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  1. #41
    I also agree that people who aren't buying Collector's Edition shouldn't ask for things in the game, because the real players actually help Blizzard financially.

    Jokes aside... I kinda agree. Why?

    Because if you're not in the CE, then you seriously shouldn't care about the min-maxing. It won't affect you and even if it does, then what? You are going to finish LFR/normal/HC/Daily Quests/<15 M+ 5-10 seconds faster? Or your class is going to do 5-10% dps less than your friend though you guys have the same gear ilvl?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

    I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

    Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?
    What are you even talking about?
    Are you referring to a specific thing like class changes or just everything in the game?

    Because it does make sense to take the feedback from the most active players that is doing better then the average players in raiding and pvp when it comes to class feedback, why? Because they are far more invested then the player doing world quests and 3 dungeons every week.

    Other then that I dont see blizzard leaning much on CE players for feedback on f.example how the pet battle system is working out. There are alot of different systems in the game in wich CE doesnt mean anything at all. In a raid enviroment however then feedback from CE is absolutely taken more into account then the LFR heroes. And why would we want it any other way then that?

    And I do not have CE, I havent raided semi-h/hardcore since wotlk.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

    I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

    Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?
    I don't get what you're saying. Honestly.

    There is already things designed for different stages.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  4. #44
    I mean, it's not a one-way street, and I'd argue it's more midcores (heroic raiders who kill maybe 2-3 mythic bosses) that like to lord it over others. On the other side of the spectrum, there's also a lot of rage aimed at "the 1%"

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    Yep, having raided in a top50 world guild, I can attest to that. You'd expect to find enough elitist morons in such a guild, but no, just a few (like 5-7%). I've found WAY more in other guilds ranked 3000 in world or even way less progressed and not only more elitist morons, but also people who took it to a new whole level. Quite funny actually.

    And before someone tries to twists this into something that is not, let me clarify that I am not talking about people who behaved bad to me, but about observing how they were behaving towards random pick ups, etc.

    A lot of those were guildies and some of them weren't even above average... It just made them feel good about themselves, I guess. Others feel good when they can help someone improve, not all people are the same. So, it's mostly about the character of one and less about skill level.
    most elitist prick i met was a guild master and raid leader in a guild i played in during wotlk, which was like 3216846534th on realm, and he scolded me for not coming to raid night as i had to study for my school exams... like thank god he had his priorities in order

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by glszino View Post
    Additionally, people who hope that Blizzard will be able to balance their systems are 100% wrong. Blizzard can't even balance a talent row of a single spec, they will definitely not be able to balance all covenant abilities. The game will go live with a clear better covenant for a spec in a certain game mode, players who care about performance will choose it. Blizzard will make a surprised pikachu face and will nerf if with their usual balance incompetence (ala kiss of death legendary for disc priest) and this will piss off lots of players.

    Anyway, Blizzard will not change this system before launch. I am 100% sure that many people who currently defends this system will complain about it once they get to experience it. There is currently nothing fun about this system and the gameplay and there is no reason to have this locking in place based on the lore.
    I feel this really hard.

    Every time some new major feature that impacts gameplay is being developed, it feels like people reset. People who have experienced that balancing cycle (and how it failed, even on a smaller level) many times before will just deny any such failings and continue to insist that people wait until release and to trust in Blizzard.

    Then come expansion release, most of them will lose their shit and complain about how bad the system is and "why didn't anyone say so!?"

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Because if you're not in the CE, then you seriously shouldn't care about the min-maxing. It won't affect you and even if it does, then what? You are going to finish LFR/normal/HC/Daily Quests/<15 M+ 5-10 seconds faster? Or your class is going to do 5-10% dps less than your friend though you guys have the same gear ilvl?
    I am not playing WoW in a hardcore way anymore. I used to be a hardcore PvE player. But, what If I now like both PvE and PvP. Say I mostly PvP, but also enjoy some half relaxed m+ and heroic raiding. If I choose covenant A because it's the best for my spec for PvP, then probably another is best for PvE. So, every time I go into PvE, my fun will be kind of spoiled because I will know that I am not optimal and that I can't play to the best of my ability, because bliz forced me to select 1 ability out of 4 (talking about the class ability), without letting me change between them for different kinds of content. And when that 1% wipe happens, I will know it was because of me and others like me.

    What if you could respec each row of your talents once per 1 week? Would you agree with that? Why is that different? Why would it be bad to let us change between covenant abilities on the fly, like with talents?

    Someone could say "because of lore and RP"... I mean, ok, but that can't be more important than gameplay in a computer MMO. I mean, come on...

    "But we all are the same"... Given enough options and good balancing, not all members of the same class would be the same. This is the way to fix it, not by limiting players, but by giving more valid options... Ofc, this is not the only way to do this, just the smart one. And if they were making smart choices, the game's population wouldn't had declined so much...

    EDIT: And I am 99% sure that this will be changed down the road and they will let people change between class abilities of all covenants or just detach those abilities from the covenants and combine them with their respective soulbind or something. And they will do this because they'll get a lot of shit from a lot of players, when the game goes live and they realize that it's something that affects negatively almost everyone and that it's something that may sound good in theory but is not fun in practice.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-09-14 at 11:38 AM.

  8. #48
    I dont understand why everyone thinks the top players are the ones being catered to, if that was the case then you wouldnt even be able to get into a raid or high mythic, you can pug pretty much the entire game if you get lucky and find competent players.

  9. #49
    I say they should keep Covenants a locked choice! Where would I get my daily dose of 1%er tears if they decided to unlock/decouple it?

