Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Wuusah]

What average eSport? MDI compares to shit all. There's more viewership for RTWF and some balding nerd who loves to show off his mounts.

The community certainly doesn't recognize M+ as high end as they just don't do it. Everyone's busy doing 15+ once a week and logging off for the rest. There's no motives to go do anything above 15+.

Saying M+ is high end is like saying removing some pieces of armour to lower your ilvl then running normal Uldir is high end. You're just fighting with bigger numbers, that's literally all it is.

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Lmao. Because physically training to break world record running speeds = popping stealth pots and CDs to avoid an entire dungeon and then brute forcing boss mechanics in a video game, right?

Listen. M+ and the IO side of the community is nothing but overglorified LFR trash. Shit gets dumped on by proper players in guilds daily. Keep on denying those pugs in hopes of finding a really high IO score popping up lmao

If it’s so easy then why don’t you do it yourself? It’s just bigger numbers right? You could easily prove your point by doing it yourself.

[Rubim]

Glad to know you're unaware of how much gold, silver and bronze medalists earn alongside their medals.

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Yea it does? Even if it had rewards, it still wouldn't be high end. Again, it is quite literally just a speed run.

It's comparable to speedrunning an RPG game with your armour and weapons off to artificially inflate damage received and reduce damage done. It's fake difficulty. It's still the same game, just higher numbers.

People criticize the hardmodes in other games for just being number inflators, rather than adding in actual difficulty mechanics.

How is M+ high end? All you've done was go "NUH UH YOU RONK" and insult me lol

Is that really what's considered high end by those who have spent 50% of their /played in a battle pet dungeon?

Also as a side note.. Not even Blizz watches MDI. C'mon.

The argument about being Bigger Number is not high end makes me think you dont play this game at all.

Most Mythic Raiding is a number issue, do we bring another healer? When do we use cooldowns to deal with this mechanic now that it deals X amount of damage? How do we survive Y skill now?

Same thing applies to Mythic+, the numbers are bigger, means that a cast that you could let it go can probabbly one shot you now.

TLDR: Bigger numbers = less mistakes you can do.

[Tziva]

Guys, can we please stop the tangent about what constitutes high end / olympic athlete tangent. It's not relevant and is derailing discussion.

Thanks.

[ClassicPeon]

What average eSport? MDI compares to shit all. There's more viewership for RTWF and some balding nerd who loves to show off his mounts.

The community certainly doesn't recognize M+ as high end as they just don't do it. Everyone's busy doing 15+ once a week and logging off for the rest. There's no motives to go do anything above 15+.

Saying M+ is high end is like saying removing some pieces of armour to lower your ilvl then running normal Uldir is high end. You're just fighting with bigger numbers, that's literally all it is.

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Lmao. Because physically training to break world record running speeds = popping stealth pots and CDs to avoid an entire dungeon and then brute forcing boss mechanics in a video game, right?

Listen. M+ and the IO side of the community is nothing but overglorified LFR trash. Shit gets dumped on by proper players in guilds daily. Keep on denying those pugs in hopes of finding a really high IO score popping up lmao

There isnt much point in arguing against your "facts" because they are all based on the same premise - "dude, trust me". You have nothing to back what you say up with, at the same time you are degrading people left and right for no discernable reason at all.

Like whats the point in degrading Asmon? He has literally nothing to do with this?

There is noone here being obtuse or rude towards you. Why are you so hostile? I cant imagine the way you type here is the way you speak normally so the only logical conclusion to me, is that something made you angry, most likely to do with m+ or Raider.Io.

[FiveDkp]

If it isn't evident enough. Stardrift is a very bitter person who seemingly wishes to devalue any achievement bar his own.

The circular argument even if you provide proof that people have to practice for it quite a lot and experiment a lot of different paths will always be the same. IT IS JUST MOAR NUMBARZ BRO, OH JUST A STEALTH POT SO EZ, GET A GILD, MAEKZ IT SO MUCH EASIER etc.

I mean he has thrown insults at Asmongold so obviously has a massive bone to pick with him given his success (and he devalues his achievements too)

Just roll your eyes, ignore the guy and move on.

