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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    Most of Tolkien fans, like me, keep saying the fellowship was better adaptated then the 2 other movies. I think the same, being the exception the scene where Arwen saves Frodo.
    I just can't get over how they cut out entire chapters. The entire Old Forest segment, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wraiths, finding their weapons. All gone. They escape the Ringwraith on the Brandywine, then they're in Bree, and Strider just hands them weapons to use. Also agree that they erased Glorfindel to buff up Arwen more.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People commonly cite the "duel of the fates" scene as being "a good scene from Episode 1," despite the fight having... absolutely zero narrative heft, us knowing next to nothing about Darth Maul, and Qui-Gon's death not really going on to inform anything in the series from a dramatic angle.

    I think people like flippy light saber fights, Darth Maul's cool design, and choral John Williams scores. But they use that scene to justify all of Episode 1.

    Episode 2 really sees almost... no justification from anyone (even though I'd argue it's really the only prequel where 1) Padme gets to do anything actiony 2) Anakin and Obi-wan work together in earnest and 3) you see anakin actually make progress towards the dark side based on his own feelings in slaughtering the sandpeople for killing his mother,) but I think the sort of "cool scene" people usually go to is... flippy yoda and maybe the arena fight at the end? But again, that's all just CGI spectacle.

    Episode 3 has the fight on Mustafar which... much like Episode 1... people like the choral john williams and flippy lightsaber fight. But you're correct in stating that it really doesn't have much dramatic heft because Obi-wan and Anakin aren't really fleshed out characters within the prequel series. They're actually given very little screen time together, especially in Episode 3.

    And don't get me wrong, I'm partial to sci-fi worldbuilding... I think a lot of the environments and creatures created for the prequels are super cool. But I know that those things do not a good movie make, nor do they excuse the wooden dialogue and pointless scene after pointless scene.



    Episode 9? Most certainly. Episode 8? No.



    And force lightning didn't exist until 10 minutes before the end of Episode 6. Did that bother you? How about Midichlorians? Fuck, in Episode 4 we weren't even really shown that the force could move things beyond vader being able to choke out fools. But hey, top of Episode 5... Luke's pulling a lightsaber out of the snow with his mind!

    Don't act like Star Wars has ever been hard science.

    People that have a problem with the hyperspeed ram or "how could the bombs drop when they're in space?!" in Episode 8 are just looking for things to whine about to justify not liking the movie.

    Zero things are "understood" in Star Wars. It's all made up nonsense. And to say that that nonsense, which has been mutable for the entire course of the series, from the original trilogy through the prequels, is suddenly "inviolate" in the sequels is just silly.



    Again... plot of Episode 8 isn't that hard to follow. The Luke, Rey and Kylo stuff stays really focused. That Luke was not who you expected him to be does not mean the narrative throughline of 8 isn't there. All that means... is that that Luke wasn't the Luke you expected him to be. Hell, Luke goes through an entire arc in Episode 8. You didn't like his characterization, but that doesn't mean he didn't have any

    I have issues with people misattributing their dislike for the way characters were handled or the nitty gritty of made up space-physics with "filmmaking incompetence," because they're not the same thing.

    I DO think that a lot of your criticisms actually apply to Episode 9. And if you want to measure that from an actual objective standpoint, look to the critical reviews of the Last Jedi... which were really quite good, because film critics, people who have looked at and watched hundreds of films that aren't just star wars in an attempt to appreciate the craft of film in general assessed the film as a film and found it competently made, versus critical reviews of Rise of Skywalker, which were really quite poor because film critics assessed the film as a film and found it quite incompetently made.

    If anyone fancies themself a judge of film or a person with creative story ambitions, I'd advise an appreciation of the difference. It doesn't mean you have to like Episode 8 at all, but understanding your reasons for actually disliking it instead of blaming it on things that weren't the issues at hand is important.

    And yes, I remember people making the dumbass excuse that Disney must have paid critics to like Episode 8 or that critics were too "afraid" to speak out against Episode 8 and in reality hated it but were afraid some SJW cancel cult would come after them. Which is stupid, especially considering the fact that critics rightly derided Episode 9 anyway.

