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  1. #81
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I guess the part where Metamorphosis left Warlocks is a little contentious. But it still seems a little weird that examples like Ebonlocke can quite fully transform into Demons as Warlocks but somehow the line seems divisive even now, although we wouldn't argue the same difference for Priests and Paladins - would we?

    If we're basing a race's ability to mutate as being a forming factor for Demon Hunters and how well they can adapt to Demonic energies, examples like Humans and Orcs, Draenei, Tauren, Undead, Gnomes, Dwarves, Trolls, and Elves of all kinds seem to have lots of variations to fit that mold as they have tons of mutations of which to give them the resistance to make them able candidates.
    Pretty sure Ebonlocke's transformation was a bit beyond Metamorphosis, really - Ebonlocke seems to have become a literal demon now, given he's able to be effectively banished like one. Full and permanent transformation from one state to another is always possible in the Warcraft universe, but it doesn't mean Ebonlocke occupies the same unstable niche as a Demon Hunter or what have you.

    I'm not just referring to the ability of a given race to be transformed (all of them can be in extreme situations or overwhelming types of power), but more the malleability or plasticity of a given Warcraft race's biology. Elves are all over the place from an evolutionary standpoint: Night Elves, High Elves, Blood Elves, Fal'dorei, Nightborne, Wretched, Withered, Felborne, Nightfallen, and Felblood. They've demonstrated a rather extreme capacity for transformation, and so that may be a key part of how they can imbibe raw demonic essence but not turn into demons full-on, so to speak, instead holding themselves on the edge of that precipice and exist at a halfway point between Elf and Demon.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Now that The Illidari are part of The Alliance and Horde, I don't see why they can't train the races they are allied with who desire to become Demon Hunters. Just no DH Gnomes please.
    This is what I'm thinking now. It kinda tracks with the new DK changes to races. I say let them ALL be Demonhunters.

  3. #83
    They would have to create a new starting area for other races. The current demonhunter one features the timeline involving the blacktemple. When Illidian and the illidari were captured by Maiev. Before being freed when the legion was attacking the vault of the wardens. Doubt there gonna put any efforts into adding other races. When dev time is already being cut for patches and expansions.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Pretty sure Ebonlocke's transformation was a bit beyond Metamorphosis, really - Ebonlocke seems to have become a literal demon now, given he's able to be effectively banished like one. Full and permanent transformation from one state to another is always possible in the Warcraft universe, but it doesn't mean Ebonlocke occupies the same unstable niche as a Demon Hunter or what have you.

    I'm not just referring to the ability of a given race to be transformed (all of them can be in extreme situations or overwhelming types of power), but more the malleability or plasticity of a given Warcraft race's biology. Elves are all over the place from an evolutionary standpoint: Night Elves, High Elves, Blood Elves, Fal'dorei, Nightborne, Wretched, Withered, Felborne, Nightfallen, and Felblood. They've demonstrated a rather extreme capacity for transformation, and so that may be a key part of how they can imbibe raw demonic essence but not turn into demons full-on, so to speak, instead holding themselves on the edge of that precipice and exist at a halfway point between Elf and Demon.
    If all it took for all races to have DHs was an ear option so they could be designated as half-elf so that the biology works, I'd be okay with that.

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans Aurabolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Oh I'm aware. But, I meant that from recent lore, like Legion and the Illidan novel, it was shown and stated that only elves were trained as demon hunters. Fel orcs and draenei/Broken were more the bulk of the footsoldiers of illidan's army.

    This is opposed to worgen and goblins, which had little-to-no lore with the Scourge before Cata. Which is why I feel they would need to make a new dh starting zone for more races added.
    Yeah, the Broken and Fel Orcs were basically cannon fodder compared to the Illidari despite the latter being fewer in number in comparison. Illidan only personally trained Night Elves and later Blood Elves as Demon Hunters. The Illidari now might be willing to train other races on a trial basis with the Legion dealt with. Probably start with Void Elves, Nightborne, Humans and Orcs. And yeah, other DHs would need their own starting experience.

    There is that quest chain involving Arugal in Grizzly Hills. Apparently, he was raised by the Lich King to research a way to raise Worgen in Undeath since the curse protects them from being raised. Worgen DKs are the end result of those experiments. So, the Worgen DKs do have some lore background to them.
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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    Yeah, the Broken and Fel Orcs were basically cannon fodder compared to the Illidari despite the latter being fewer in number in comparison. Illidan only personally trained Night Elves and later Blood Elves as Demon Hunters. The Illidari now might be willing to train other races on a trial basis with the Legion dealt with. Probably start with Void Elves, Nightborne, Humans and Orcs. And yeah, other DHs would need their own starting experience.

