If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game

[Lolites]

You don't have to pretend it's locked, but you can absolutely still choose to pick the ability that corresponds to your covenant, because you obviously didn't care about the performance aspect to begin with.

yes, but unlocking it WILL CHANGE THE GAME, wheter you want to swap covenants or not, so it will obviously have impact...
i mean personaly i wouldnt mind having different ability (as DK necrolords ability is realy bad), but pretending it will have no impact on people who dont want to minmax (which doesnt mean we dont care about performance btw) if its decoupled is at best ignorant, at worst simply lying...

[jazen]

If anything, Blizz should be catering even more to the casual style player, as they're the ones who pay the subscriptions. If the legit 'CE' folks went away, very little actual money (the one thing we know Blizz cares about) would go away.

[Zyky]

Can't we have some things that are designed for different types of players?

I'm going to try to not sound elitist, but if it comes off that way I apologize.


Short answer is: Sure.


Long answer: The primary issue is that Blizzard half-asses everything they put into the game. Artifacts, Azerite Armor, Essences, Corruption, just to name a few. I would have absolutely no problem with them having things designed for different styles of play, the problem is that every aspect of the game effects every aspect of the game. M+ has a huge effect on Mythic Raiding, World Content has a huge effect on Mythic Raiding(with more recent AP grinds and the upcoming Soul grind).

If they made M+ self-sufficient with say weaker gear than raid gear, with set bonuses that only worked inside of M+ dungeons to make it so there wasn't actually a power difference between Raid Gear vs M+ gear then that would solve that problem. It's similar to the expansions of old, where PvP gear had PvP specific stats to make it better than raid gear for PvPing and PvE players(in most cases) didn't want to be wearing any PvP gear in Raids. But again Blizzard half-asses everything they implement into the game from features to actual content.

That said if every aspect of the game is going to effect the highest level of play, then yes it should be catered to the players doing that content, not to the casual playerbase that only cares about say casual heroic runs once in a while or a friends and family normal run. If all content effects the top content the game is providing, then it should be revolved around that.

Even if the casual playerbase is "larger" it doesn't really matter, they shouldn't be trying to force integration of the communities in the way that they are. There was significantly more meshing of players with different styles of play back in Vanilla(as we're again seeing with Classic). Certain features(like LFR and LFG) ruined the integration between the communities, so without the removal of those(which will never happen) they shouldn't be trying to use any form of power gain to try and make CE Raiders play with casuals, as it just creates hostility in the community.


However without more context on what specifically you're talking about, I can't really delve much more than that.

[Cosmic Janitor]

If you're doing casual content you shouldn't be worrying about abilities at all. You need to relax, pick the covenant you think is pretty and leave the angst about abilities to those of us who actually do the harder content. Who cares if you pick the shit one? WQ certainly don't.

Oh my... Even if I just do some casual m+ runs once a week, I'm still a functioning adult that knows I could be taking 10% less damage all the time and make the life of my group easier or do more dps if my breath lasted longer or help burn down the boss during boss weeks quicker if I had picked the broken venthyr ability on my mage, or..

Not actively raiding doesn't mean you don't do any kind of somewhat challenging content. Not to mention that some abilities are so badly designed, they might be actual dps loses or using them is just not fun because they don't mesh with the rest of your abilities. Why on earth would I want to limit myself here? Just so that I can pretend that I'm special? Sorry, I'm not the kind of person that can delude himself into thinking I'm special because 20% to 90% of people picked another choice and many others feel the same way.

In general I have little respect for anyone that dredges up this myth that only the <stupid made up small number> should care about performance. This is the biggest fucking lie ever. Would many people be better if they actually played the mechanics properly? Sure, but this ain't happenin' any time soon. Does it help if everyone in the raid/party has the equivalent of 7 to 30 ilvks more output simply because they picked the right setup? Oh yes it does. You probably can't teach a slow person to quickly react to fire, but you can make sure that his slow arse will surive another one or two ticks or you get a phase less because their output prevented it for them.

We are definitely not talking about an 0.1% (AKA the ass-pull-number) gain here in many cases and if Blizzard manages to make it that, then all abilities have been nerfed to the point of being useless, given how widely different all of them work.

[robjn]

sad thing is OP has a point. CE and Glad players have the best perspective of balance and fairness, needing to gear multiple characters to completion. Casual players (questers, pet battlers, normal raiders, never more than +5 keysers, below 1600 ratingers) see perceived issues rather than true issues. imo a "trickle down" balance and design ideally works best, not that casual players shouldnt be taken into consideration at all.