[Stardrift]

The same old mechanics don't play the same at higher key levels, how you approach some, or rather how seriously you need to take them changes as it gets higher. Even still, this is a poor argument, there clearly is high end M+. To try to assert that it doesn't exist, then to offer such a poor argument in favour of this assertion isn't a good look.

Yea, being forced to not brute force the mechanics sure are brand new mechanics, hey?

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If it’s so easy then why don’t you do it yourself? It’s just bigger numbers right? You could easily prove your point by doing it yourself.

Like I said, no reward. No achievements, no nothing.

M+ is piss poor content and shouldn't be in the game. It nullifies the rest of the game's content by having all the BIS gear and easy to obtain mythic raid ilvl gear.

It boils down to doing +15 for the weekly chest then trying to push against big numbers for fun. What about that is high end/hardcore?

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The argument about being Bigger Number is not high end makes me think you dont play this game at all.

Most Mythic Raiding is a number issue, do we bring another healer? When do we use cooldowns to deal with this mechanic now that it deals X amount of damage? How do we survive Y skill now?

Same thing applies to Mythic+, the numbers are bigger, means that a cast that you could let it go can probabbly one shot you now.

TLDR: Bigger numbers = less mistakes you can do.

Congrats, you've devolved to pretending new mechanics aren't introduced to mythic raid difficulties.



But, to all of you, this is besides the point. The topic is about raider IO, and my point along side many is that IO is nothing more than a way for people to beg for carries. There is no other purpose behind it.

Want to get good? Drop that shit and find a guild, show them you're not some overglorified LFR hero (this is most likely where you will fail) and get accepted into their M+ runs.

[Bozey17]

You have 2 opposing problems, how do you solve both of them so that both parties are satisfied?

1. Players want to play m+ but cant because they are being gatekeeped.

2. Players should have the ability to pick and choose who they invite into their groups, nobody likes playing with people who cant pull their weight.

Personally I think solo m+ is the least disruptive answer, that way people who fall into the first category can go solo and still get to experience the game. IDC about how it's implemented the details don't matter so long as it gives the same rewards and difficulty is tuned the same or greater than the multiplayer equivalent. Meanwhile, those who who fall into category 2 don't need to solo if they don't want to too so they can continue to play how they always do.

Also WoW has a lack of high end solo content especially when it comes to gear progression, this is a mmorpg not a co-op game, there is a difference. It's okay for mmorpgs to have difficult, challenging, rewarding and progression based end game activities for solo players.

I see requests like this get backlash from a lot of people who seem to think anything solo = bad which is just sad because you cant have it both ways. If your not willing to play with others and invite low io into your group then you should have no issues with a solo environment for those "bad" players to complete m+ on their own. How does it affect you? You can't say "this is mmo solo bad" when you werent even going to invite or play with these players in the first place. Seems to me like you people are more concerned about trying to control who gets gear and who gets to play the game rather than the game itself.

[Wuusah]

But, to all of you, this is besides the point. The topic is about raider IO, and my point along side many is that IO is nothing more than a way for people to beg for carries. There is no other purpose behind it.

Want to get good? Drop that shit and find a guild, show them you're not some overglorified LFR hero (this is most likely where you will fail) and get accepted into their M+ runs.

It’s pretty much usually exactly the other way round. Rio prevents people from begging for carries because you need to work for your own score. You need to grind that number up by pushing all keys from all dungeons to +15 or even higher. Nobody will take you if your score is bad because they don’t want to carry your sorry ass.
And if someone starts a group and requires a too high score, then the group will usually never reach 5 players.
It’s not so difficult to get a free carry in a guild or with friends. You just say “I didn’t do my +15 this week yet, can someone help me with that” and a friendly guild will help.

So you have it completely backwards. Somehow working your way up and pushing your own score higher is being an “LFR hero” in your eyes when the real LFR heroes take advantage of their guild to get content done

[Kaver]

1. Players want to play m+ but cant because they are being gatekeeped.

This is an imaginary problem. Everyone has their own key and the ability to make a group. People are just too lazy or whatever to do it. So they rather have other people do the job and then just join in. Like "if you set everything up for the party I'll stop by later and drink the beers."

People say making a group is "hard". But it's the same for everyone. Someone has to do it. The problem is the skewed ratio between dps and tanks in the game. Not all dps are going to be able to join a group at one given moment because there are not enough tanks for that to happen. And this has nothing to do with RIO.