    Maybe, instead of some weird conspiracy, Episode 8 is actually a competently made movie that didn't match up with what people wanted in their heads and they were disappointed, and Episode 9 was actually an incompetently made movie because... it was an incompetently made movie. As I said, an appreciation of that difference is important.
    No its not. The whole side plot to find a single individual who is the only hacker? Oh wait we find random dude 47 in the prison who can do it (also how does Maz Kanata know someone who can handle this, the ONLY person apparently, when it is a new tech, guess she hides it next to her randomly collected lightsaber).

    The light speed ram? Yeah for some reason no one has done it before though it allows a much smaller ship to destroy star destroyers and shit, a maneuver you could program bots to try, yeah sure some fail, but if you send 1000s of X wings to kill a few destroyers seems like a win to me.

    The whole terrible fucking chase sequence, where no one on the empire thinks to jump ahead and stop them, so we get this dumb long chase sequence in space.

    The whole fucking AWFUL humor with Luke was terrible, the fact that Snoke can apparently manipulate Kylo into dark enough thoughts that Luke strikes at Kylo from across the fucking galaxy (like seriously, we now have the ability to corrupt force padawans from across the galaxy, why the fuck didn't Palpatine do this, oh wait he had to slowly in person corrupt Anakin along with circumstances, but apparently in this trilogy all the powers are bumped up to 34).

    The terrible and forced as fuck love will win by Rose after she somehow catches Finn who is maxing out his speeder after falling behind him leading to a terrible kiss, and some bullshit ass pull save, UGH. The fact that they have bb-8 act drunk once he puts a box on, yet somehow saves the crew half a dozen times across the movie.

    The terrible opening bombing run that uses gravity, IN SPACE.

    The Atrocity that is the leading by Holdo. The Leia force pull myself to safety from space after an explosion.

    Rei showing another deus ex machina (after mind controlling someone in Episode 7 with 0 Jedi training) manages to lift dozens of boulders after minor training with Luke (good thing we had episode 5 show him struggle with one rock while training with Yoda).

    I could go on, but the movie was not worth me writing more even, it tried so hard to be edgy by "breaking out expectations" which I guess worked, because I expected a somewhat boring but coherent story I could enjoy, but instead I got served a giant pile of shit. I won't defend the prequels, and the original had its issues sure, but the originals were still forming the universe, so new things were to be expected. Over half a dozen movies, hundreds of books, probably a hundred games, and so much more story/lore later I expect to have most things firmly set, not new, bad, bullshit being thrown at me. Also since you dont want to add me to the ignore list I'll add you.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2020-09-09 at 06:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  3. #83
    Oh god every thread has to turn into a star wars nerd off.

    Its an over hyped/nostalgia series with barely any decent films when you consider maybe 3 are "decent"(a new hope, empire strikes back, rogue one) and they have over 10 films. Over rated garbage. Im pretty sure fast and furious has a better ratio.
    Last edited by Volatilis; 2020-09-09 at 08:22 AM.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I just can't get over how they cut out entire chapters. The entire Old Forest segment, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wraiths, finding their weapons. All gone. They escape the Ringwraith on the Brandywine, then they're in Bree, and Strider just hands them weapons to use. Also agree that they erased Glorfindel to buff up Arwen more.
    As much as I would have loved to have seen all of that in Fellowship...I do have to get up from the cinema seat and pee sometime.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Avengers End Game was MUCH better than w/e the fuck that other movie was that had no cohesion at all and randomly switched scenes to give different Marvel casts screen time. It's literally a 180 turn around in the way the story was told, I was surprised.
    I don't agree with this. Infinity War is a great movie. There is certainly a lot of perspective switching, but I think that you're thinking of the avengers as the main characters. This isn't really the case. Thanos is the main character of Infinity War. He's the one whose quest we follow, he's the one who has to make sacrifices to do what he needs to do, he achieves his goal at the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The original Jurassic park is... so much better than Jurassic world. Better dialogue, better plot, better acted, better directed, better sets and, weirdly... yeah, better cgi. In 1993.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You’d have a better cinematic experience watching Jurassic park four times rather than any of its four sequels.



    As for the subject at hand... reboot-wise, fury road is the best mad max film.

    Prequel and sequel wise, People often say that The Godfather part 2 is better than the first... I’d say they’re about equal.

    Many of the avengers movies (with the exception of iron man) have sequels better than their original debut film. Winter soldier is better than first avenger, ragnarok is better than Thor, etc.

