Please remember all the times Blizzard were wrong - Launching WoW in Beta.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Professions post TBC mostly provided a raw stat bonus. (technically before that as well, since gear also provided just stats)
You could talk about Engineers Rocket boots, but since Engineer also provided a statbonus, most raiders just went Engineering + X (usually Blacksmith).

Not to mention, you could swap Professions whenever you wanted to, the only limitation on that was Gold.

Prof’s were not like swapping a talent tree until legion if you wanted to get some recipes that were limited it would stop you just swapping them on the fly to try and be optimal As well as there being the possibility of you not being able to get all the mats needed to get it all the way up and make every thing you need depending on your server.

If you want to say that they could be swapped if you saved up a ton of mats for every possible time you’d need to go between any of them as well as any rare recipes then sure you could do them but I don’t buy any one had ever saved up all of those for every profession at every time.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Timeless_E...k_Dragonflight

Read the post again.

Fair enough I remembered the essences bro being unique but I guess I was thinking of something else.

You'd think any of this discussion took place if those effects were limited to the outdoor world?
You're just digging for anything to support your argument, despite it absolutely not being relevant to the discussion at all.

You worded your post not me if you wanted to exclude forms of content you should have done so in it.

[Kralljin]

Prof’s were not like swapping a talent tree until legion if you wanted to get some recipes that were limited it would stop you just swapping them on the fly to try and be optimal As well as there being the possibility of you not being able to get all the mats needed to get it all the way up and make every thing you need depending on your server.

You know how on Classic people just level Gnome Engineering, craft all the valueable gadgets, then level Goblin to get all the valueable gadgets there?
Yep, that's how it works.

If you want to say that they could be swapped if you saved up a ton of mats for every possible time you’d need to go between any of them as well as any rare recipes then sure you could do them but I don’t buy any one had ever saved up all of those for every profession at every time.

As said, gold is the only barrier to swap them.
Rare recipes is one thing, but that's not really a barrier if you're in for the power.

You worded your post not me if you wanted to exclude forms of content you should have done so in it.

Because one would assume that such things are obvious enough to be excluded.
You also could've chosen Scryer and Aldor because their shoulder enchants are slightly different, but no one is up in arms over bit of secondary stats, or something in the outdoor world for that matter.

Not to mention that those buildings can be swapped, ironically.

[rrayy]

I'm tired of still playing beta when Blizzard releases their new expansions. Blizzard keeps launching systems in a horrible state and then end up having spend a lot of time in order to "fix" it.

Please remember how bad these systems were when they launched and how wrong Blizzard were from the get go.

- Garrisons
- Legion Legendaries
- Artifacts
- Azerite gear
- Essences
- Corruption gear

Please think about how awful these systems were when they were launched. And how much time Blizzard had to use during the expansions to fix them. It amaze me how people can still have this blind trust in Blizzard that they will get things right. How can you trust that Blizzard will be able to fix things with balancing after you have experienced the corruption gear.

Blizzard have often been wrong. Blizzard don't deserve your blind trust.

Don't tell others what to do. Also who made you sole arbiter of when Blizzard is right or wrong?

[sephrinx]

I've beta tested enough expansions on release to know better. I've cancelled my preorder and sent them a butthurt message about it.

[rrayy]

Ahh yes, the vaunted "if you don't like it, don't do it" argument from a very intelligent person.

Perhaps you should consider that people want the game to be better, and by wanting that do not want Blizzard to implement broken systems for the fun of having new gimmicks.

As opposed to your vaunted "My opinion is fact and the only way for the game to be any good is to completely cater to me" argument? You need to stop acting like you are the only one playing the game and that everyone agrees with you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You know how on Classic people just level Gnome Engineering, craft all the valueable gadgets, then level Goblin to get all the valueable gadgets there?
Yep, that's how it works.

wow wasn't/isn't limited to bfa legion and classic and engineering isn't the only profession you would need to be optimal in all types of content.