    There is that quest chain involving Arugal in Grizzly Hills. Apparently, he was raised by the Lich King to research a way to raise Worgen in Undeath since the curse protects them from being raised. Worgen DKs are the end result of those experiments. So, the Worgen DKs do have some lore background to them.
    Yeah that's why I said "little-to-no" before. While we learned about Arugal and the worgen in Grizzly Hills being part of the Scourge, there wasn't any specific lore about worgen DKs existing until Cata.

    It totally made sense, just like DHs of any other race. But at least the seed of worgen in the Scourge was planted, unlike Draenei and orcs being trained in Illidan's elite forces.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Lets pretend that blizzard is not a retcon machine and would say he did train other but he just didn't like the results, or send elsewhere, or whatever reasons they can come up to, its not ilidan book is so precious that they would not do some tweaks.

    of course, thats just one route, they still can say the today illidri trained more because obvious resons, illidan work isn't done.
    Yeah, they could write whatever they want, but people notice and hate retcons, so that's the least wise route they could take. I'm not saying they won't, mind you, I'm saying they shouldn't. This is all speculation about something that hasn't been stated by Blizz as something they want to do, anyway.

    A new DH starting area would just be a good idea for new DH races. They did it with DKs recently to accommodate for the Pandaren and Allied Races when they could have easily left it alone.

    People on here would still defend Blizz and say "MAYBE A NIGHTBORNE WENT TO NORTHREND" or "MAYBE A VOID ELF EXISTED BEFORE LEGION, YOU DON'T KNOW" so that's not an issue. And it's not like the new DH starting area would need to be fancy, since the new DK starting area is basically "k, you're dead. Now go."
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  7. #87
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Now that The Illidari are part of The Alliance and Horde, I don't see why they can't train the races they are allied with who desire to become Demon Hunters. Just no DH Gnomes please.
    The whole reason demon hunters were created, was to combat the Legion. With Sargeras currently bound to the SotP (for now) & the armies of the Legion scattered, I highly doubt the Illidari would now start teaching this dangerous ritual to just anyone, especially when there's no need for new DH to be created. By the time Sargeras comes back into the story, I'm willing to bet we're going to have a better idea as to why he did what he did, and isn't going to be our "enemy" per say.
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  8. #88
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Again, your base about the black temple being an appartment is based round a lie, that is a nonsensical logic

    the black temple is not an appartment, Illidan is not a landlord, stop bulshitting
    Ugh. Once again: just because the concubines are in Illidan's temple does not mean they are his.

    "alien army" rofl, everyone answered and obey illidan like he was some kind of god.
    You say I have "no reading comprehension", and yet you read "allied army" as "alien army". Way to go to shoot yourself on the foot. Also: "everyone obeyed Illidan like he was some kind of god"? Where did you get that idea? The Naga were there because the Old Gods told them to, and were also told to cut off his heart "if he became troublesome". Kael'Thas was working behind Illidan's back with Kil'Jaeden, and Akama wanted to defeat Illidan and retake the Black Temple from him. Those three were plotting against Illidan and the only reason their armies obeyed Illidan is because their leaders told them so to keep him from figuring out their true motives.

    sure fam, whrever you wish to somehow make your nonsensical point look better
    The only "nonsensical" point is yours, here, claiming that the harem is Illidans only because "it's in his temple", while ignoring evidence on the contrary:
    • Illidan's character. He was never portrayed as one to seek the "pleasures of the flesh", since he always kept "his eyes on the prize". I.e. destroying the Burning Legion, and Tyrande.
    • It is never stated, anywhere, game, novels, manuals, tweets or otherwise, that the harem is actually his;
    • The whole "harem" thing being much more likely to be a blood elf thing, and wouldn't you know it, the harem and "pleasure demons" area are the only places with blood elf architecture.

    that is your post where the only thing you do is vomit your own opinion as a fact.
    So you quote-mine me again, this time adding lies on top of it. Let us check that entire paragraph you omitted, shall we:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "But they could want to become DHs to protect Azeroth!!" Again, no. First, because the process of becoming a demon hunter is extremely scarring to both the mind and the body. You willingly blind yourself. You willingly consume a demon, taking his soul into your body, which mutates you into an abomination (in the eyes of others) and dooms you to spend the rest of your life fighting for control over your own body, being constantly tortured by the demon within.
    Tell me: what exactly, in the underlined text, is "opinion"? Because all I wrote there are facts.

