Synergy issues!

[Sharnie786]

All mage specs get abilities from other specs but it feels that Arcane is getting the worst end of the bargain.

Arcane will never use frostbolt or fireblast in raids or dungeons. If you want to single target slow you just use slow which costs less mana and lasts longer than a frostbolt. The only place fireblast could be used is to tag a mob that’s about to die in the outside world just to get credit.

However, Fire will spread ignite to it’s capped 8 targets and have Arcane Explosion popping for more AoE damage. They’ll almost never use Flamestrike because the damage on it has historically been bad than even ST ignite spread. Fire could use Frostbolt to slow in m+ to help tanks out on Necrotic weeks on Single Target as well.

Frost will use Arcane Explosion when Blizzard and Frozen Orb are on cooldown as well, Frost Nova, even with 2 charges isn’t worth pressing for damage only utility. I can see them using fireblast for the same reason that Arcane would use it in the outside world.

Why give them the most flavourful and unique Arcane spell that mainly Fire can abuse but give nothing back to Arcane. An equal Arcane spell to give the other 2 specs is Arcane Blast because it is useless to those specs. Either give all 3 useless spells or give all 3 equally useful spells.

There were enough things to know you were playing a mage before all this stripping of uniqueness. Having spells that are useless does not make me feel like I’m playing a mage more than what I felt before the change.

Is it too late to change?

[Stickiler]

All mage specs get abilities from other specs but it feels that Arcane is getting the worst end of the bargain.

Arcane will never use frostbolt or fireblast in raids or dungeons. If you want to single target slow you just use slow which costs less mana and lasts longer than a frostbolt. The only place fireblast could be used is to tag a mob that’s about to die in the outside world just to get credit.

However, Fire will spread ignite to it’s capped 8 targets and have Arcane Explosion popping for more AoE damage. They’ll almost never use Flamestrike because the damage on it has historically been bad than even ST ignite spread. Fire could use Frostbolt to slow in m+ to help tanks out on Necrotic weeks on Single Target as well.

Frost will use Arcane Explosion when Blizzard and Frozen Orb are on cooldown as well, Frost Nova, even with 2 charges isn’t worth pressing for damage only utility. I can see them using fireblast for the same reason that Arcane would use it in the outside world.

Why give them the most flavourful and unique Arcane spell that mainly Fire can abuse but give nothing back to Arcane. An equal Arcane spell to give the other 2 specs is Arcane Blast because it is useless to those specs. Either give all 3 useless spells or give all 3 equally useful spells.

There were enough things to know you were playing a mage before all this stripping of uniqueness. Having spells that are useless does not make me feel like I’m playing a mage more than what I felt before the change.

Is it too late to change?

A fire mage is never going to touch AE, except when farming old content, as while Flamestrike is low damage, it's still a lot higher than AE, especially because it also applies ignite.

Same with a frost mage, they're not going to want to hit AE when they could just fish for procs with Frostbolt, and they can use IL for tagging mobs in the world.


The spells are equally worthless.

[taishar68]

AE has some use across the board; if you’re downing trash and they’re all at low health you’re not going to waste time casting blizzard or fishing for procs, just AE a few times and dead.

Fire Blast had so much more utility in the old days, especially in world content, picking off strays or getting the kill shot before more mobs could be aggroed.

But overall, it’s flavor and not really substantive to your specs gameplay. Which to me doesn’t need to be changed. Adding back the spells is fine for just that, flavor. Not everything has to be done to the Nth degree. Just my $.02.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

This is the end result of people asking for more cross spec things. They are functionally meaningless buttons aside from something that would otherwise fill a hole in a rotation. Arcane Explosion is an interesting exception since it exposes a hole in the other two spec toolkits, in a semi-sustained AoE filler. However, as it maintains Arcane's prohibitive mana cost, it is unlikely that it will be worth using more than a couple times on a pull. But yes, it is a very good spell to have for various reasons.

Aside from Arcane Explosion, there is no real spell that another spec really wants from ye olde core spells. That is sort of the paradox this entire endeavour has been to me. People want cross-spec spells...to do what, exactly? Make me yell at them for hitting Fire Blast on cooldown as Arcane/Frost because "it's a cooldown!!!"?

Again, Arcane Explosion aside, what is it from our kits that's missing that the other two have? Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles are strictly inferior to the other two specs. Ice Lance and Flurry do absolutely nothing for the other two specs, especially without their associated procs. Fire Blast at least is an instant travel tag spell, as you said, but Fireball and Pyroblast are also strictly inferior for the other two specs yet again. You could go Blizzard and Flamestrike, but then you're in the same hole as we originally were - pick the highest DPS one and spam it, you might as well remove the other two. Arcane Explosion's at least semi-limited by cost.

All other spells are/were historically talent-locked. The only potentially useful Fire spell I could see spread around is Dragon's Breath, as a disorient is always useful. Cold Snap is Frost's version of Cauterize and Greater Invisibility's survivabilty, and the rest of Frost's spells don't do anything for the other specs. Scorch was hard removed from Arcane/Frost due to the raw power of casting while moving, and the whole AC/FoF interactions it had to make it not a joke.