As said, gold is the only barrier to swap them.
Rare recipes is one thing, but that's not really a barrier if you're in for the power.

gold isn't the only barrier all the gold in the world will do nothing for you if your ah doesn't have all the maps you need to level though every expan. so to be able to optimize for every kinda of content you'd need to save the mats for every prof to level each time you'd have to change one, this is some thing I can safely say no one has ever done as you'd need an insane amount of storage to save all that stuff and no one would go though all that trouble just to be optimal while swapping between things.

Because one would assume that such things are obvious enough to be excluded.
You also could've chosen Scryer and Aldor because their shoulder enchants are slightly different, but no one is up in arms over bit of secondary stats, or something in the outdoor world for that matter.

Not to mention that those buildings can be swapped, ironically.

again you worded your own post if you wan't to say you can be optimal for every thing don't get your panties in the twist when some one brings up form's of content where you couldn't.

covenants are also swap able on a macro scale but that's not really relevant to the mico of wanting to swap things on the fly to be optimal just like rebuilding your garrison constantly wouldn't be.

[Aggrophobic]

Stop crying, sooner shadowland launch the better. Everyone is sick of BFA and its already one of the longest expansion. What do you want another 6+ months of this boring fest?

This far, BFA is quite a bit better than Shadowlands.

[Djuntas]

I'm tired of still playing beta when Blizzard releases their new expansions. Blizzard keeps launching systems in a horrible state and then end up having spend a lot of time in order to "fix" it.

Please remember how bad these systems were when they launched and how wrong Blizzard were from the get go.

- Garrisons
- Legion Legendaries
- Artifacts
- Azerite gear
- Essences
- Corruption gear

Please think about how awful these systems were when they were launched. And how much time Blizzard had to use during the expansions to fix them. It amaze me how people can still have this blind trust in Blizzard that they will get things right. How can you trust that Blizzard will be able to fix things with balancing after you have experienced the corruption gear.

Blizzard have often been wrong. Blizzard don't deserve your blind trust.

This is why I have played last few exspansions since MOP close or after the first big patch...like 8.1 etc. Im also VEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYY tired of gated flying and all the catch up crap.

Please should just be full catch up, no gates...NOTHING! - Say corruption vendor should had been with 8.3 and so on...

[Kralljin]

wow wasn't/isn't limited to bfa legion and classic and engineering isn't the only profession you would need to be optimal in all types of content.

The majority of professions provided stat bonuses, the exception was engineering gadgets.

gold isn't the only barrier all the gold in the world will do nothing for you if your ah doesn't have all the maps you need to level though every expan.

With the AH being much larger due to higher pop, it's not a huge problem.
Secondly, since it's related to economy: Demand creates supply.

In Classic, people sold leveling packages for professions, especially Engineering, which included all the mats you needed to level a profession from 1-300.

again you worded your own post if you wan't to say you can be optimal for every thing don't get your panties in the twist when some one brings up form's of content where you couldn't.

It's not only irrelevant, it's even false because those things were swappable.

If you want to have that point to badly, then have it, but i'd rather move the discussion to the things that actually matter.

covenants are also swap able on a macro scale but that's not really relevant to the mico of wanting to swap things on the fly to be optimal just like rebuilding your garrison constantly wouldn't be.

You could have multiple Garrison buildings, if you wanted to have the Barracks for the followers...you could have them and the zone specific effects didn't even have a CD to swap, just some gold cost attached to it.

[Soluna]

You need to learn to live with the fact that you cant dictate what Blizzard needs to do.

You need to get some standards in your life.

[Rootsbum]

Theese posts reminds me of thoose guys who stalks their ex and trashtalks her YEARS after they broke up

Move on, find a new girlfriend

[Sluvs]

There is no trust involved. If I like what I see, I get it. If I don't, I skip the expansion. That's it.

I don't need to trust them whatsoever.

[Soluna]

As opposed to your vaunted "My opinion is fact and the only way for the game to be any good is to completely cater to me" argument? You need to stop acting like you are the only one playing the game and that everyone agrees with you.

Only no one is asking to remove your covenant choices. Do you want to pretend that you are a Night Fae paladin, and stick to that ability no matter what? Feel free to, but let me choose what spell my warlock gets regardless of aesthetics.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself how does it feel for some people like me, to have to choose between gameplay FUN or LOOKS.