  10. #50
    if you are paying for the game, whether by real life money or in game gold, you have a right to ask for things in the game
    Blizzard, as developers, have the right to ignore those requests but have to carefully consider what feedback to listen to or risk alienating their playerbase and losing money

    if you think you have more rights than any other player, for any reason, you're probably a bit of an arse and might benefit from some self reflection

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

    I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

    Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?
    Sorry, who wants to pay extra for some shit that doesn't cost the price they demand for it.. maybe if Blizzard was loyal it'd encourage some of us to be loyal back.. right now you have 3 camps of CE buyers.
    Sheep BAAA.
    Collectors who want everything.
    People with enough cash they don't wanna miss out.

    Nobody who's been paying attention the last few years and isn't a collector is buying CE Blizzard haven't earnt more than lowest amount of money we can possibly pay.. at point they should've played us to keep their game alive.


    You cannot waste design time cratering to a certain type of player they learnt that back in NAXX having 1% of the population base clear their raid, i suspect this is an angry post not understanding the issues going on in some debates and just assuming one side wants freebies rather than having much of a clue though.

    you'd have to point out what your talking about though i can assume.. i wont and you'd have to tell us what you assume people who don't buy CE and complain really think/want because it wont match with reality i assure you.
    Dragonflight Nerfs vs fun again show a Blizzard that hasn't learnt a lesson, Actions speak louder than words afterall watch what they do and do not do.

  12. #52
    Put each class in specific covenant that can NEVER ever be changed until shadowlands is over, remove all this choice, weekly crap quests, whatever.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It has been pretty clear from the discussions going on lately that the high end community render your opinion null and void if you're not part of their Eco system.

    I have a difficult time understanding this. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

    Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?
    The point CE players are making is that it doesn't affect them negatively and the rest positively. It affects us all negatively and it affects us non-CE plebs more negatively than it does for CE players. They will make do. If one covenant is the best, then they'll pick that one covenant. If another gets buffed, they will switch covenants. They will make four different chars for their class if necessary. CE players will do what is necessary to get an advantage.
    It will affect those the most who won't do what is necessary to get an advantage but still want to perform. That's the group of players that gets hit the hardest with covenants and conduit respec cooldowns. People who'd like to push their arena rating but aren't willing to change to the best race and covenant for it. People who are stuck at 1800 rating and try really hard to get better but feel like they are fighting an uphill battle because they chose the wrong covenant for PvP.
    People who want to push M+ keys as high as they can but have chosen their covenant based on raid performance, not M+ performance. People who are struggling to reach +10 keys because they aren't the best players and they know another covenant would make it so much easier because the ability works so well for M+, but they have chosen another covenant for other reasons.
    If you are good and you know what you are doing, then I'm sure the covenant choice won't be that big of an issue for you. But most players are not very good and if they've chosen the weaker power, they will feel like fighting an uphill battle and that's not fun. CE players won't fight that uphill battle.

  14. #54
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    I think when it comes to the covenant abilities, I haven't seen a single compelling argument against why the covenants and abilities shouldn't be decoupled. It would mean hardcore players who do content that requires better performing abilities and talents will have the freedom to choose the covenant they like and the casual players will still have the freedom to pick whatever covenant they were going to pick originally.

    I see a lot of disdain for hardcore players that basically winds down to "Changes should never be made to benefit hardcore players, even if those changes won't negatively impact me."

  15. #55
    It's not even about CE. A lot of CE raiders are way more chill than the internet makes you think. The "correct opinions" are actually spread not by mythic raiders, but by the fringe top 100 famed-slayer people, who like to pretend their opinion is more important than anyone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    I haven't seen a single compelling argument against why the covenants and abilities shouldn't be decoupled.
    There's actually been plenty of arguments as to why that shouldn't happen and why there's meaning in keeping some sort of gating behind switching covenants. You just subjectively decided those arguments are not "compelling", which is fine. You are entitled to your own opinion. Thankfully, Blizzard decided they won't cater to it, but instead keep the covenant system intact. And good for them.
    Last edited by Azerate; 2020-09-14 at 01:21 PM.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    It's not even about CE. A lot of CE raiders are way more chill than the internet makes you think. The "correct opinions" are actually spread not by mythic raiders, but by the fringe top 100 famed-slayer people, who like to pretend their opinion is more important than anyone else's.



    There's actually been plenty of arguments as to why that shouldn't happen and why there's meaning in keeping some sort of gating behind switching covenants. You just subjectively decided those arguments are not "compelling", which is fine. You are entitled to your own opinion. Thankfully, Blizzard decided they won't cater to it, but instead keep the covenant system intact. And good for them.
    Okay what meaning is gained? I'm willing to hear arguments from the other side.

  17. #57
    i went for collectors edition

  18. #58
    came to thread hoping to hear about how people buying the CE should have more of a voice than those that buy the standard edition.... sadly that is not the case.

    I hope blizz removes abilities before they unlock them from convenents... why would you have access to Night fea abilities as a kyrian....
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  19. #59
    I am really glad they don't listen to the hardcore raiding scene as often. Constantly elitism.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    It's not even about CE. A lot of CE raiders are way more chill than the internet makes you think. The "correct opinions" are actually spread not by mythic raiders, but by the fringe top 100 famed-slayer people, who like to pretend their opinion is more important than anyone else's.
    Perhaps that's the case and they're just misrepresenting themselves. Either way the outcome is the same that unless you're cutting edge and m+25 your view of how the game should be is invalid.

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