If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game

[Thestrawman]

It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

Got anymore strawmen you want to knock down?

[Nathanyel]

Only they who pay the most got the right to ask for stuff in the game

If you don't have every shop mount, you shouldn't be able to post on the forums. /s

[Doffen]

If you don't have every shop mount, you shouldn't be able to post on the forums. /s

Damn! I got three though, please let me in!



Oh /s, I am back!

[Gotural]

Even 95% of players going for CE should not be listened to.

Going for CE =! achieving CE.

[LeftyDPS]

There is one way for blizz to try to balance things but it would cause a shit storm.

Turn off covenant abilities for mythic raiding and +10/+15 keys.

All other content uses them freely but the more competitive areas of the game they don't work.

[Ihateamericans]

Imagine unironically calling yourself a raider when you're hardstuck at LFR lol, you casuals are funny

[arkanon]

Yeah guys, if your not getting Collectors Edition, you have no right to ask for anything! you heard her!

- - - Updated - - -

Even 95% of players going for CE should not be listened to.

Going for CE =! achieving CE.

Excuse me, my guild is very seriously going for CE right now - we have almost finished LFR, and then away we go!

[Kaver]

We have. What are you on about?

Exactly. WoW is such a diverse game already. People who say they cater to CE raiders must be insane. 90% of the game is made for casual players and Blizzard keeps adding more and more soloable/pugable content to the game.

[Echo of Soul]

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Minority opinions from Cutting Edge players are just that. Blizzard pays more attention to them than perhaps they should but that's how it works. Bad form to be playing the victim here. You should speak up for what you think is right.

I usually do, and the immediate question you get is what content you do and if your answer isn't clearing mythic raids within a certain timeframe and +25 dungeons you're often dismissed.

I'm in a group that does heroic and a couple of mythic bosses each tier. We do our +10s or +15s depending on what the cap is but often that's not hardcore enough to be allowed to have an opinion.

I'm just wondering why that is. Heck I think even normal raiders or non raiders can have valid input on just about anything even if it doesn't directly align with the way I play the game.

[Uurdz]

It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

This is not restricted to games, but flows into much of life. People are taking sides and fighting against people who in most cases likely could co-exist without any friction. It is both easier, and encouraged, to assume a person you disagree with is a <insert preferred label> than to address their ideas objectively or simply accept their point without devaluing your own.

Say for example the concept of "Earning" something. There are variety of issues you could tackle but lets take for example the older issue of "Earning Purples"
Back during Classic/TBC there were very limited ways in which you could obtain EPIC level gear (purples) outside of doing raiding. As we progressed into WOTLK you were able to obtain purples outside of raids simply by doing Heroic dungeons or by doing a very easy World Boss in the PvP area of Wintergrasp. Players had different views regarding this with some terming the phrase "Welfare EPICs"

You could boil it down to people holding 2 different underlying truths.
Truth A: You devalue my accomplishments if you create easy ways to obtain the same or similar rewards that i've obtained
Truth B: The rewards others get should have no impact on your enjoyment of the game.

Which contradict each other as they cannot both be true. However, they are subjective truths being that each person is going to have their own viewpoint rather than everyone agreeing to it. So then instead of exploring Truth A & B and the merits/detraction from each we instead focus on a specific deployment of it.

i.e. LFR should/shouldn't give our EPICs.

While the Developers seek to find a middle-ground

LFR gives out EPICS that at 15ilvl lower than the Normal Raid.

Regardless of this middle-ground you'll find pages and pages of people arguing until their blue in the face without actually addressing the fundamental differences in poster's Truths. Until you do this, which requires a party to firstly articulate their point accurately and then the 2nd party to read and comprehend that point, you end up going no where and potentially creating a view that there is a lot of animosity or more commonly, that the other poster is an idiot/moron/bigot/elitest/leftist/extremist/cuck or whatever is flavour of the month label to diminish their entire viewpoint because you now classify them with said label thus defeating them as those with that label have no value.

For WoW, given it's so old and had so many changes over the years there are a significant variety of people with very varied opinions. The fact these are not shared well and that there are 3 parties to the debate at minimum (for, against, Blizzard) it often doesn't lead to positive outcomes.

