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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Spoken like someone who sucks at the game, knows they suck at the game, and still wants to do everything instead of self-improving anyways. Games where everyone can do everything because it's just that easy and/or players just lack that much agency are boring and unrewarding. Hello Kitty Island Adventure is that way ---->

    Might be more your style.
    Indeed, it is that way, Maby you should have a look?

    I personally prefer WoW, So i'd stick with it, and i hope shadowlands bring much more of the same

    Watching "Waaaah I can't show others i am better than them" complaints is one of the better parts of the Borrowed power system as well tbh.

  2. #182
    The issue I have with borrowed power is two fold:

    1) The game is built on the idea of power escalation. Each threat we face is more perilous than the last and we grow stronger as a result. Borrowed power takes that power growth away from the character and plants it in an item. An item that can be lost, stolen, replaced... point is our characters are no stronger from the effort. That lack of progression is demoralizing when the game is all about power escalation.

    2) Borrowed powers under the guise of meaningful choice (ie Legiondaries equip limit). This is harder to articulate but meaningful choice isn't about picking the right loadout before a fight... it's about using the right ability in a given situation. Having all of the abilities but using the right one for highest effect is rewarding and meaningful. Even using a sub-optimal ability that increases party performance or survivability has added utility which is psychologically rewarding in it's own way. Regardless, if these abilities only exist on items and are not part of our regular kits then they will never be used. Sims will always determine a right answer and that is good. But it becomes the only answer if you limit the number of options available to us.

    Just my 2 coppers
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Spoken like someone who sucks at the game, knows they suck at the game, and still wants to do everything instead of self-improving anyways. Games where everyone can do everything because it's just that easy and/or players just lack that much agency are boring and unrewarding. Hello Kitty Island Adventure is that way ---->

    Might be more your style.
    Implying that azerite and essences aren't your damage

    lmaooooooooooooooooooooo

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    The issue I have with borrowed power is two fold:

    1) The game is built on the idea of power escalation. Each threat we face is more perilous than the last and we grow stronger as a result. Borrowed power takes that power growth away from the character and plants it in an item. An item that can be lost, stolen, replaced... point is our characters are no stronger from the effort. That lack of progression is demoralizing when the game is all about power escalation.

    2) Borrowed powers under the guise of meaningful choice (ie Legiondaries equip limit). This is harder to articulate but meaningful choice isn't about picking the right loadout before a fight... it's about using the right ability in a given situation. Having all of the abilities but using the right one for highest effect is rewarding and meaningful. Even using a sub-optimal ability that increases party performance or survivability has added utility which is psychologically rewarding in it's own way. Regardless, if these abilities only exist on items and are not part of our regular kits then they will never be used. Sims will always determine a right answer and that is good. But it becomes the only answer if you limit the number of options available to us.

    Just my 2 coppers
    why have/code 50 things if only 2 are gonna be used?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Pamir View Post
    it was good in legion because it was genuine and meant something.

    now i feel like its just another shortcut for devs, feels empty and fake.
    I disagree it was good in Legion, the way legendaries felt on launch was absolutely god awful and off specs/alts were fucked early on too.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Implying that azerite and essences aren't your damage

    lmaooooooooooooooooooooo

    - - - Updated - - -



    why have/code 50 things if only 2 are gonna be used?
    There is a lot of damage that comes from azerite and essences that you actually dont have any impact on, they just happen. Thats the crux of the argument.
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Implying that azerite and essences aren't your damage
    What are you talking about? My preferred gear is static BIS lists that are obtainable, where there's a large discrepancy between players because of SKILL moreso than other aspects. RNG forging can gtfo. Huge amounts of power coming from RNG or passive sources can gtfo, etc. I'm well aware that azerite, essences, and corruptions make for a majority of player damage. It's dumb. The only people who seem to like it are people like the one I responded to. Casuals who don't want to be good at video games and don't like elitism.

    They're people who enjoy bumblefucking around and are more easily entertained than I am, because I need an actual challenge to stay engaged. In addition, that challenge always creates disparity, which naturally leads to elitism, which also leads to feeling good about doing something because someone else can't.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-09-11 at 04:40 PM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    ...why have/code 50 things if only 2 are gonna be used?
    No idea... but that's what they are currently doing. The Devs claim to give you a choice but when all the sims come back that this is the right way to play... yeah the other 48 never get used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  8. #188
    I'm tired of borrowed power and expansion specific systems coming before class concerns and quality of life.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    I dare you to say that legion was good to someone who got their bis "legendaily" in late Antorus.

