Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[SirCowdog]

Pugs that don't manage to down HC bosses, don't fail on 5-10% DPS margins on some members. They fail because they wipe on mechanics.

Most of the guys pugging HC are very very far from optimal in all senses of the word to begin with, but if they manage to somehow drag themselves through that one or two critical mechanics per average boss - it dies.

It's really just that - HC is not some DPS race tuning, it's mostly down to not fucking up core mechanics of encounter.

I have to disagree. Even in organized raiding, the number of wipes I've personally seen on progression, that land just short of 5% or less boss health, is a lot.

And the number of PUGs Ive personally seen disintegrate in less than 5 pulls due to poor DPS is astoundingly high. The number of people kicked for low DPS or bad heals or weak tanking is higher.

I'm not saying PUGs cant get it done. Just that it isn't as frequent as you make it sound.

[Rageonit]

Pugs clear content by over gearing / overpowering it, they're a terrible example for your argument here if you're trying to dispute that the player power attached to this choice matters for your average player. Your example is the epitome of my argument.

I'm sorry, but you are the one spouting ridiculous nonsense. What is gear if not another source of player power, just like talents, azerite power, conduits or covenant abilities? Covenant choice won't matter for most of your average guilds exactly for that reason: the game has numerous sources of player power, and the leeway given on lower levels of play is big enough to allow you to make up for your 5% worse Covenant ability with talents, or gear, or anything else. It's not like said gear drops for said PUGs from the sky - they still need to kill bosses to get it. Killing previous tier bosses with current tier items - yeah, that'd be overgearing. But killing current tier bosses thanks to current tier loot is overgearing? Huh. What an outlandish idea.

I have to disagree. Even in organized raiding, the number of wipes I've personally seen on progression, that land just short of 5% or less boss health, is a lot.

But why is this even an argument? Why, in your skill-based game, where mastering the encounter is the key to victory, is it suddenly so bad that people wipe numerous times on 5%? Don't you see that what you're arguing here is: "If people wipe on 5%, we need to give them more passive DPS". How is that good to anyone? What you should be asking instead is: "Okay, do they wipe on 5%, because they lack passive damage, or because they aren't doing the mechanics properly?" And in a heroic raid, it's almost always the latter. Just because the leeway is so big. No matter how sub-optimal your build is, if you play it correctly, and if you do the mechanics correctly, the boss will fall down. Even the PUGs that kill bosses make numerous mistakes during the encounter - but again, the leeway is so big you can still recover. The only thing that player power changes here is that, with more player power, you have more room for mistakes - and with less player power, you need to be better with mechanics. That's why PUGs often "overgear" it (have higher average item level than an organized run) - because PUGs make a lot of mistakes. But that doesn't mean players in those PUGs need high item level (or a better Covenant ability, for that matter); they need to get better, only they often don't have the patience.

[kaminaris]

I have to disagree. Even in organized raiding, the number of wipes I've personally seen on progression, that land just short of 5% or less boss health, is a lot.

And the number of PUGs Ive personally seen disintegrate in less than 5 pulls due to poor DPS is astoundingly high. The number of people kicked for low DPS or bad heals or weak tanking is higher.

I'm not saying PUGs cant get it done. Just that it isn't as frequent as you make it sound.

That mindset if first step to become god awful raid leader:
"When in doubt, increase dps!"

Question is how many times you have seen boss enrage and everyone still alive? Dont worry I can answer that = zero.
Last time I saw enrage in mythic/heroic was like 5 years ago.

And lets be honest, people doing tank-level dps cannot be counted as bad dps simply because they have no clue whatsoever how to play their class and picking "right" covenant won't help them in slightest or they died early.

[Gaidax]

Have you played the beta? The info I've researched so far disproves your argument. Not regarding warlocks, I'm pretty clueless and not really interested here. But a Necrolord Enhancement would indeed do way less damage first because how the ability works, and how you don't unlock your potency conduits at the same pace as other soulbinds in other covenants (meaning covenant A player gets access to a better ability and 3 potency conduits instead of 1 in week 3, whereas covenant D player has a very bad ability for the specc and has access only to 1 potency conduit in week 3 on top of that).

I have the Beta. I see first-hand what is going on there.

