'big powerful thing' though.

[Nyel]

It has just become out of control. It worked in Legion because they fully commited to it. The problems started with the entire removal of those powers. BfA was never able to catch up to previous class design and even with Azerite and Essences lacked the "completeness" of former class design. Shadowlands, once again, is doubling down on that and I can already tell you that it's going to fail in that regard as well (maybe less than BfA though).

The thing is, what are they going to do after Shadowlands? It's obvious that these borrowed powes that are so tied to the Covenants make absolutely no sense without them, e.g. they are being removed in the next expansion (?). This already causes problems and just shows how bad this system in general is.

- - - Updated - - -

By the definition of what "borrowed power" is, it's been in the game since its inception. Especially by your definition of what constitutes it.
Set bonuses are borrowed power, which every expansion had.
Legendaries are borrowed power (by your definition) which every expansion has had.
- Vanilla had Sulfuras, Ateish and Thunderfury.
- TBC has Warglaives and Thori'dal (not counting Kael fight-specific legs obviously).
- Wrath had Val'anyr and Shadowmourne.
- Cata had Tarecgosa and Rogue daggers.
- MoP had cloaks.
- WoD had rings.

It's pretty much been a cornerstone of WoW forever, and it won't go away anytime soon. I'm glad for that, personally, it keeps things different between expansions and allow them to have their own shtick. I'd rather not play during a tier that has set bonuses, OP legendaries, conduits, corruptions, essences and covenants all at once. Not only would that make power creep absolutely fucking absurd, it would also make the grind ridiculous. I'm pretty happy with each expansion having their own 'big powerful thing' though.

Your assumption is false in that regard that class design was never centered around borrowed powers. Class design was always complemented by that. Replacing class design by borrowed powers came first into the game with Legion and continued in BfA and now in Shadowlands.

[Ryzeth]

Your assumption is false in that regard that class design was never centered around borrowed powers. Class design was always complemented by that. Replacing class design by borrowed powers came first into the game with Legion and continued in BfA and now in Shadowlands.

What assumption? I said borrowed power has existed since the game's inception, when it has. That's it. No assumption was made, champ.

[cparle87]

No, and forgive me but I don't know enough about feral to speak on how the spec evolved.
Hypothetically, let's say they added a passive that gave 2combo points for shred when used from stealth or behind. 2 expansions on, they are looking to add a new passive, and the hypothetical passive is pretty popular, so they bake in the abilities of the hypothetical passive. Now Mangle, even though it's named the same, has learned some new tricks, its not the same old ability. And its talent row now has opened up more possibilities for the spec. Thats why adding and pruning is good.

With borrowed power, everything is stripped away, your character returns to a point before they started adventuring for that expansion, and it feels bad. Ultimately the world doesn't feel more dangerous, your character feels weaker.

They've done this. Ravage used to be our super powerful only usable from behind once per fight from stealth move. Later we got passives to reduce its cost and increase its damage. Later ravage's increased damage was baked into shred when used from in stealth. Pounce was the alternative to ravage, forgoing the huge opening hit for a stun and a small bleed. This was later baked into rake.

As for borrowed power, it's always been like that. You level up but your gear doesn't increase at the same rate so your secondaries go down. OP trinkets become less effective then stop working as you ding. Tier bonuses get replaced by greens with gear that outweighs their bonuses.

[trapmaster]

First time i kinda like it then later on, it gets.. meh..... tiring and boring. I want something different XD

[bowchikabow]

I'm a demon hunter... I was birthed in borrowed power. Yes, I hate it. My class breaks without it until they fix our core.

[StillMcfuu]

They've done this. Ravage used to be our super powerful only usable from behind once per fight from stealth move. Later we got passives to reduce its cost and increase its damage. Later ravage's increased damage was baked into shred when used from in stealth. Pounce was the alternative to ravage, forgoing the huge opening hit for a stun and a small bleed. This was later baked into rake.

As for borrowed power, it's always been like that. You level up but your gear doesn't increase at the same rate so your secondaries go down. OP trinkets become less effective then stop working as you ding. Tier bonuses get replaced by greens with gear that outweighs their bonuses.

So you have seen the direct influence on the evolution of classes due to add/prune philosophy. For feral was there an artifact ability that never carried over, or carried over weakly? I know for assa rogue, we lost King's Bane, which would have been nice to continue having, we had it all of Legion, but it was gone in prepatch.

This is the issue, they've gotten the specs to such a basic bitch spot that when everything is stripped away, the specs feel terrible. This is because of borrowed power, and it will never get fixed if this philosophy moves forward. The only specs that brought anything forward through borrowed power are mainly due to the stripped versions being so fundamentally flawed, they barely function (cough ret pally).
Other issues are they are fixing class problems with borrowed power and then not carrying it over. And the borrowed power we do get isn't getting balanced until deep into the expansion.

I disagree that gear is "borrowed power". Gear gets replaced, not to mention as you level your secondary scaling changes, which is why some expansions feel like there is a dip at max level vs the level before in the same gear.
Gear is fundamentally "earned power". It is earned and replaced. Borrowed power is simply given, you get it for existing in the game. Gear is replaced by something better or at the players whim ... Borrowed power abilities are replaced out of player control.

[valax]

It's ok , BUT the baseline class should be enjoyable to play through the leveling process, remember in legion classes being awful to play without the artifact .
The concept is not so distant from tier sets, the class was good and the bonuses made it feel even better , next patch it was a different new power added and we didn't complain

[Lucetia]

Nope, that started with Legion. There have been abilities that they have pruned and then given back but the powers that we're given now are nothing like we've had in the past. The artifact weapon was nothing like in the past, neither are the necklace of now nor are soulbinds.
Happy?

Guess what, your description has still happened ever since classic. Your reasoning says it only counts as borrowed is if it is a new ability, but guess what Azerite Armor, Artifact Weapons, Soulbinds, Convenants have abilities in them that are some variation of our old talents, trinkets, set bonuses, etc.

[Beet]

Most definitely. It’s getting old. I wish they would stop trying to reinvent the wheel so to speak. WoWs most enjoyed/largest growth period was Wrath. Look to that expansion for things that worked is my opinion.

It’s already enough that we get a power loss from having our gear become useless and having to level up. We don’t need this other stuff on top of it IMO

[Nachtigal]

Such linear thinking, to assume the only solution is to go back to how it was before.
We can get new shit without any bar bloat at all.

They don't have to make any new baseline abilities.

They don't have to make any new talent rows.

What they can do is make more talent columns. Expand the talent trees sideways instead of down. No more buttons to press, just more options to choose from, no more losing access to shit we had for 2 years for no reason.

Right so if a new row is vertical as opposed to horizontal, it’s okay? Lol. Borrowed power is good. It keeps the game fresh, while allowing things to come and go. If everything stayed, do you know how much stuff we’d have? Far too much.

[Hero2Zer0]

I'd be completely fine with borrowed power, if they did a good clean up of a lot of talents. Make a lot of the ones that have become go to for most people baseline and add new ones.

[Sarsoman]

I'd be fine with borrowed power as a system each expansion IF Blizzard focused on making actual class changes between each expansion to make them feel new and improved as a priority.