Less than 2 months until SL. Have you already chosen your Covenant??

[slickwilly]

Once bone spike gets the weiny rogue going to the dumpster. Rogue spots in raid will be extremely limited. They'll be 1 warrior and 1 DH to buff the superior hunters and casters and rogue will be on the sideline as a fluffer.

[Redzonetode]

Once bone spike gets the weiny rogue going to the dumpster. Rogue spots in raid will be extremely limited. They'll be 1 warrior and 1 DH to buff the superior hunters and casters and rogue will be on the sideline as a fluffer.

Do you get enjoyment out of doom posting? This just isn't congruent with reality.

[Coldkil]

Once bone spike gets the weiny rogue going to the dumpster. Rogue spots in raid will be extremely limited. They'll be 1 warrior and 1 DH to buff the superior hunters and casters and rogue will be on the sideline as a fluffer.

Makes no sense at all. There are other skills, and currently rogue is pretty strong due to its toolkit. If it's not SBS, it's gonna be something else.

[Volatilis]

rogue/mage/warlock can feel pretty safe with at least one spec being strong enough to not get side lined. That wouldnt happen anyway, the few times blizz do intervene is when raids start class stacking like rogue stacking in legion for example.

[Lucyx]

Once bone spike gets the weiny rogue going to the dumpster. Rogue spots in raid will be extremely limited. They'll be 1 warrior and 1 DH to buff the superior hunters and casters and rogue will be on the sideline as a fluffer.

Funny because Rogue has been the best melee progression class for the entirety of WoWs history due to it's defensives so Rogue is always the filler melee because you know at least 2 of the dps aren't going to die unless it's a total raid wipe.

[Coldkil]

Funny because Rogue has been the best melee progression class for the entirety of WoWs history due to it's defensives so Rogue is always the filler melee because you know at least 2 of the dps aren't going to die unless it's a total raid wipe.

Basically this. While damage tuning may be not in our favour, Rogues have always been basically reliable in any kind of situation. I don't see Rogues being ditched for raid spots - until we're talking WF race and all that, and it's another story. But in that case, ANY class which is not part of the optimal setup gets ditched, it's not a realistic benchmark.

[Aurosh]

Once bone spike gets the weiny rogue going to the dumpster. Rogue spots in raid will be extremely limited. They'll be 1 warrior and 1 DH to buff the superior hunters and casters and rogue will be on the sideline as a fluffer.

WTF. Rogues were BY FAR the best melee in BFA. There were basically more rogues in highend mythic raiding than all ferals, ww, enhancement shamans, survival hunters, rets and DKs COMBINED. The M+ Meta ALWAYS had rogues as one of three DPS and there was even a time when it was optimal to fill all 3 dps spots with rogues.

And even now in beta rogues are dominating. All estimates suggest that shroud will be necessary for m+ meta so rogue has a safe spot once again in m+ meta. And immunities wil be once again very strong in raids...

And in beta sub is completely overpowered at everything (pvp, raids and m+). So there even have to be huge nerfs in tuning phase....

- - - Updated - - -

Basically this. While damage tuning may be not in our favour, Rogues have always been basically reliable in any kind of situation. I don't see Rogues being ditched for raid spots - until we're talking WF race and all that, and it's another story. But in that case, ANY class which is not part of the optimal setup gets ditched, it's not a realistic benchmark.

Basically rogues damage was always good. There was always one or two rogue specs at the top. The only melee better than rogues dps wise is arms currently because of corruptions etc.

[Coldkil]

Basically rogues damage was always good. There was always one or two rogue specs at the top. The only melee better than rogues dps wise is arms currently because of corruptions etc.

Good-ish. We tend to scale a lot towards the end of the expansion, with some exceptions. Anyway i'd say it's not the raw damage, but the fact we have tools to survive any kind of mechanic or cheese through it thus making us way more reliable than others.

A "dead dps does zero damage" kind of thing.