[jazen]

If you're going for CE you should be thankful the more casual players paid subscriptions support Blizz

Instead of the typical 'we're elite players' long winded diatribe about how 'casual' players shouldn't demand anything as it doesn't really make a difference, how about instead all the so-called 'elite' players give thanks. After all, it's the subscriptions the more casual players pay that allows Blizz to create the content. It certainly isn't the high-end guilds that sell runs that pay the bills.

[Nnyco]

Cutting edge pet battle, lets go!

[talwynn]

. If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively it's them that should be catered to and the thing should be changed so it affect them positively and the rest of the playerbase negatively.

That's not how Blizz makes money. Filthy casuals are the ones that pay the bills, not the CE people. And if you're chasing CE....deal with it.

[Sevarin]

whats with the multiple threads talking about collectors editions? since you know, thats been what CE has meant for many many years now.


also if youre gonna make a thread in reply to another thread, you should probably read the other thread first.

[Poppincaps]

yes, but unlocking it WILL CHANGE THE GAME, wheter you want to swap covenants or not, so it will obviously have impact...
i mean personaly i wouldnt mind having different ability (as DK necrolords ability is realy bad), but pretending it will have no impact on people who dont want to minmax (which doesnt mean we dont care about performance btw) if its decoupled is at best ignorant, at worst simply lying...

How will it change the game for people who don't want to min max? Isn't the whole point that they prefer fun over performance and thus will still choose whatever ability they find the most fun? Seems to me that maybe if they liked the ability from one covenant but like the aesthetics/story of another, this would benefit them as well?

[exochaft]

I thought they meant “Chaotic Evil”, too many “Dungeons & Dragons”-memes, i guess...

Perhaps that more apt to what the OP is thinking in a funny sort of way, as it's pretty close to the picture being described.

Anyways, I've mentioned it before, and I'll mention it again: many people are fundamentally not understanding what Blizz is trying to do or attempting to do with some changes, and more often than not it's the result of actually listening to the players... the players themselves either have buyer's remorse or don't recognize that they're getting what they asked for.

As an example, Covenants are the direct result of player feedback across the gamut and a feature that people have been asking for... just most players don't realize it or pay attention to how Ion or other blue posts talk about the system. The Covenant system is a subclass/race system that introduces player agency into the game that heavily defines your character on a fundamental level. It is not meant to be a lvl 60 talent row, not meant to be an artifact weapon or Azerite neckpiece, not meant to be something that changes on a whim, etc. Many players are trying to change the Covenant system without understanding what the system is meant to be, which is probably one of the big reasons why there is butting heads in the community.

For some, I don't think it's hard to imagine if Blizz added a truly permanent subclass/race system with extra abilities based upon the subclass, this conversation would be completely different yet completely the same. The discussion concerning the relatively power of abilities would likely be the same... but the conversation about "We should just change our subclass/race freely!" would probably not be as large. Why? Because there's some inherent understanding that the closer the system gets to defining your character, the harder it should be to change that aspect of your character. This is why people aren't generally asking for race changes at the barber shop (yet...) or asking to switch between classes or faction on one character in a rested zone freely.

Now don't get me wrong, Blizz has shot themselves in the foot concerning this kind of game design a LOT over the years, which is why re-introducing something as defining as choosing a Covenant seems so strange and anti-"the way things have been for a while now." While I kind of joked about masses of people asking for race changes at the barber shop, with the direction they've been going with the game I wouldn't be surprised if they did after adding gender swaps to a barber... as frightening as that sounds! Paid services, in this regard, are a bane to this sort of game development philosophy, as it makes permanent choices become trivial and meaningless if you throw money at Blizz. It's kind of ironic that many people dislike these systems without fundamentally understanding why on a broader basis they don't make for a better game.

Circling back to "Blizz only listens to Chaotic Evil- er, Cutting Edge people", that's not really true in the sense that the masses tend agree with CE people (or blindly follow, take your pick). As with the Covenant system, CE people are clamoring for #pulltheripcord... but most players are under a false assumption as to why they're calling for it. To be completely honest, if your a top-end raider that only cares about the world first race, Covenants either don't matter to your skill or you'll just do whatever it takes to win. If you have to make four characters to clear mythic raiding within your time table, you'll do it. The main reason these people are asking for switching covenants on the fly is to save time... that's it.