    Again, for you, there is no reason, for you, the reasons that exist are not enough, and you are simple wrong here
    And you gave, so far, zero reasons other than "I wanna condemn myself to eternal mental and physical torture".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    A lot of the Legion seems to carry a lot of various summoning tools (and ships, not to mention the hub the Demon Hunters control), and as we saw in Legion the portals can work both ways - we can invade their worlds using their leftover portals just as they are invading ours. In partnership with Warlocks and Mages opening even more portals to other worlds for Demon Hunters to hunt Demons across the cosmos would be one way of them continuing the endless hunt - though I'd argue there are probably enough demons on Azeroth alone to deal with (for now). Thinking of all the corrupted Legion-contested areas on Azeroth, there's a lot of land and a lot of Demons to cover, not to mention any more that may make their way to Azeroth in the meantime.
    The demon hunter ship is low-fuel, according to @Aucald, as "consistently low-fuel" during Legion, so I assume it lacks the means for interstellar travel, and I don't remember the ship having the ability to create portals. As for "refueling" it, if memory serves, it runs on souls, so not exactly a fuel source that is easy to come by without causing attrition with others.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-09-13 at 03:43 PM.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The demon hunter ship is low-fuel, according to @Aucald, as "consistently low-fuel" during Legion, so I assume it lacks the means for interstellar travel, and I don't remember the ship having the ability to create portals. As for "refueling" it, if memory serves, it runs on souls, so not exactly a fuel source that is easy to come by without causing attrition with others.
    Couldn't they just use, uh, demon souls from the demons they hunt?

  10. #90
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Couldn't they just use, uh, demon souls from the demons they hunt?
    Does Azeroth has enough demons to power interstellar travel? What they got during the Legion invasion barely got the place running.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #91
    I'd be fine with orcs and eredar having access to the DH class, but only if the orcs and eredar are of the fel-corrupted variety.

    In other words, they'd need DH specific customization options like BE and NE for my own personal approval, and I wouldn't ever want to see it combined with, say, Mag'har orc or lightforged draenei customization options.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
    It would not make any sense if they get demon hunters; if you read the book about the demon hunter process you will see that those 2 races are the worst to get demon hunters.

    To be a demon hunter, you have to go through a ritual to merge with a demon. Draeneis & Orcs have terrible history with demons, the Draeneis that would turn themselves into a demon are the Eredars. The Orcs that would do the same would be cast out by the modern orcs, because summoning a demon is 1 thing but to put in demon power within yourself is worst than what the orcs did the 1st time to get themselves enslaved to the demons.

    The only races that I see that would be strong enough to withstand this & wouldn't have so much issues with it would be; Humans(both types), Dwarves(both), Trolls, Tauren, Nightborne, void elves, & Pandas.
    Lol the Elves have a bad history with demons aswell. Utterly ridiculous argument.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Does Azeroth has enough demons to power interstellar travel? What they got during the Legion invasion barely got the place running.
    Well, more demons are always being summoned into Azeroth - not that DHs have to just hunt on Azeroth anyway, there are demons practically everywhere we've been.

  14. #94
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Well, more demons are always being summoned into Azeroth - not that DHs have to just hunt on Azeroth anyway, there are demons practically everywhere we've been.
    We cannot go anywhere outside of Azeroth. As far as I know, the connection to Outland through the Dark Portal was severed when the Iron Horde came through. And we can no longer go to Argus considering the portal has been closed.

    And as for "demons are always being summoned into Azeroth", I'll repeat: the amount of fuel the demon hunters got during the Legion invasion, i.e., when demons were almost literally pouring into Azeroth, they could barely keep the Fel Hammer going.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    We cannot go anywhere outside of Azeroth. As far as I know, the connection to Outland through the Dark Portal was severed when the Iron Horde came through. And we can no longer go to Argus considering the portal has been closed.