There are some powerful synergies there like Necrolords Drain Soul or Bone Spike that do way more than the usual ~10% DPS for covenant ability. These will be nerfed, heck Ion mentioned Bone Spike in his blue post - so you can bet they will nerf it.

There are also some irregularities with Soulbinds, such as Pelagos being way more powerful than just anything for DPS. That is also expected to be fixed.

Other than that - this fluff about 2 potency or 3 potency conduits is of little actual meaning, because 3rd potency conduit for pretty much everyone is about ~2-3% DPS increase if that - there seems to be a pattern there in Beta where you have one conduit which is busterino, then one more which is good and the rest are some flavor of shit. Ofc you could also be Havoc DH where all potency conduits are shit too... kekw.

And frankly that's also a side concern, because it's a super temporary disparity - you won't see optimal covenant being that only because of 3rd potency conduit.

- - - Updated - - -

And the number of PUGs Ive personally seen disintegrate in less than 5 pulls due to poor DPS is astoundingly high. The number of people kicked for low DPS or bad heals or weak tanking is higher.

I'm not saying PUGs cant get it done. Just that it isn't as frequent as you make it sound.

How many times I have to repeat myself... jeez...

Those cases are FAR, FAR out of scope of power that Covenants provide. You won't have people pulling tank or otherwise atrocious DPS that is an actual issue, because they did not pick optimal covenant in a PuG setting.

Heck, your whole argument is basically what I'm saying. Do we have covenants live or what? These people explode because they don't know what the fuck they are doing with their characters to begin with. Clueless +10% or clueless +15% or clueless +5% is still clueless.

[Wuusah]

That mindset if first step to become god awful raid leader:
"When in doubt, increase dps!"

Question is how many times you have seen boss enrage and everyone still alive? Dont worry I can answer that = zero.
Last time I saw enrage in mythic/heroic was like 5 years ago.

And lets be honest, people doing tank-level dps cannot be counted as bad dps simply because they have no clue whatsoever how to play their class and picking "right" covenant won't help them in slightest or they died early.

People who deal low dps are usually either holding the group back by not knowing their rotation or they are holding the group back by being dead because they failed a mechanic. In both cases it's easier to replace those players to help the group. It doesn't matter that you don't reach boss enrage. Most bosses have extremely dangerous mechanics that wipe the raid. Like Ma'ut or Xanesh balls. You want to do as much dps as possible to have as few of these boss mechanics as possible. These mechanics are like soft enrages. "increase dps" works because it doesn't matter whether someone just presses random buttons or because they died to a mechanic. Low dps is low dps and people with low dps are being rightfully kicked.

The problem with pug raid leads is not that they quickly kick the slackers, but that oftentimes it's they or their friends who are slacking and obviously won't do anything about that.

[Rageonit]

People who deal low dps are usually either holding the group back by not knowing their rotation or they are holding the group back by being dead because they failed a mechanic. In both cases it's easier to replace those players to help the group. It doesn't matter that you don't reach boss enrage. Most bosses have extremely dangerous mechanics that wipe the raid. Like Ma'ut or Xanesh balls. You want to do as much dps as possible to have as few of these boss mechanics as possible.

This is true, but that's also arguing: "We need more DPS to be able to skip some of the mechanics". Which is obviously one way to do it, nothing wrong with that approach. But than again, should that be a point of concern for the devs? Should that be a reason to make Covenant abilities easily switchable, so PUGs can have more passive DPS and skip said mechanics with ease? Because that seems like a lazy approach. One could argue that if you can't do mechanics consistently, you don't deserve to kill the boss. Same thing with @Baconeggcheese arguments: first he compains that PUGs overpower encounters, and then he argues average guilds will need every bit of passive DPS to... to do what, exactly? Overpower encounters even faster?

[kaminaris]

People who deal low dps are usually either holding the group back by not knowing their rotation or they are holding the group back by being dead because they failed a mechanic. In both cases it's easier to replace those players to help the group. It doesn't matter that you don't reach boss enrage. Most bosses have extremely dangerous mechanics that wipe the raid. Like Ma'ut or Xanesh balls. You want to do as much dps as possible to have as few of these boss mechanics as possible. These mechanics are like soft enrages. "increase dps" works because it doesn't matter whether someone just presses random buttons or because they died to a mechanic. Low dps is low dps and people with low dps are being rightfully kicked.