For warlocks, the only real fun ability is the necrolord's, due to the immense interactions available for drain soul, changing the playstyle of Aff to be more execute focused, while it allows destro to do strong aoe burst, or to pick a decent competitive fire-based single target/cleave build instead of the regular infernal/chaos bolts spam one.

The rest of the covenants have shit abilities, that give almost 0 cool interactions to you, aside from malefic rapture doing extra dmg due to there being an extra dot on the target that is barely noticeable, nor does it synergise with anything. Yet I love venthyr aesthetics, so tell me, how is it correct to make someone pick between FUN or LOOKS? Have you ever been told before that if you complete this raid on mythic, you can EITHER choose to have a level 100 row talent, OR the mythic transmog set?

What the fuck is that bullshit? Now give me a proper answer, instead of going ham at others for simply wanting the game to be a bit better. No one asks for 20 bosses per raid, or 15 dungeons at launch and 10 more post release. All we are asking is freedom of choice, rather than a) being fucked over if fun and looks aren't paired up, b) pick one of the two and always feel bad about not having the other or c) play a class that fits both the covenant aesthetics, and has the most fun covenant ability (i.e. prot paladin kyrian has both cool mog and a fun ability).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The majority of professions provided stat bonuses, the exception was engineering gadgets.

stats are still tied to optimization.

With the AH being much larger due to higher pop, it's not a huge problem.
Secondly, since it's related to economy: Demand creates supply.

not every server was at the same pop pre lgion and supply and demand doesn't matter if the supply isn't there at the moment you want to change something to optimize, sure the market could adjust after you bought every thing you could but that doesn't mean you'd always be able to get what you needed.

In Classic, people sold leveling packages for professions, especially Engineering, which included all the mats you needed to level a profession from 1-300.

and said leveling packages weren't an always available thing from classic-legion so some people selling some at some times is irrelevant.

It's not only irrelevant, it's even false because those things were swappable.

If you want to have that point to badly, then have it, but i'd rather move the discussion to the things that actually matter.

Covenants are swap able essences are swapable so were azerite pieces corruptions legion legendarys ect. the fact that you can sawp them isn't what matters it's rather you can do so in a reasonable time frame to optimize your self while swapping between different forms of content.

You could have multiple Garrison buildings, if you wanted to have the Barracks for the followers...you could have them and the zone specific effects didn't even have a CD to swap, just some gold cost attached to it.

yes there were multiple buildings thats just more thing you need to swap to be optimal if there are differences between them.

there was also a build time to swap between buildings it wasn't/isn't instant.

[glowpipe]

I do remember all the times they got it wrong. But i also remember all the shit they done right and made me play the game for 15 years. The right shit far outweighs the wrong shit.

No other mmo game, or many other games in general have kept so many players playing for this long. So saying that blizzard doesn't know what they are doing is kinda moronic

[Gaidax]

I do remember all the times they got it wrong. But i also remember all the shit they done right and made me play the game for 15 years. The right shit far outweighs the wrong shit.

No other mmo game, or many other games in general have kept so many players playing for this long. So saying that blizzard doesn't know what they are doing is kinda moronic

Word.

/10c

[Kralljin]

stats are still tied to optimization.

Which are
1.Easier to balance.
2.You could swap them.

not every server was at the same pop pre lgion and supply and demand doesn't matter if the supply isn't there at the moment you want to change something to optimize, sure the market could adjust after you bought every thing you could but that doesn't mean you'd always be able to get what you needed.

With the profession changes, you can level the current expansion profession, which are naturally are more than abudant.

Like, people did that in BfA, multiple times in fact, they rerolled a profession depending on the items they've got.

Covenants are swap able

Unlike any of those systems you've mentioned, they are by by design difficult to swap around, you should stick with your choice.

there was also a build time to swap between buildings it wasn't/isn't instant.

What was the build time? An hour?
Two weeks swapping for powerful abilities vs. an hour for some outdoor bonuses.
Yeah, totally legit comparison.