    And as for "demons are always being summoned into Azeroth", I'll repeat: the amount of fuel the demon hunters got during the Legion invasion, i.e., when demons were almost literally pouring into Azeroth, they could barely keep the Fel Hammer going.
    Even if it takes a long time or there needs to be concerted efforts to summon lots of demons ourselves actively to fuel the transportation, or to go to other worlds through portals of our own or Demon make to hunt more demons, this doesn't change the motivations for Demon Hunters or would-be Demon Hunters: There are Demons to kill. Does it matter how long it takes as long as the Legion is being stopped? Demon Hunters live by a code to sacrifice everything to save their worlds and their people and their loved ones and to get revenge for the atrocities the Legion commited. I don't think an issue of the Demon Hunters having to wait is going to stop them from doing what needs to be done so that they can be prepared to stop the Legion wherever they can.

  16. #96
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Yeah, they could write whatever they want, but people notice and hate retcons, so that's the least wise route they could take.
    not always, good retcons exist, its not the retcon per se, but how they do it, if they do right? no problem, its not like this is such a big deal in the lore and tweaking will be ny worse than the shit they already did
    I'm not saying they won't, mind you, I'm saying they shouldn't.
    that is completely subjective, why they should not? open the class to new races and expand their lore is something they definitely should do, regardless of the route they take it

    A new DH starting area would just be a good idea for new DH races. They did it with DKs recently to accommodate for the Pandaren and Allied Races when they could have easily left it alone.
    like i said, both routes are acceptable and fine
    People on here would still defend Blizz and say "MAYBE A NIGHTBORNE WENT TO NORTHREND" or "MAYBE A VOID ELF EXISTED BEFORE LEGION, YOU DON'T KNOW" so that's not an issue. And it's not like the new DH starting area would need to be fancy, since the new DK starting area is basically "k, you're dead. Now go."
    those scenarios are different, it always made sense for fel orcs and broken became DH if blizzard wanted, tweak that adding some new lore would not be problem at ll

  17. #97
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    - snip nonsense -
    sometimes i forgot how you just can go wild on something and derail the entire main subject going to something else completely pointless like you life depend on it.

    Again, cutting the bullshit, You said there is no reasons to become a DH, you are wrong on it, you said there is no more enemies to fight for someone become a DH, you re wrong on it and you even try to be a blizzard dev saying no one would want to become a DH, again, you are wrong, this whole thing is you being wrong about this subject.

    Tell me: what exactly, in the underlined text, is "opinion"? Because all I wrote there are facts.
    Its cute that you tried to shift the light on why you where wrong, again, when the premise is false it means shit what you said later

    And you gave, so far, zero reasons other than "I wanna condemn myself to eternal mental and physical torture".
    we already gave plenty of reasons, but of course, you with your dev complex think they are not enough

    Even if someone want to condemn himself, that is literally up to the person doing it, not for you to decide, or you seriously think there is no sociopaths or other crazy characters in the world who would do anything for power? lmao

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans Aurabolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Yeah that's why I said "little-to-no" before. While we learned about Arugal and the worgen in Grizzly Hills being part of the Scourge, there wasn't any specific lore about worgen DKs existing until Cata.

    It totally made sense, just like DHs of any other race. But at least the seed of worgen in the Scourge was planted, unlike Draenei and orcs being trained in Illidan's elite forces.
    To be more specific, Arugal was doing experiments with Worgen on his own in Shadowfang Keep. Arthas found out about his research--after he was killed of course--and personally went to his grave outside SFK to Rez him. Worgen DKs are an end result of Argual being assimilated into the Scourge. Arthas was able to overcome the ferocity of the Worgen curse to bend Worgen DKs to his will.

    Worgen DKs are explained as Gilneans who were part of Arugal's experiments pre-Wrath. Some died in captivity, some died during raids by adventurers and some died trying to escape. The Grizzly Hills questline is the bridge connecting Worgen DKs to already established lore. Not all that different from the two Worgen-related Quest chains in Duskwood actually. They both build off established lore.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    not always, good retcons exist, its not the retcon per se, but how they do it, if they do right? no problem, its not like this is such a big deal in the lore and tweaking will be ny worse than the shit they already did


    that is completely subjective, why they should not? open the class to new races and expand their lore is something they definitely should do, regardless of the route they take it



    like i said, both routes are acceptable and fine


    those scenarios are different, it always made sense for fel orcs and broken became DH if blizzard wanted, tweak that adding some new lore would not be problem at ll
    You're completely misunderstanding me here.