    It was dog-shit.
    I'll say it to their face. When I finally got my "BIS" legiondaries I found they were awful and completely threw off my rotation. They wound up in the bank. Plus we got the currency towards the end, which I do agree should've been much earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    I'm tired of borrowed power and expansion specific systems coming before class concerns and quality of life.
    This! Exactly this. I would be fine with borrowed power if each spec didn't feel hollow and neutered after it gets removed. I feel like they should make every spec fun and functional without borrowed power, then think about how much they can add on top of that without completely breaking the balance.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'll say it to their face. When I finally got my "BIS" legiondaries I found they were awful and completely threw off my rotation. They wound up in the bank. Plus we got the currency towards the end, which I do agree should've been much earlier.
    How were your parses? As someone who is/was (when I played) concerned about such things, as it's my primary focus of the game, the difference between ret's BIS lego and people who didn't have it was ~25% at the start. They nerfed them in one of the mid patches so it went to "only" 15% discrepancy, and eventually I got it anyways, but those early patches were bullshit, and I still didn't like knowing legos had that much of an impact, even after I got it way later.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That is something false the dev team fed you with.
    You can, in fact keep adding infinitly to a system.
    Take the PvP talent system. They could keep adding more each expansion, but only let you choose 3. There are other systems too. For example the new skills can be upgrades of old skills with new or different side effects and/or animations.
    Basically, there are ways.

    It's more like, they want these systems cause they think they can sell expansions with them by making them a selling point.
    I think this method won't work for much longer though.
    And talent rows could easily have 4 or 5 choices. Would make things far more interesting to have twice as many choices, but same amount of picks. PvP balance gets thrown out the window with borrowed powers anyway, so that's not really a concern either.

  13. #193
    I really liked Legion's artifact weapons. Wielding doomhammer felt so good.
    I really disliked the amount of borrowed power in bfa. Essences and necklace could have been ok, but they made them too damn powerful.
    Corruptions are a joke.

  14. #194
    This is why i enjoy "Borrowed power" a Twlight beam slaming down on mobs for 750.000 Damage.. How can you ever think that something like this is Unfun or bad?


  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Why wouldn't they add anything next expansion?




    Does it? Why is more options something that has to stop?
    Option bloat in its own way is just as bad as ability bloat.

    Surely you must realize that if Blizzard were to add a row every expansion that you’d need a loading screen for all the “options”, right?

    Keep in mind that they need to keep their game available to newcomers. Imagine being a new player and opening your talent window only to be bombarded with 75 different choices. Even a newcomer wouldn’t spend enough time leveling to feel out that many choices.

    Sure, they could do with an extra row in any direction, but much more than that and we’re just headed towards another issue...

    Borrowed power isn’t an issue, it’s some baked up topic that people have unfortunately bitten into and are now convinced it’s a thing.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    Option bloat in its own way is just as bad as ability bloat.
    It's really not.

    Surely you must realize that if Blizzard were to add a row every expansion that you’d need a loading screen for all the “options”, right?
    Being hyperbolic doesn't help your argument. If they took every single ability ever added to the game since TBC launched that we now no longer have and made them into talents, this still wouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen next expansion either, or the one after that, and so on for the next 100.

    Borrowed power isn’t an issue
    Yes it is, it feels like shit for your character to have abilities arbitrarily stripped away from them for no reason, especially if you happened to enjoy those abilities.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    No idea... but that's what they are currently doing. The Devs claim to give you a choice but when all the sims come back that this is the right way to play... yeah the other 48 never get used.
    I mean you do have more (actual)choice now than you ever did
    but yes, I agree.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2020-09-11 at 06:55 PM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    This is why i enjoy "Borrowed power" a Twlight beam slaming down on mobs for 750.000 Damage.. How can you ever think that something like this is Unfun or bad?

    Because it's not a single player game.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Because it's not a single player game.
    Don't see how my post implied that it was.

  20. #200
    Yes, like covenants. They won't be coming with us going forward so the subclass argument is moot.

    I'm happy with borrowed powers with legendaries and gear though.
    Night Elves NEED long hair to the ground and more elegant/regal beautiful options to show their Highbourne heritage

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