The problem with pug raid leads is not that they quickly kick the slackers, but that oftentimes it's they or their friends who are slacking and obviously won't do anything about that.

Funny how you mention xanesh as you literally could bring super average to bad players and still do it as long as you do balls correctly. While on the other hand you could bring best dpses in the world and you will wipe forever if balls are not done correctly.

This boss is exact opposite of what mentality you try to push here.

And you dont understand one basic thing: If you go pug, you fully expect to meet god awful players.
There is just no point in even trying to pug expecting people to be top (or even good) tier players.
Its wishful thinking that is best to be abandoned early otherwise you will burn yourself.

[Az0na]

If majority picks 1 covenant because its strongest either neef that one or buff the others.

No way they will be happy if 99% picks 1 side.

[Wuusah]

This is true, but that's also arguing: "We need more DPS to be able to skip some of the mechanics". Which is obviously one way to do it, nothing wrong with that approach. But than again, should that be a point of concern for the devs? Should that be a reason to make Covenant abilities easily switchable, so PUGs can have more passive DPS and skip said mechanics with ease? Because that seems like a lazy approach. One could argue that if you can't do the mechanics consistently, you don't deserve to kill the boss. Same thing with @Baconeggcheese arguments: first he compains that PUGs overpower encounters, and then he argues average guilds will need every bit of DPS to... to do what, exactly? Overpower encounters even faster?

Oh I don't think the devs should do anything about that. I think from a performance perspective it's not going to be so bad that one covenant will outperform another covenant by a mile. Whatever covenant you pick, if you know what you are doing, you are going to perform well.

People tell all kinds of horror stories about pugs and it really makes me wonder what game you are playing, because during my whole time playing M+ and pug raids, not a single time did I see anyone mention someone else's talent choices. Ever. I've never seen anyone inspect another player for another reason than curiosity. Most people have no fucking clue what is a good or bad talent on another char because most people aren't playing each class and each spec! I really don't see this idea that someone wouldn't get invited because they have the wrong covenant. Especially with every covenant giving something different for each class. Do you guys actually expect that pug players will memorize what the meta spec and meta covenant is for each and every class? The only time in M+ pugs when covenant will matter is when people want the buff that you get in a dungeon and the group doesn't have that covenant yet, so they'll search for someone with that covenant in particular. Other than that, people will just not care. As long as you press the right buttons at the right time and do big dick dps, people will not give a damn about your covenant choice. If you don't perform well, people will blame you, not your covenant choice.

My personal gripe with the system is that you cannot really test stuff out. The test run during leveling is a joke. You don't have soulbinds yet, you don't have conduits yet. You don't have legendaries yet. And you didn't really get to test your covenant ability in content where it matters. And if you want to test in endgame, you'll have to wait 1-2 weeks to get back to your old covenant. That's a hefty price to pay for testing out something new... I really dislike this concept. I also dislike that I'm forced to choose between my PvE tank spec and my PvP heal spec...

After over a decade where you could play every spec in every content just how you wanted, now you are being limited for the sake of being limited.

edit:

Funny how you mention xanesh as you literally could bring super average to bad players and still do it as long as you do balls correctly. While on the other hand you could bring best dpses in the world and you will wipe forever if balls are not done correctly.

This boss is exact opposite of what mentality you try to push here.

And you dont understand one basic thing: If you go pug, you fully expect to meet god awful players.
There is just no point in even trying to pug expecting people to be top (or even good) tier players.
Its wishful thinking that is best to be abandoned early otherwise you will burn yourself.

The same players can't always do the ball game. If everyone is good, then it's no problem. The more bad players you have the less ball phases you can survive.
And no, you shouldn't expect pugs to be god awful. People aren't pugging because they are too bad to raid in a guild. That's some weird mentality of yours.

[Gaidax]

Super average and bad players would likely not be able to pull off the ball-mechanic on mythic xanesh, throw in the interrupts to the adds as well and yeah..

Bad players don't go Mythic Xanesh to begin with. Super average ones can do their ball pass, it's not a rocket science, just a bit of a practice.