[T-34]

1. Players want to play m+ but cant because they are being gatekeeped.

There is no such thing as "gate-keeping" in WoW. Everybody has the same right and possibilities to make a group and invite people to do all the content in the game.

[Kaver]

There's a lot of tanks in the game but a lot of them don't play with pugs.

Haha yes there are a lot of tanks in the game. But there are more dps

[ID811717]

There's a lot of tanks in the game but a lot of them don't play with pugs.

Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

Tanks: 89,161
Healers: 102,729
Damage dealers: 308,463

For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.

[Wuusah]

Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

Tanks: 89,161
Healers: 102,729
Damage dealers: 308,463

For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.

that's the point Rung made. In pugs you don't have this ratio. A significant amount of tanks doesn't pug much. There isn't really that big of a tank scarcity in WoW. There just is a tank scarcity in world of pugcraft. And anyone who tanked in pugs knows why.

[Firebert]

Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

Tanks: 89,161
Healers: 102,729
Damage dealers: 308,463

For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.

That's really cool.

If you +2 each dungeon, the score would be 240 with everything just on time:
685,581 tanks at 240.0 or above
722,585 healers at 240.0 or above
2,305,764 DPS at 240.0 or above

Ratio 1:1.05:3.36

This does mean if every tank is in a group, 37k healers (5%) and 250k DPS (10%) are in the cold...

For all registered Raider.IO users, it's 1,144,740 : 1,136,312 : 3,753,599, or 1:0.99:3.27.

[Twdft]

For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.

raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.

A week has only so much hours and over hundreds of thousands of players actual playtime should even out. The only way tanks go below their 20% ratio is when they actual play longer/more dungeons than healers and dps.

[Kaver]

raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.

Haha yeah this should be pretty obvious to everyone. Unless people are running without a tank in some groups which I don't think happen very often in BFA :P

I guess not all people have learned to think before they talk.

[Alroxas]

Don't be sympathetic to bad/unlucky people who are behind the curve and scared of social situations: problem solved!

I'm not interested in playing with anyone who gets themselves into pug hell land for any reason. Why should I be?

Maybe because one day, you might find yourself there. Real life happens and when that changes the availability and dedication a player may have towards WoW, they may find themselves in pug hell one day.

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2 parts of this idea are easily screwed. Have a premade...

And let me stop you right there. As soon as you go into a premade group then the r.io (or any future substitute) goes out the window. There's no need for it because you already know the group members and (more importantly) have some form of advanced comms beyond typing in chat. We're talking about a system for PuGs where you don't know the other player directly so you need some sort of metric to judge how "well" they play. Not just experience (which is helpful) but class knowledge + execution of said knowledge.

If you have a premade group, r.io is mostly irrelevant. You don't care about score because you know the other players.



And lastly, go look at the other thread in this forum
Can IO ratings be trusted if people are able to buy runs skewing its accuracy.

[Bloodyleech]

And let me stop you right there. As soon as you go into a premade group then the r.io (or any future substitute) goes out the window. There's no need for it because you already know the group members and (more importantly) have some form of advanced comms beyond typing in chat. We're talking about a system for PuGs where you don't know the other player directly so you need some sort of metric to judge how "well" they play. Not just experience (which is helpful) but class knowledge + execution of said knowledge.

If you have a premade group, r.io is mostly irrelevant. You don't care about score because you know the other players.



And lastly, go look at the other thread in this forum
Can IO ratings be trusted if people are able to buy runs skewing its accuracy.

But it's the same for your system. Your system is working EXACTLY the same as Rio, just with different rules. Both systems can be screwed easily.
Rio is imo the better one, as you mostly need player experience depending on dungeon. It's really hard to rate someone depending on the things he does in a run (like kicking, ccing, kiting (in what way would you be able to score this?)...). Each run you do in a pug is always different. Some runs got people that kick more (you get less score), some do not kick at all (you get more score), some consist of half-premades which ruin your score completely.

Yeah, in a premade Rio is not relevant. In a pug Rio is relevant, as you have an easy way to judge someone.
Your system COULD be a better, but it has to many variables that can screw it. (Rio got exactly one, yours way more)
Rio CAN be screwed, too, but it is very expensive and if you are experienced you see someone that got boosted.