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    I’d say rogue nation, ghost protocol and fallout were all solid films.




    I’d say pretty much every episode of Star Wars was better than the prequels. Any of them.

    Yes, including the sequels.

    If we didn’t have the narrative through line of knowing anakin was going to become Darth Vader... you’d sit through that and go “what the hell was that?”

    All Episode 3 has going for it is one 15 minute fight on a lava planet. That’s it, and that’s all people remember beside the memes. One 15 minute cgi video game fight does not a compelling film make.
    Episode 1 is my favorite still followed by ROS. I cant watch the originals they are just too bad and I cant get into them.

  7. #87
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No its not. The whole side plot to find a single individual who is the only hacker? Oh wait we find random dude 47 in the prison who can do it (also how does Maz Kanata know someone who can handle this, the ONLY person apparently, when it is a new tech, guess she hides it next to her randomly collected lightsaber).
    That's the point. They didn't find the right guy, and they got screwed over for it. Their whole B-story plotline in episode 8 is "flying by the seat of your pants is a bad idea."

    And I'm going to start off by saying again... all of this minutia about "Well why did this made-up science fiction nonsense thing we never heard of not appear before in a universe made up of made-up science fiction nonsense before?" is just... the dumbest argument.

    None of this is real. None of it is governed by concrete rules. It never has been.

    The light speed ram? Yeah for some reason no one has done it before though it allows a much smaller ship to destroy star destroyers and shit, a maneuver you could program bots to try, yeah sure some fail, but if you send 1000s of X wings to kill a few destroyers seems like a win to me.
    Except you just lost thousands of X-wings to take out a few star destroyers.

    Hey, did the Japanese win World War 2 by kamikazing their planes into Allied ships? No? Maybe because it's not usually a good idea.

    They didn't even destroy the Radus with the lightspeed jump, they just cut one of its wings off. And they lost their largest command ship to do just that.

    The whole terrible fucking chase sequence, where no one on the empire thinks to jump ahead and stop them, so we get this dumb long chase sequence in space.
    The chase is a framing device, plain and simple.

    The chase... is not... important. You want to justify it? The first order was toying with them. Snoke was leveraging their peril to drive Rey to come back. Like Palpatine did in Episode 6 with Luke.

    The whole fucking AWFUL humor with Luke was terrible,
    Yes and the pig people playing keepaway with C-3P0's head in Empire was just the height of comedy.

    the fact that Snoke can apparently manipulate Kylo into dark enough thoughts that Luke strikes at Kylo from across the fucking galaxy (like seriously, we now have the ability to corrupt force padawans from across the galaxy, why the fuck didn't Palpatine do this, oh wait he had to slowly in person corrupt Anakin along with circumstances, but apparently in this trilogy all the powers are bumped up to 34).
    I don't know, what law in the star wars universe says that can't be done? Is Palpatine the end-all of dark side powers? If it didn't happen in the 20 minutes of screentime palpatine got in the original trilogy, it just isn't possible?

    I'm sorry, do you have some prescient understanding of this made up magical force or a way to apply real world logic to it? Because I'm pretty sure it's made up magic.

    The terrible and forced as fuck love will win by Rose after she somehow catches Finn who is maxing out his speeder after falling behind him leading to a terrible kiss, and some bullshit ass pull save, UGH.
    that... was the point... of the scene...

    The fact that they have bb-8 act drunk once he puts a box on, yet somehow saves the crew half a dozen times across the movie.
    And the only reason that our heroes didn't get eaten by Ewoks in Episode 6 is that they thought C3P0 was a god.

    The terrible opening bombing run that uses gravity, IN SPACE.
    How did the TIE bombers drop bombs on the asteroids in Empire strikes back? Apparently you need every minute detail explained to you... Did I miss the reams of dialogue where imperial engineers described the working of the TIE bombers that they gave you so you felt that they adequately described the machinations of a pissant detail in a spacewizard movie?

    And while we're at it how is there sound in space?

    Dear god are you reaching. And also... not remembering the actual movies, apparently.

    The Atrocity that is the leading by Holdo. The Leia force pull myself to safety from space after an explosion.
    Holdo's leadership was to show that, basically, Poe fucked everything up by trying to go gung-ho and ripshot. Which... he, Finn and Rose basically did.