[CiccioBello]

Currently SerrateBoneSpike is too far ahead of the other covenants not only in terms of numbers but also in terms of mechanics.
Surely the blizz nerf SBS the problem that currently the alternatives are really bad.
On the SUB SBS it is really strong as it fills an aspect where the Sub is a bit lacking that is the cleave damage and as far as I understand, the new raid has many fights where the cleave damage is important.
Slaughter with conduits Slaughter Scar could be a "decent" alternative to SBS especially on SUB and SIN with BLINDSIDE as a talent, moreover in my opinion the soulbind tree of Venthir seems stronger than that of Necrolod.
The problem is that currently Slaughter is a totally ST skill and to work it must necessarily have a conduits otherwise it is useless especially on Sin.
Slaughter and Slaughter Posion could be a viable alternative to SBS if:
1) Replaces Ambush / ShadowStrike
2) it is possible to apply Slaughter Posion with BladeFlurry and ShuirkenStorm, a bit like with FanOfKnives-DeadlyPosion on SIN
3) the damage of both Slaughter and Slaughter Posion base line is higher than an Ambush and deadly posion, perhaps reducing the strength of Slaughter Scar conduits.

Echoing Reprimand in my opinion is the worst of the four covenants, nice idea but in practice it does not fit well in the game of combo points as you often have very little control over the generation of these.
Something like this would certainly have been more useful: "Echoing Reprimand 60% ap generate 3 cp. For the next 9/12 sec the finish moves that consume at least 3cp deal damage as if they consume 7 combo points.

[Narzok]

Currently SerrateBoneSpike is too far ahead of the other covenants not only in terms of numbers but also in terms of mechanics.
Surely the blizz nerf SBS the problem that currently the alternatives are really bad.
On the SUB SBS it is really strong as it fills an aspect where the Sub is a bit lacking that is the cleave damage and as far as I understand, the new raid has many fights where the cleave damage is important.
Slaughter with conduits Slaughter Scar could be a "decent" alternative to SBS especially on SUB and SIN with BLINDSIDE as a talent, moreover in my opinion the soulbind tree of Venthir seems stronger than that of Necrolod.
The problem is that currently Slaughter is a totally ST skill and to work it must necessarily have a conduits otherwise it is useless especially on Sin.
Slaughter and Slaughter Posion could be a viable alternative to SBS if:
1) Replaces Ambush / ShadowStrike
2) it is possible to apply Slaughter Posion with BladeFlurry and ShuirkenStorm, a bit like with FanOfKnives-DeadlyPosion on SIN
3) the damage of both Slaughter and Slaughter Posion base line is higher than an Ambush and deadly posion, perhaps reducing the strength of Slaughter Scar conduits.

Echoing Reprimand in my opinion is the worst of the four covenants, nice idea but in practice it does not fit well in the game of combo points as you often have very little control over the generation of these.
Something like this would certainly have been more useful: "Echoing Reprimand 60% ap generate 3 cp. For the next 9/12 sec the finish moves that consume at least 3cp deal damage as if they consume 7 combo points.

fun idea about the last part: why not turn it around, and make it do equal to 7 cp if 3 or less are used.

[CiccioBello]

fun idea about the last part: why not turn it around, and make it do equal to 7 cp if 3 or less are used.

even so it might make sense ..
The basic idea is that Echoing Reprimand puts you in a damage window every 45 sec where for 9 sec you can spam hard finish moves at low cost.

[Coldkil]

fun idea about the last part: why not turn it around, and make it do equal to 7 cp if 3 or less are used.

This is actually a good idea. Though it would just turn out as "use ER and then finisher of choice/whatever its best used on (likely rupture or SnD due to insane DPE)". Would anyway be impactful on the rotation without being clunky as hell.

[CiccioBello]

Honestly, I really like SBS as a skill and Flashcraft also seems very useful compared to the other Utility skills of covenants as the Rogue itself has good mobility, stealth, decent self-healing and the ability to remove many debuffs via CloakOfShadow so they are tools that the rogue already has.
I hope that before the live version arrives:
- don't nerf too much SBS
- don't nerf too much Sub Rogue, I really like how it was done and that finally after 2 years of total darkness it can be competitive again
- improve the other 3 covenants
- take another look at the talents especially on the SIN
- SliceAndDice fits better on SIN

[Celfydd]

Looks like Venthyr's back on the menu

Unless they make some serious changes to it I can't see how it could ever be attractive for assassination.