[SirCowdog]

But why is this even an argument? Why, in your skill-based game, where mastering the encounter is the key to victory, is it suddenly so bad that people wipe numerous times on 5%? Don't you see that what you're arguing here is: "If people wipe on 5%, we need to give them more passive DPS". How is that good to anyone? What you should be asking instead is: "Okay, do they wipe on 5%, because they lack passive damage, or because they aren't doing the mechanics properly?" And in a heroic raid, it's almost always the latter. Just because the leeway is so big. No matter how sub-optimal your build is, if you play it correctly, and if you do the mechanics correctly, the boss will fall down. Even the PUGs that kill bosses make numerous mistakes during the encounter - but again, the leeway is so big you can still recover. The only thing that player power changes here is that, with more player power, you have more room for mistakes - and with less player power, you need to be better with mechanics. That's why PUGs often "overgear" it (have higher average item level than an organized run) - because PUGs make a lot of mistakes.

I wasn't really trying to make an argument based on that. I was simply providing a counter-point to the idea that optimal play(be it mechanic execution or build) can very easily make up the difference between a wipe and a clear while using a sub-optimal build. The idea that it's somehow ok to be sub-optimal when wipes happen regularly(to me and to many players across the board) within the 5% range, is quite frankly.....not grounded in reality.

Can players make it happen even with bad builds? Sure. But does it happen often in the early stages of a release, such as the 4th week after a content drop or new raid? Doubtful.

But that doesn't mean players in those PUGs need high item level (or a better Covenant ability, for that matter); they need to get better, only they often don't have the patience.

STRONGLY disagree.

In other games what you just said might be true. But in WoW a vast majority of character power comes from gear and optimal builds. I don't necessarily like that it's this way. I'm much more in favor of skillful play, having completed deathless runs in all Dark Souls games, and being a huge fan of hardcore mode in games like diablo. But WoW is not set up this way, and pretending or misrepresenting it as otherwise is not a good basis for a discussion.

- - - Updated - - -

That mindset if first step to become god awful raid leader:
"When in doubt, increase dps!"

Question is how many times you have seen boss enrage and everyone still alive? Dont worry I can answer that = zero.
Last time I saw enrage in mythic/heroic was like 5 years ago.

And lets be honest, people doing tank-level dps cannot be counted as bad dps simply because they have no clue whatsoever how to play their class and picking "right" covenant won't help them in slightest or they died early.

Low DPS is also caused by being dead. :/

And you'll note that I made a point of including poor heals and weak tanking as well.

I'm not arguing from a standpoint of one or the other. Skillful play AND optimal build is best! I simply doubt very strongly that 4th week PUGs are magically clearing heroic with sub-optimal builds on a regular basis relative to TOTAL boss attempts across the entire PUG playerbase. Certainly, later on when the mechanics are more well known across the board, and gear has had more time to be accumulated to a point where it makes up for shortcomings in execution....sub-optimal builds matter MUCH less.

[Whackadoodle]

If - like overwhelming majority - play up to Heroic Raid/M+15/PVP below high rating

Do you have any numbers to back up that the majority get to M+15 or even do more than 1 full clear of heroic? I'd really love to see it. I've been looking for a website that has this information for a while.

[Tesshin20]

I rarely type on these forums anymore, but when I see something that I know for 100% is just plain wrong I will say so:

STRONGLY disagree.

In other games what you just said might be true. But in WoW a vast majority of character power comes from gear and optimal builds. I don't necessarily like that it's this way. I'm much more in favor of skillful play, having completed deathless runs in all Dark Souls games, and being a huge fan of hardcore mode in games like diablo. But WoW is not set up this way, and pretending or misrepresenting it as otherwise is not a good basis for a discussion.

This is based on the premise is that the character power is the most important factor when determining the result of an encounter with a boss. Character power has become recently a way to make up for skillful play, as its the fastest way to the goal. Achieving a dead boss with skillful play requires more effort than just having more gear or being optimal as the latter does not rely on making the right tactical decision from second to second.

So you biggest "power" against any foe in wow is not the gear or optimal builds, but your skill. Oh god how much better the game would be if people like you encouraged that approach.

[SirCowdog]

How many times I have to repeat myself... jeez...

Those cases are FAR, FAR out of scope of power that Covenants provide. You won't have people pulling tank or otherwise atrocious DPS that is an actual issue, because they did not pick optimal covenant in a PuG setting.

Heck, your whole argument is basically what I'm saying. Do we have covenants live or what? These people explode because they don't know what the fuck they are doing with their characters to begin with. Clueless +10% or clueless +15% or clueless +5% is still clueless.