    Rei showing another deus ex machina (after mind controlling someone in Episode 7 with 0 Jedi training) manages to lift dozens of boulders after minor training with Luke (good thing we had episode 5 show him struggle with one rock while training with Yoda).
    ...so you wanted to watch Rey just go through the same training Luke did?

    Her "learning to use the force" was not the point of her character. Finding her place in the force was.

    And let me be clear... Episode 9 did not, in any way, pay these things off. But that doesn't mean they don't exist in Episode 8.

    I could go on, but the movie was not worth me writing more even, it tried so hard to be edgy by "breaking out expectations" which I guess worked, because I expected a somewhat boring but coherent story I could enjoy, but instead I got served a giant pile of shit. I won't defend the prequels, and the original had its issues sure, but the originals were still forming the universe, so new things were to be expected. Over half a dozen movies, hundreds of books, probably a hundred games, and so much more story/lore later I expect to have most things firmly set, not new, bad, bullshit being thrown at me.

    Also since you dont want to add me to the ignore list I'll add you.
    Can't handle criticism of his critique.

    A real class act.

    And it's just as I said. It's just criticism of nonsense space magic and made up science fiction rules and their application. not any actual assessment of the film or actors... as a film, or in acting.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-09-09 at 11:04 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  8. #88
    Can we stop talking about Star Wars please?

    "Would you please let me join your p-p-party?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    As much as I would have loved to have seen all of that in Fellowship...I do have to get up from the cinema seat and pee sometime.
    They could've easily made it a quartet. First part ends say with Gandal's fall. Second part picks up at Lothlorien through Helm's Deep. Third part fall of Isengard through Frodo's poisoning. Final part from there through Scouring of Shire. I felt sad they cut that part out too. You got to see all the character development Sam, Merry, and Pippin got running Saruman out of the Shire.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  10. #90
    Pfft the chase scene in TLJ was not important?
    And yet important enough to bore us silly for much of the movie.
    I'm sorry but to me, TLJ was the worst in the whole franchise.
    I mean after I defended TFA for a hopeful build-up to some sequel worthy near "Empire Strikes Back" level, to say I was disappointed with the rubbish that was presented is an understatement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    They could've easily made it a quartet. First part ends say with Gandal's fall. Second part picks up at Lothlorien through Helm's Deep. Third part fall of Isengard through Frodo's poisoning. Final part from there through Scouring of Shire. I felt sad they cut that part out too. You got to see all the character development Sam, Merry, and Pippin got running Saruman out of the Shire.
    I like your thinking!
    I would not have any issue breaking things up for the sake of story and characterization.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Pfft the chase scene in TLJ was not important?
    And yet important enough to bore us silly for much of the movie.
    I'm sorry but to me, TLJ was the worst in the whole franchise.
    I mean after I defended TFA for a hopeful build-up to some sequel worthy near "Empire Strikes Back" level, to say I was disappointed with the rubbish that was presented is an understatement.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I like your thinking!
    I would not have any issue breaking things up for the sake of story and characterization.
    Scouring of the Shire is actually one of my favorite parts. Cause you actually get to see the Hobbits in action without them being overshadowed by awsome by Gandalf or Aragorn. They each became skilled warriors who saved their homes with their own strength and wit, and their badass boasts too. Like someone insults "some new king down south" and Pippin verbally smacks him down as a knight of Gondor. Merry had a similar thing due to his friendship with Theoden.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Episode 2 really sees almost... no justification from anyone (even though I'd argue it's really the only prequel where 1) Padme gets to do anything actiony 2) Anakin and Obi-wan work together in earnest and 3) you see anakin actually make progress towards the dark side based on his own feelings in slaughtering the sandpeople for killing his mother,) but I think the sort of "cool scene" people usually go to is... flippy yoda and maybe the arena fight at the end? But again, that's all just CGI spectacle.
    Episode 2 gave us the Techno Union, so all is forgiven.


  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    I always groan at Terminator 2 being mentioned, the first Terminator is so much better, I don't know what goes on in people's heads.
    I enjoyed both.

    I would instead say that Terminator 2 is the best of example of throwing lots of money to make a sequel of a successful movie made on a small budget, and actually get a good result!