Oh, I'm pro-boosting. #1 I boost myself #2 I instantly see boosted people, so they don't bother me #3 It's a service, like trading, everyone can do with their gold whatever they want to do. No, I do not have a premade.

[BeepBoo]

Maybe because one day, you might find yourself there. Real life happens and when that changes the availability and dedication a player may have towards WoW, they may find themselves in pug hell one day.

My positions and heartlessness towards circumstance and shortcomings of any kind don't magically just change because it becomes a personal issue for me. I have integrity. If I ever found myself in a situation where I couldn't get out of the game what I wanted for what I was willing to put in, I'd quit. Hey! look at that, I did.

[ID811717]

2k+: 1/1.15/3.45 (tanks: 89,161, healers: 102,729, damage dealers: 308,463) from my earlier post
3k+: 1/1.07/3.41 (tanks: 15,916, healers: 17,126, damage dealers: 54,347)
4k+: 1/1.05/3.35 (tanks: 3091, healers: 3263, damage dealers: 10,380)
5k+: 1/1.07/3.25 (tanks: 586, healers: 632, damage dealers: 1909)
6k+: 1/1/3.26 (tanks: 92, healers: 92, damage dealers: 300)
7k+: 1/1/3 (tanks: 9, healers: 9, damage dealers: 27)

that's the point Rung made. In pugs you don't have this ratio. A significant amount of tanks doesn't pug much. There isn't really that big of a tank scarcity in WoW. There just is a tank scarcity in world of pugcraft. And anyone who tanked in pugs knows why.

We have no way to tell to what extent your claim is true [in different score brackets]... But the more tanks play in premades only, the more it exacerbates the above tank/healer/DPS ratios.

For the sake of an example, let's assume that 50% of tanks from 2k+ score bracket play in premade-only groups. Then the ratio in the pug world becomes 44,580/58,148/174,720, or 1/1.3/3.91. That would mean that the pug world has roughly 4 damage dealers for each tank... So for each group inside a dungeon there is one damage dealer stuck not being able to find a group for a long time (not sure if that would be the average duration of one dungeon run, or half of that).

raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.

The 1/1/3 ratio is expected in a world where everyone runs only in premades. (This in particular applies to 7k+ score bracket.)

On the other hand, if we assumed that M+ is run only in pug groups, and that each damage dealer has an equal chance of getting invited in the score-appropriate LFG group, then a fraction of damage dealers will have to sit out at all times, whereas all tanks are always busy. Then the tank vs. damage dealer ratio would be reflected above.

Now the lines between premades and pugs are blurred, so the above ratios show the most optimistic possible outlook at the M+ world (because the higher is the number of premade-only players, the worse it reflects on the shortage of tanks in the pug world).

A week has only so much hours and over hundreds of thousands of players actual playtime should even out. The only way tanks go below their 20% ratio is when they actual play longer/more dungeons than healers and dps.

Are you speaking about the playtime inside M+ dungeons, or about the overall playtime?

I assume you speak about the overall playtime. But tanks tend to get instant-invites into M+ groups (not every group will instant invite you, but if you generously apply to multiple groups at a time, there will be one group that does). Whereas damage dealers tend to suffer through many rejections before getting an invite. Then, say, an average tank can play 3h per evening and spend 100% of that time in M+ dungeons, whereas an average damage dealer would likewise play 3h per evening (you implied the actual playtime evens out), but spend 65% of that time in dungeons and 35% of that time searching for groups in the LFG tool. This is because there are more damage dealers than tanks, so at any point a fraction of them will have to sit out.

The tanks do spend a larger fraction of their dungeon-dedicated time actually being able to run dungeons.

Haha yeah this should be pretty obvious to everyone. Unless people are running without a tank in some groups which I don't think happen very often in BFA :P

I guess not all people have learned to think before they talk.

Funny how your remark now reflects on your own (in)ability to think before talking.

However, there is nothing bad about taking chances and being wrong. Especially when it comes to fostering a discussion. Most of the innovation and research happens in groups, whereas people who try to lock themselves up in an attic until they are 100% sure about everything they are going to say - tend to fail. The "think before talk" mantra is mostly applicable to emotional or impulsive outbursts that are inherently destructive, as opposed to well-meaning open-ended discussion. Do not be afraid to speak.