I only entered the discussion in the past page or so, so I apologize if you have to repeat previous points.

I will only add that there's a REAL problem with the PUG community when it comes to "optimal" or meta builds determining who gets invited and who doesn't. When a player gets denied an invite because they're playing the "wrong" build, then they never get the opportunity to show that raid that they're actually a good player. You can't deny that this is a thing that happens even today. It's rampant, and I honestly hate it. I have zero doubts that this will extend to include covenants as well.

I guess when it comes down to it, I just don't trust Blizzard's ability to make the Covenant abilities close enough to each other to avoid this problem. They haven't EVER been good at that. And the community will take that disparity and use it to fabricate a meta that has no real basis in reality.

Blizzard attempting to make choices "meaningful" is in direct conflict with the reality of how their community actually plays the game. If they make it too impactful, then the line that divides optimal and "wrong" covenant widens. If they make it too close, it becomes homogenized and loses all sense of being meaningful. My biggest concern is that they're digging in their heels with the attempt to make it "meaningful", and are ignoring the realities of what that entails.

- - - Updated - - -

This is based on the premise is that the character power is the most important factor when determining the result of an encounter with a boss.

That's because it all too often is the case. Are you familiar with the phrase: "Gear Check" ? This is a thing that regularly happens in WoW. It's built into the game.

I didn't say that skill makes no difference at all. Otherwise the race to world first would simply be one of collecting gear instead of coordination and execution. But to pretend that gear isn't a MAJOR(if not the primary) factor in performance in WoW is not being objective.

So you biggest "power" against any foe in wow is not the gear or optimal builds, but your skill. Oh god how much better the game would be if people like you encouraged that approach.

The problem is that "people like me" have been pushing for these kinds of things for literal years, if not decades. Blizzard doesn't listen. They aren't listening now. Not even to top end-players who have the weight of being cutting edge professional WoW players. They did this with Legion legendaries. They did it again with Azerite traits. Now they're doing it with covenants.

[burek]

4th week PUGs are magically clearing heroic

Pugs clear heroic on the first week, even on alliance. 4th week is one shot territory, if you even need anything from there at that point. That difficulty is really not something worth discussing.

You don't need to be 'optimal' to clear heroic or do a 15, in theory. But in reality, that's not how wow community works. If you want to have a chance to get invited to a group, you better make sure to be as optimal as possible - right class, spec, high ilvl, rio score, achievements.... and in shadowlands most likely the right covenant for the dungeon.

No matter how much the shitty roleplayers wish for it, the community is not going to change to accept bad choices. And your covenant choice is going to be a bad one for 3/4 of the dungeons. That's gonna work out amazing.

[Rageonit]

I'm not arguing from a standpoint of one or the other. Skillful play AND optimal build is best! I simply doubt very strongly that 4th week PUGs are magically clearing heroic with sub-optimal builds on a regular basis relative to TOTAL boss attempts across the entire PUG playerbase. Certainly, later on when the mechanics are more well known across the board, and gear has had more time to be accumulated to a point where it makes up for shortcomings in execution....sub-optimal builds matter MUCH less.

But that's the point, ain't it. Even if you're sub-optimal, you will down the boss eventually with enough patience, because week after week, you accumulate both experience and gear. That's why claims like: "Even average guilds need every bit of passive DPS" are false. They don't. "Even average guilds need every bit of passive DPS to down the boss a reset or two earlier" - yes, that's true. Is this a problem, though? I've seen more hardcore guilds fall apart for whatever reasons, than I saw F&F guilds falling apart because they need to farm for gear a week or two longer to overcome an obstacle. Those guilds are in no race and play at their own pace.

I play WoW since vanilla, been through all the stages: from a total scrub, through a no-lifer raiding several nights a week, to a casual raider I am right now. I teach my 9 years old daughter play WoW (don't worry, she doesn't PUG). So when I hear that we will NEED good covenant setup to kill bosses... I just laugh. Trust me, good covenant setup will be the least of our problems.
EDIT: Oh, and yes, we did clear Nyalotha heroic. Months ago.

[kaminaris]

Low DPS is also caused by being dead. :/

And you'll note that I made a point of including poor heals and weak tanking as well.