Most common thing I see beyond the top end is "I want to min/max everything!" Okay, so reroll and make multiple characters if you feel like you need every Covenant. Furthermore, why aren't you race changing every boss? Why aren't you maintaining/gearing different classes for every single fight to min/max your raid? Vast majority of players will not go to such lengths to min/max while claiming they are... so in fact, the argument is more of a complaint that they have to make a hard choice as to how they will tailor their player for what they want to do. They're used to making compromises, whether it's not wanting to have multiple chars to class-swap based upon the fight, not wanting to spend money to change racials or even faction swap, maintain multiple sets of fully-optimized gear for even just one specialization (or even multiple specializations), and so forth. There's a LOT of time and effort that goes into actually min/maxing your character or content, and using that argument is more of an excuse than the actual truth.

The actual truth, more often than not, is that players are greedy and just want free stuff w/o the effort or having to make a choice. It's not some secret that players will take the path of least resistance almost every time when they can to meet their objectives, and this applies to wanting to be able to swap Covenants freely. It's very akin to players enslaving themselves to the meta while complaining the entire time about it and not willing to break free of it, even if it's not viable or could be done better for their own individual/group needs. How often have you heard in raiding "Well, this is the best way to do it because <insert CE guild> did it this way" or "We need this comp because <insert CE guild> did it this way" or some other variant? I've heard it almost my entire time as a raider since vanilla and when I was a top 30-50 mythic raider. It's a very dumb mentality to have, usually the result of people not wanting to make a hard choice that actually requires some thought to either make something your own or find a way to make it work well with what you have. This toxic, self-defeating mentality that people embrace yet despise is the real reason why most people want swappable Covenants.

Anyways, I'm pretty terrible at making short posts recently, so I won't go into debunking or tackling all the other arguments I've heard concerning this. I will say from a min/max standpoint on a personal level, I recognize that there's only so far I will go to min/max for mythic raid (as I don't have the time to go all-out like I used to)... and non-swappable Covenants is actually a small breath of relief as it's one less thing to worry about constantly min/maxing. I also understand what the point of the Covenant system is, and I'll make the hard choice after weighing the benefits and costs, and that's perfectly fine with me.

[Thestrawman]

yes, but unlocking it WILL CHANGE THE GAME, wheter you want to swap covenants or not, so it will obviously have impact...
i mean personaly i wouldnt mind having different ability (as DK necrolords ability is realy bad), but pretending it will have no impact on people who dont want to minmax (which doesnt mean we dont care about performance btw) if its decoupled is at best ignorant, at worst simply lying...

Okay. I'll play this game. What is the impact? What is lost by making the covenant abilities into a talent row? You yourself said you'd like a different ability then the Necrolord ability.

What beyond the fake sense of "meaningful choice" is there to lose by that simple change. Your character will already have used the different covenant abilities while leveling in each zone, so what impact is too important for this change?

[AngerFork]

Okay. I'll play this game. What is the impact? What is lost by making the covenant abilities into a talent row? You yourself said you'd like a different ability then the Necrolord ability.

What beyond the fake sense of "meaningful choice" is there to lose by that simple change. Your character will already have used the different covenant abilities while leveling in each zone, so what impact is too important for this change?

While not directed at me, I do feel it would be a massive hit to the story of the game. It really does not make much of any sense for a DK who is working with the Necrolords covenant to suddenly throw out some Kyrian shackles as a defensive move. It makes no sense for a Druid who is working with the Night Fae to suddenly start using a Venthyr Blood Frenzy ability or a Necrolord swarm ability. Nor does it make any sense for a Paladin who is working with the Kyrians to suddenly be able to fleshcraft.

Additionally, it lessens the impact of that choice of ability. If the abilities are a talent row, then I'm targeting each spell by the specific raid fight. The ability then is not about what I actually want or find fun in my rotation, it's about what does better for my role fighting boss #2 and then changing for boss #3. By keeping the abilities locked to covenants as they are and preventing constant swapping back & forth, I actually have to consider the ability I want for the week rather than just going with the ability that Fatboss told me to have on YouTube.

Some people will mock the choice I make and/or filter groups by certain abilities, but this is just what the player base does. If they aren't filtering by covenant abilities, they'll filter by who can stealth, or who has a higher Raider.IO score they may or may not have purchased, or how high someone's ilevel is. Designing out of fear of what players will exclude from parties is a losing battle as players will always look for another reason to exclude people from groups.

[ashblond]

What is CE?

[Zyky]

Additionally, it lessens the impact of that choice of ability. If the abilities are a talent row, then I'm targeting each spell by the specific raid fight. The ability then is not about what I actually want or find fun in my rotation, it's about what does better for my role fighting boss #2 and then changing for boss #3. By keeping the abilities locked to covenants as they are and preventing constant swapping back & forth, I actually have to consider the ability I want for the week rather than just going with the ability that Fatboss told me to have on YouTube.