    Hmm...
    Is "300" classified as a remake of "The 300 Spartans"? If so, I would nominate that as answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utinil View Post
    Not even close. Fury Road had nothing going for it except action, no decent plot. Thunderdome and Road Warrior are both miles ahead of it.
    Well, so two or three good sequels to the original "Mad Max".

  14. #94
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    Star Wars Prequels better than the original trillogy

    Fight me
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I just can't get over how they cut out entire chapters. The entire Old Forest segment, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wraiths, finding their weapons. All gone. They escape the Ringwraith on the Brandywine, then they're in Bree, and Strider just hands them weapons to use. Also agree that they erased Glorfindel to buff up Arwen more.
    For some reason, the segments that involve Tom Bombadil just seem like Tolkien's way to break the meta early on to include a non-serious but powerful character that I do believe is also included in other Tolkien works.

    While I am disappointed in Tom not being in movie, I am not that bothered by it either.

    One thing, a small thing I wish they kept in the movie was Strider's response to Frodo's quip about an agent of the enemy looking fair but feel foul.

    "So you think I look foul but feel fair, is that it?" I think is what he had said.

    It's a small thing, but I think it speaks to Strider/Aragorn to show that he is not this super serious grimdark person most people take him for.

    I think this response was in that old animated adaptation.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post
    For some reason, the segments that involve Tom Bombadil just seem like Tolkien's way to break the meta early on to include a non-serious but powerful character that I do believe is also included in other Tolkien works.

    While I am disappointed in Tom not being in movie, I am not that bothered by it either.

    One thing, a small thing I wish they kept in the movie was Strider's response to Frodo's quip about an agent of the enemy looking fair but feel foul.

    "So you think I look foul but feel fair, is that it?" I think is what he had said.

    It's a small thing, but I think it speaks to Strider/Aragorn to show that he is not this super serious grimdark person most people take him for.

    I think this response was in that old animated adaptation.
    Part of it was I think they focused too much on Sauron and the be-all end-all evil force. Morgoth was only vaguely referred to at the Council of Elrond. Tom Bombadil was also mentioned there in the books as a possible guardian for the ring, that was cut too. There was no mention of the "things deeper and darker than Sauron that even he knew not" and no exposition as to Shelob's backstory. Anything bigger and older than Sauron was cut.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    All Episode 3 has going for it is one 15 minute fight on a lava planet. That’s it, and that’s all people remember beside the memes. One 15 minute cgi video game fight does not a compelling film make.
    Pretty much. It was on TV a few months back so I decided to watch it again, well I tried to anyway; the first 30 minutes or so is absolutely terrible, and it doesn't get much better until way into the final act.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I just can't get over how they cut out entire chapters. The entire Old Forest segment, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wraiths, finding their weapons. All gone. They escape the Ringwraith on the Brandywine, then they're in Bree, and Strider just hands them weapons to use. Also agree that they erased Glorfindel to buff up Arwen more.
    I never had a problem with that. Tom Bombadil is a filler character that adds nothing to the plot, and Gandalf literally says so at the Council in the books. Same with the Wild Men in Return of the King, when re-reading them I often end up skipping these chapters because they serve no purpose whatsoever. Yes, yes, world-building, but good world-building is woven into the narrative, it doesn't bring it to a screeching halt so Tolkien can shoe-horn his childhood doll into his seminal fantasy series and throw the lyrics of silly songs we don't know the beat of at us.

    The only part I wish they didn't cut was the Scouring of the Shire, that was actually important and its absence makes the end of RotK feel even longer. I get that as the final threat of an epic trilogy, a haggard old man leading a bunch of thugs is not comparable to the armies of Mordor, but the point is that this time the Hobbits solve the matter themselves, and it shows how each of the 4 have grown from their journey.

    As for my contribution to this thread, I'd say that I liked Blade Runner 2049 better than the original, even if not by much. It's like the difference between my esteem of Godfather parts 1 and 2; both are great, the sequel is just slightly better in my opinion.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by kuhntasmash View Post
    Charlie in the chocolate factory was better than Willy wonka and the chocolate factory.
    You can't be serious? The depp version is absolutely terrible. Definitely in my top 5 of worst films I've seen.

    OT: Aliens >> Alien.

  20. #100
    The Gods Must be Crazy 2. But only by a little bit.

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