I'm not arguing from a standpoint of one or the other. Skillful play AND optimal build is best! I simply doubt very strongly that 4th week PUGs are magically clearing heroic with sub-optimal builds on a regular basis relative to TOTAL boss attempts across the entire PUG playerbase. Certainly, later on when the mechanics are more well known across the board, and gear has had more time to be accumulated to a point where it makes up for shortcomings in execution....sub-optimal builds matter MUCH less.

Being dead is failing, it doesnt mean low dps. Those are completely different issues.

You'll have much higher chance being kicked for dying vs doing low dps.
Healers are untouchable until people start complaining they die from low heals.
And tank is only getting kicked when you hear these words: "The other tank has no fucking clue what he is doing"

And also pugs clear heroic first week. Cutting edge pugs. Those players could clear entire mythic faster than most guilds if not for lack of x-realm and ID lockout.

Also you would be surprised how easy is to get pug that literally don't care about all that meta-shit. Because you know, most players don't go to forums.

[Dracullus]

Do you have any numbers to back up that the majority get to M+15 or even do more than 1 full clear of heroic? I'd really love to see it. I've been looking for a website that has this information for a while.

I meant all people doing M+15/HC and easier content, not that everyone will reach this level. It's controversial to say it's overwhelming majority?

[Rageonit]

Think I heard somewhere that less than 10% of the playerbase ever finished a m+15 run. But most statistics are made up, so take that with a grain of salt

[Baconeggcheese]

I actually find one of the respondents assessment true, you seem to not understand that people don't exactly share your mindset down the ladder.

https://youtu.be/civuoU_NE38

My 4 weeks HC pugging remark was to exemplify how little a small delta between covenants matters in a grand scale of things. People will pug HCs just fine whether they choose best covenant or worst one, because the deltas between them are relatively small when it comes to your sheet output. Players in said pugs would gain much more output if they'd play their class right, yet even with that deficiency somehow these pugs succeed and that's a whole heck more severe than a covenant delta. This is the whole point.

Frankly sircowdog made my point better than I did, but to reiterate... people who are pugging week 4 are overpowering it, they're pretty much universally the "performance minded players" you're talking about. The average player or the "many" you're talking about aren't doing this, hell they may not clear heroic ever. Players who are clearing heroic raids are already a subset of the game and not "the many".

Your average heroic pug tends to require the raid be close to fully heroic geared to get in them even months after it came out. They do this because every bit of player power is massively important to their ability to clear said raid *because* they can't trust everyone to be playing optimally.

Again your heroic example is the perfect counter to your own point.

Especially when you have people playing sub-optimally, as these systems are designed in a way to be more and more of your damage, so while it may only be 5-10% difference (which is still huge, especially across a raid) if you're playing optimally its potentially more if you're not.

1: A 5-10% difference is huge

2: I've seen points where across all the SL systems we've seen as much as a 40% delta, though I believe that was reigned in heavily with them overhauling soulbinds and removing a ton of power from them (and obviously tuning wasn't even started). I haven't seen a ton as far as numbers go because people aren't as prone to run numbers right now with how frequently things are changing.

But your assumption here is that there'll be a max of a 10% difference here across all the covenant systems if someone is making the "wrong" choices, which I find silly given blizzards track record consistently proving otherwise.

There will be outliers that will hammered in, but let's say that if after Blizz tuning there still will be a 10% delta in some cases between covenants... so what? For HC and down it does not matter whatsoever, because bosses will die regardless. This was my whole point.

10% may as well be 60% in the pug world, which I assume you know since you're claiming to be so in tune with players down the ladder.

Also 10% across a raid makes a massive impact on raids ability to down content and how you approach fights. I can't fathom how a performance minded player would argue otherwise when they should know better.

In the end - overwhelming majority of WoW players don't give rat's ass about 5% here and 10% there, that's the reality.

Nothing I've seen out of the way the WoW community behaves supports this assertion and the majority of it refutes it.

Again I point you to classic, where basically everything about how the average guild operates completely disagrees with everything you're saying here.

edit:

I'd also still love the answer to this:

Here let me ask you this, if based on your stance it doesn't matter to the entire player base outside of bleeding edge players, and bleeding edge players will just play whatever is the most optimal... then what is the benefit or the "greater good" you were talking about by designing the system in this way?