So what most people fail to realize is that swapping to a different covenant doesn't actually do anything other than hinder progression with that covenant. The second you swap you get access to both abilities instantly and anything you've already unlocked. By the time the second tier of the expansion releases any player serious about raiding is going to be expected to have grinded out all 4 covenant soulbinds for swapping.

To give a hypothetical, you started the expansion as a Necrolord and finish up their soulbind tree, once progression is done in the first tier, you swap to Kyrian finish up their progression, swap to Night Fae finish it's progression, then swap to Venthyr and finish up their progression. When the second tier comes out you can swap between the 4 covenants pretty much freely and get access immediately to their soulbinds and abilities.

The system is extremely convoluted and half-assed like the majority of systems Blizzard implements. They didn't listen to any player feedback and we ended up with a grind on par to, if not worse than, Artifact Power and Azerite Power. I'd actually argue this is worse than Artifact Power because Artifact Power had 3 weapons(outside of Druid and Demon Hunter) to grind out, meanwhile there are 4 Covenants. It's far too late for them to fix anything, they're going to bandage it for now then make it worse with a different convoluted system in the second major patch.

[Schattenlied]

If something affect them negatively and the rest of the playerbase positively

And what is it that you think is negative for them and the rest of the playerbase positive? Please tell me you're not talking about covenants, because they absolutely do not affect the rest of the playerbase positively as currently implemented...

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Most CE players aren't even good. Mmo-c forums are so weird

Covenant rigidity will affect the lower end of players more than higher end. The "meta" for keys trickles down and funnily enough players barely doing their weekly 10s will care more about class/covenant meta than those grinding 15s for fun the first tier.

this pretty much, CE palyers that are >WR50 are dogshit at the game there is a big diffrence in skill and brain cells between wr <50 and wr 1000 CE, CE is not just CE.
You can get a WR 1000 CE with blue parsed overall raid of ppl playing with 1 hand after the bosses are nerfed 5 times and you have 2x more gear than we WR 1-50 players had pre nerf, its like a different raid.

[Shadowsgrace]

Brb, grabbing some popcorn.

You can have your Pop-corn, I'll grab some Cheese and Wine.

[AngerFork]

So what most people fail to realize is that swapping to a different covenant doesn't actually do anything other than hinder progression with that covenant. The second you swap you get access to both abilities instantly and anything you've already unlocked. By the time the second tier of the expansion releases any player serious about raiding is going to be expected to have grinded out all 4 covenant soulbinds for swapping.

To give a hypothetical, you started the expansion as a Necrolord and finish up their soulbind tree, once progression is done in the first tier, you swap to Kyrian finish up their progression, swap to Night Fae finish it's progression, then swap to Venthyr and finish up their progression. When the second tier comes out you can swap between the 4 covenants pretty much freely and get access immediately to their soulbinds and abilities.

The system is extremely convoluted and half-assed like the majority of systems Blizzard implements. They didn't listen to any player feedback and we ended up with a grind on par to, if not worse than, Artifact Power and Azerite Power. I'd actually argue this is worse than Artifact Power because Artifact Power had 3 weapons(outside of Druid and Demon Hunter) to grind out, meanwhile there are 4 Covenants. It's far too late for them to fix anything, they're going to bandage it for now then make it worse with a different convoluted system in the second major patch.

The first time, yes you get access to both abilities and whatever you've unlocked. But only that first time per covenant as I understand it.

Let me try asking about this by example. If I start as Night Fae then become Venthyr for the first time, I'll immediately have Venthyr abilities/soulbinds and lose my Night Fae ones, though they will remain at their current progress level. If I then want to go back to the Night Fae at some point, my understanding is that I then have to do a 2 week mini-chain before I can truly return. During that two weeks, my understanding is I'll still have Venthyr abilities and the like, but will get the Night Fae abilities back alongside my previous progression when the two weeks is done. Are you saying that simply asking to go back I'll swap to Night Fae abilities/soulbinds immediately?

If I'd have Night Fae abilities during that two week period, then they are essentially hot swappable and I don't see the issue. If I'd have Venthyr abilities, then swapping really isn't going to be a big deal for grinding as there's a 2 week barrier between swaps to consider. I still don't see the issue in that case, at least not why I'd want to grind it out beforehand.

What am I missing here?

[crakerjack]

It's not really cutting edge. It's the players who are pushing for world firsts or r1 gladiator that are most impacted. Outside of that stuff, any combination of spec/covenant can get gladiator and kill every boss on mythic. The limitations only really apply when you're talking about the top 10 raiding guilds and top 10 PvP teams. Outside of that, what covenant you pick is pointless.