    I'm saying they should add more DH races in the future, but they shouldn't retcon established lore, when they can easily make a new starting zone for updated lore.

    They can easily write that the Illidari need more demon hunters to combat [big evil threat] rather than have the narrative be "they were always there, you just didn't see them but now".

    Are we on the same page now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    To be more specific, Arugal was doing experiments with Worgen on his own in Shadowfang Keep. Arthas found out about his research--after he was killed of course--and personally went to his grave outside SFK to Rez him. Worgen DKs are an end result of Argual being assimilated into the Scourge. Arthas was able to overcome the ferocity of the Worgen curse to bend Worgen DKs to his will.

    Worgen DKs are explained as Gilneans who were part of Arugal's experiments pre-Wrath. Some died in captivity, some died during raids by adventurers and some died trying to escape. The Grizzly Hills questline is the bridge connecting Worgen DKs to already established lore. Not all that different from the two Worgen-related Quest chains in Duskwood actually. They both build off established lore.
    Yup, as I said, I know. But let me make my point more clear, since I didn't before.

    Yes, there was lore to establish the worgen in the Scourge, and Cata did a good job expanding that. We knew the Lich King was trying to get as many forces under the banner of the Scourge as possible, from the playable available DKs, to quests in Northrend, and even WC3. So we agree that worgen DKs make total sense with the lore presented, even if no specific worgen DKs existed in lore before Cata.

    However, we haven't seen or heard of the Illidari training or wanting to train more than elves in the established lore already as demon hunters. We know that races like Broken, Naga, Shivarra, Dreadlords, and even Satyrs were part of the Illidari, serving different functions, but there hasn't been a seed planted for lore for other demon hunters now.

    That said, I think that it's entirely possible, and it would be a cool idea for other races to be demon hunters. It would fit in for Nightborne and Void Elves the best, but races like orcs and even Draenei could work well enough. But, the lore would have to be similar to the current DKs - that these are brand new elite forces to combat the new biggest threat. We haven't seen that in lore so far, unlike the DK lore that existed in WotLK, Cata, and Legion.

    So, I feel the wisest course of action would be for Blizz to start adding pieces of that lore (and having the Illidari more in current lore at all) sooner rather than later. It would make for a more seamless addition, like the worgen DK example you gave, rather than just adding more demon hunters out of nowhere.
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  20. #100
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    sometimes i forgot how you just can go wild on something and derail the entire main subject going to something else completely pointless like you life depend on it.
    So you completely erase the facts I wrote that shoot down your narrative, like when you asserted that "everyone follows Illidan like he was a god" but then I proved how wrong that statement is. Or when I explained how illogical your assertion that the harem in the Black Temple is Illidan's, despite evidence on the contrary.

    Again, cutting the bullshit,
    Translating: "avoiding the facts I have no way to argue against"...

    You said there is no reasons to become a DH, you are wrong on it,
    I'm not. And I've explained why, several times.

    you said there is no more enemies to fight for someone become a DH, you re wrong on it and you even try to be a blizzard dev saying no one would want to become a DH, again, you are wrong, this whole thing is you being wrong about this subject.
    Here's some free advice for you: don't accuse others of "acting like a Blizzard developer" when you're guilty of that exact same thing, multiple times. Glass ceilings, and all that. Anyways. People don't become demon hunters to "protect Azeroth". It's about revenge against the demons who brought them so much misery and pain that condemning themselves to an eternity of mental and physical torture is an acceptable price to pay.

    Its cute that you tried to shift the light on why you where wrong, again, when the premise is false it means shit what you said later
    This is exactly what you wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is your post where the only thing you do is vomit your own opinion as a fact.
    You claimed I was spouting "opinions as fact". And when I called your bluff and challenged you to point out what exactly was "opinion" in what I wrote, you, like a paper tiger, backs off snarling, trying to avoid addressing the fact.

    we already gave plenty of reasons, but of course, you with your dev complex think they are not enough
    None of them valid, because you ignore and sweep under the rug all the cons that come with it:
    Even if someone want to condemn himself, that is literally up to the person doing it, not for you to decide, or you seriously think there is no sociopaths or other crazy characters in the world who would do anything for power? lmao
    Like you just did, there. Do you seriously think that the demon hunters would train sociopaths that are in it just for the power? Considering that demon hunters are not about the power? That's like saying the Church of Light would train into paladin-hood someone with no compassion or faith, and is in it "for the power/prestige"?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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