[orsraunia]

you have morons on all level of skill and gameplay

Yep, having raided in a top50 world guild, I can attest to that. You'd expect to find enough elitist morons in such a guild, but no, just a few (like 5-7%). I've found WAY more in other guilds ranked 3000 in world or even way less progressed and not only more elitist morons, but also people who took it to a new whole level. Quite funny actually.

And before someone tries to twists this into something that is not, let me clarify that I am not talking about people who behaved bad to me, but about observing how they were behaving towards random pick ups, etc.

A lot of those were guildies and some of them weren't even above average... It just made them feel good about themselves, I guess. Others feel good when they can help someone improve, not all people are the same. So, it's mostly about the character of one and less about skill level.

[callipygoustp]

If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game

Ask for things? I think you're being a bit soft. If you're not going for CE you shouldn't even be able to play the game.

[Kaver]

I usually do, and the immediate question you get is what content you do and if your answer isn't clearing mythic raids within a certain timeframe and +25 dungeons you're often dismissed.

I'm in a group that does heroic and a couple of mythic bosses each tier. We do our +10s or +15s depending on what the cap is but often that's not hardcore enough to be allowed to have an opinion.

I'm just wondering why that is. Heck I think even normal raiders or non raiders can have valid input on just about anything even if it doesn't directly align with the way I play the game.

It’s because you’re trying to have an opinion of how CE raiders should play the game. Nobody is saying that your opinion doesn’t matter in general but right now there is a lot people who are trying to tell other people how they should play the game even though they are doing completely different content.

It’s the same as when people who don’t do LFR are giving their opinion of what LFR should be. If something doesn’t concern you then your opinion lose value.

[Tarba]

It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

So playing different types of in game content makes you a cutting edge player now ?

Nothing about covenant that people are complaining about is positive to any player. From cutting edge to lfr.
It's just that some people who don't care much about the game are not impacted.

[Gigantique]

If you're good enough for cutting edge, something like covenants shouldn't stop you. If you need to min/max at the expense of your character concept, that sounds like a weakness to me. Blizzard are building the game expecting you to have a concept to your character, if it's not strong or important enough to you to override the power difference of, say, covenants, that's not Blizzard's problem. Provide feedback and/or trust them to balance within a "good enough" threshold or don't play. If your friends demand you min/max to play with them, you need to make better friends...

...Is what I'd say to the people the OP seems to be talking about.

Never been one to let cosmetics win ouy over minmaxing, even thonI do enjoy making my toon stronger. How would your argument work if you remove the DPS aspect? I for example love the concept of thr Hunter Kyrian ability, letting me shoot arrows through walls. But I also like the Night Fae cosmetics, but absolutely find the Night Fae ability boring as hell. Same for shamans, I don't like the Venthyr cosmetics, and the Kyrian back item matches my shaman perfectly, but Vesper Totem is boring as hell to use, while I really like Chain Harvest.

It's not just cosmetics/theme versus power, it's also fighting gameplay feel.

[Ursoc18]

It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

I have trouble understanding what you mean

[holywhiskers]

Most CE players aren't even good. Mmo-c forums are so weird

Covenant rigidity will affect the lower end of players more than higher end. The "meta" for keys trickles down and funnily enough players barely doing their weekly 10s will care more about class/covenant meta than those grinding 15s for fun the first tier.

[Toybox]

People should just try to avoid telling people doing stuff they aren't doing how they should & shouldn't be playing the game. I don't PvP at a gladiator level, so my opinion of high-tier PvP is irrelevant.

Obviously when a system like covenants affects all levels of the game there's a "discussion" to be had there, but they always very quickly devolve into arguments between two sides unwilling to budge or display any sort of empathy for the other point of view. Honestly, I'd rather talk to a wall than argue with another person with zero sense of what it's like to be on the other side.

[Ursoc18]

It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

Are you talking about covenants? Because if so, then your assumption is wrong. Decoupling abilities from the covenants would not affect anyone negatively.

[orsraunia]

Are you talking about covenants? Because if so, then your assumption is wrong. Decoupling abilities from the covenants would not affect anyone negatively.

It would affect those people who want to force upon all a system that is not fun nor working well in practice. Such people do exist. Yeah, I know, go figure...