Your comparisons are flat out terrible and are only basis that they exist, while completely ignoring that they aren't even near the scale of the covenant system.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which are
1.Easier to balance.
2.You could swap them.

With the profession changes, you can level the current expansion profession, which are naturally are more than abudant.

Like, people did that in BfA, multiple times in fact, they rerolled a profession depending on the items they've got.

yes with the changes you can swap easily post legion but the whole point was we were talking about things that would stop you from optimizing on the fly for 10 years before legion so the changes are irrleevent.

Unlike any of those systems you've mentioned, they are by by design difficult to swap around, you should stick with your choice.

I Don't think it really matters if something is designed to be difficult or is just difficult without it being thought out the end result is still a pain in the ass.

What was the build time? An hour?
Two weeks swapping for powerful abilities vs. an hour for some outdoor bonuses.
Yeah, totally legit comparison.

Your comparisons are flat out terrible and are only basis that they exist, while completely ignoring that they aren't even near the scale of the covenant system.

again you made your own post i didn't write it for you so i could make up some gotcha. if you want to say that the difference in power is different post legion then i agree with you but when it comes to optimizing for all content there has almost always been a barrier even if it wasn't as steep.

[Sluvs]

Only no one is asking to remove your covenant choices. Do you want to pretend that you are a Night Fae paladin, and stick to that ability no matter what? Feel free to, but let me choose what spell my warlock gets regardless of aesthetics.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself how does it feel for some people like me, to have to choose between gameplay FUN or LOOKS.

For warlocks, the only real fun ability is the necrolord's, due to the immense interactions available for drain soul, changing the playstyle of Aff to be more execute focused, while it allows destro to do strong aoe burst, or to pick a decent competitive fire-based single target/cleave build instead of the regular infernal/chaos bolts spam one.

The rest of the covenants have shit abilities, that give almost 0 cool interactions to you, aside from malefic rapture doing extra dmg due to there being an extra dot on the target that is barely noticeable, nor does it synergise with anything. Yet I love venthyr aesthetics, so tell me, how is it correct to make someone pick between FUN or LOOKS? Have you ever been told before that if you complete this raid on mythic, you can EITHER choose to have a level 100 row talent, OR the mythic transmog set?

What the fuck is that bullshit? Now give me a proper answer, instead of going ham at others for simply wanting the game to be a bit better. No one asks for 20 bosses per raid, or 15 dungeons at launch and 10 more post release. All we are asking is freedom of choice, rather than a) being fucked over if fun and looks aren't paired up, b) pick one of the two and always feel bad about not having the other or c) play a class that fits both the covenant aesthetics, and has the most fun covenant ability (i.e. prot paladin kyrian has both cool mog and a fun ability).

Man, I will get a macro for this argument.

You cannot pretend that you are locked into your covenant. People advocating for harder swapping wants a game where your choice matters. The game will be fundamentally different if you can swap it at any time.

Also you are free to choose, you just do not want to stick by that choice. That is it.

Player agency means you get to choose, but you also get to live with the consequences of that choice.

[Kralljin]

yes with the changes you can swap easily post legion but the whole point was we were talking about things that would stop you from optimizing on the fly for 10 years before legion so the changes are irrleevent.

I will still stick to it: It's possible and if there is a demand, then people will supply and it's easier to balance because it's just stats.

I Don't think it really matters if something is designed to be difficult or is just difficult without it being thought out the end result is still a pain in the ass.

Maybe you should re read the systems you've mentioned, because all of them have been pretty easy to swap.

Like, you could swap essences on the fly, you could swap your Azerite gear, and so forth.

if you want to say that the difference in power is different post legion then i agree with you but when it comes to optimizing for all content there has almost always been a barrier even if it wasn't as steep.

Because no sane person considers world content in terms of power worth talking about.

And quite frankly, your arguments are most of the time grasping at straws which makes this entire argument absolutely not enjoyable.
You just take something that has at best a distant relation to covenants and go "but it's like that", while having to ignore major factors that set them apart from covenants.