[Coldkil]

Ok, as predicted (since skills design was terribad) they're starting to redo them from scratch for some Covenants. Rogues get a new Venthyr one.

Flagellation
Lash the target with Anima 3 times, each dealing (68% of Attack power) Shadow damage, condemning them for 1 min. Each combo point you spend causes an additional lash.
Once the target has been lashed 20 times, reactivating Flagellation will increase your Mastery by 15% for 1 min.

Maybe not the most involving one? But definitely better than before. I like how it's not a cd and how you have to keep track of the stacks that go with your flow. Mastery buff is also pretty good for Sub but with the diminishing return in stat scaling it may lose efficacy over time the more geared we get.

EDIT: i expect an obvious nerf to SBS but not a change in mechanics because it works pretty well as it is. Night Fae will see some tuning but not a complete revamp imho and Kyrian will just be discarded as it is because it just sucks.

[Caerrona]

Ok, as predicted (since skills design was terribad) they're starting to redo them from scratch for some Covenants. Rogues get a new Venthyr one.

Flagellation
Lash the target with Anima 3 times, each dealing (68% of Attack power) Shadow damage, condemning them for 1 min. Each combo point you spend causes an additional lash.
Once the target has been lashed 20 times, reactivating Flagellation will increase your Mastery by 15% for 1 min.

Maybe not the most involving one? But definitely better than before. I like how it's not a cd and how you have to keep track of the stacks that go with your flow. Mastery buff is also pretty good for Sub but with the diminishing return in stat scaling it may lose efficacy over time the more geared we get.

EDIT: i expect an obvious nerf to SBS but not a change in mechanics because it works pretty well as it is. Night Fae will see some tuning but not a complete revamp imho and Kyrian will just be discarded as it is because it just sucks.

Just fyi the mastery % won't dr. Its only rating that drs. Unless that was changed from the post.

Ie if I'm at 30% haste and lust goes out I would be at 60% but if I gain 500 haste rating I would gain 450 (10% dr at that lvl i think.)

[Coldkil]

Just fyi the mastery % won't dr. Its only rating that drs. Unless that was changed from the post.

Ie if I'm at 30% haste and lust goes out I would be at 60% but if I gain 500 haste rating I would gain 450 (10% dr at that lvl i think.)

Not completely sure, but doesn't it work the opposite way? I mean, the % isn't affected, but generally going from 200 to 300 rating is one thing and going from 1000 to 1100 is different (as in the second one is a smaller increase in actual stat %)

At least it's how i got it - ratings won't change, but the amount needed to get 1% of a stat progressively increases the more of a stat you have. Anyway, if i get 15% of anything, it's always be the same (not in actual rating) so it evens out. Depends a lot on stats scaling.

[niztheundead87]

flagellation seems to be bugged on beta for now

[Narzok]

Not completely sure, but doesn't it work the opposite way? I mean, the % isn't affected, but generally going from 200 to 300 rating is one thing and going from 1000 to 1100 is different (as in the second one is a smaller increase in actual stat %)

At least it's how i got it - ratings won't change, but the amount needed to get 1% of a stat progressively increases the more of a stat you have. Anyway, if i get 15% of anything, it's always be the same (not in actual rating) so it evens out. Depends a lot on stats scaling.

i think that is what Caerrona meant, it was just worded poorly.
what i think he means is that:
15% given as % are always 15%
15% given as x haste rating will dr based on current stat values. so [x] haste rating will be equal to [x-dr] haste rating.

[Merlinsback]

Simple question: After everything you've seen and heard on youtube ... do you already know which Covenant you're going to follow with your Rogue??

Complex question: Do you already know what you're going to do ... when the Devs nerf the Covenant you chose??

Super complex question: For PVP.... Serrated Bone Spike or Slaughter?? why??

What's a convenant?