This feels like a hollow attempt to fill bars with buttons long removed, or as an expansion class design checkbox to fill relative to other classes. Mirror Image and Alter Time are fantastic spells to return, especially in the incarnation they've come to us in, and have given us some of the most ridiculously strong defensive toolkit we've ever seen in one patch. Then again, I seem to be in the minority. I've seen plenty of people complain that they don't feel like a Mage because they don't have some random spell that was never used outside of spell locks on their bars. If it's just flavour, then sure, whatever.

Is it too late to change?

By more than 6 months, yeah. Would have had to speak up around the time the wards got re-removed. But again, what do you give to the specs to fit that class design checkbox?

[Lodravel]

This feels like a hollow attempt to fill bars with buttons long removed, or as an expansion class design checkbox to fill relative to other classes. Mirror Image and Alter Time are fantastic spells to return, especially in the incarnation they've come to us in, and have given us some of the most ridiculously strong defensive toolkit we've ever seen in one patch. Then again, I seem to be in the minority. I've seen plenty of people complain that they don't feel like a Mage because they don't have some random spell that was never used outside of spell locks on their bars. If it's just flavour, then sure, whatever.

These spells are not just flavour in my spellbook. I assume you never set foot into PvP, because all of them have their use there.

You're not completely out of options anymore when you get locked out of your spell school now, AE is useful for getting out rogues, and frostbolt is especially useful to fire in dueling situations because the lack of a proper slow made kiting quite difficult.

[Lodravel]

It's not just PvP. Lots of things lock you out of a spell school in PvE too.

Fair enough, not that big on PvE myself. The bare minimum this expansion had to suffice, in order to get gear for PvP.

[Doffen]

Only thing they could do is to make another spell than Frostbolt as the "frost representative" for the three specs. Like you say, it's close to useless for Arcane and not worth using a keybinding for, for PvE.

It's the "you think you do, but you don't" thing with the added spells and ability. Why add 10 extra buttons if you are only using 1 of them. Some specs have gotten the better end of the bargain though, and good for them.

Overall it is a hit and miss change. We got Alter Time that I didn't think that I miss, but I did." I think I didn't, but I did!"

[Sharnie786]

Only thing they could do is to make another spell than Frostbolt as the "frost representative" for the three specs. Like you say, it's close to useless for Arcane and not worth using a keybinding for, for PvE.

It's the "you think you do, but you don't" thing with the added spells and ability. Why add 10 extra buttons if you are only using 1 of them. Some specs have gotten the better end of the bargain though, and good for them.

Overall it is a hit and miss change. We got Alter Time that I didn't think that I miss, but I did." I think I didn't, but I did!"

But Alter Time was the reason Displacement is gone . It has a similar function but a way longer cooldown.

And yeah, the added abilities were more like token gestures, like Flametongue for Resto Shamans lol.

- - - Updated - - -

These spells are not just flavour in my spellbook. I assume you never set foot into PvP, because all of them have their use there.

You're not completely out of options anymore when you get locked out of your spell school now, AE is useful for getting out rogues, and frostbolt is especially useful to fire in dueling situations because the lack of a proper slow made kiting quite difficult.

I have set foot and do but not at glad level. Casting something is better than nothing but my point remains, Arcane is worse off because you would only use the other 2 if you're Arcane locked but neither do much dmg.

[Doffen]

But Alter Time was the reason Displacement is gone . It has a similar function but a way longer cooldown.

Damn, did not notice that is gone on the PTR :< Alter Time is just a bit more visual flavor with an extra effect with a longer cd then.

I knew I was right when I first thought "I think I don't, and I am right"

[Aphrel]

All mage specs get abilities from other specs but it feels that Arcane is getting the worst end of the bargain.

Arcane will never use frostbolt or fireblast in raids or dungeons. If you want to single target slow you just use slow which costs less mana and lasts longer than a frostbolt. The only place fireblast could be used is to tag a mob that’s about to die in the outside world just to get credit.

However, Fire will spread ignite to it’s capped 8 targets and have Arcane Explosion popping for more AoE damage. They’ll almost never use Flamestrike because the damage on it has historically been bad than even ST ignite spread. Fire could use Frostbolt to slow in m+ to help tanks out on Necrotic weeks on Single Target as well.

Frost will use Arcane Explosion when Blizzard and Frozen Orb are on cooldown as well, Frost Nova, even with 2 charges isn’t worth pressing for damage only utility. I can see them using fireblast for the same reason that Arcane would use it in the outside world.

Why give them the most flavourful and unique Arcane spell that mainly Fire can abuse but give nothing back to Arcane. An equal Arcane spell to give the other 2 specs is Arcane Blast because it is useless to those specs. Either give all 3 useless spells or give all 3 equally useful spells.

There were enough things to know you were playing a mage before all this stripping of uniqueness. Having spells that are useless does not make me feel like I’m playing a mage more than what I felt before the change.

Is it too late to change?

Yeah its an odd choice of spell to have frostbolt be shared across specs. They shouldve chosen cone of cold instead. And made it do decent damage. We want spells that are actually usefull.

hmm, now that im thinking about it i never even tried fireblasting as arcane or frost, is it still off gcd and castable midcast? If so it has an actual use at least wich is nice, a small dmg increase.

[Trumpcat]

When people asked for more abilities, more spec synergy and to feel like a master mage, rather than a spec, I'm sure nobody meant useless button clutter that will not actually end on buttons.

What was meant instead was a design that incorporates various spells on builds and rotations that are functionally diverse and richer than 2-3 button spam. Give reason to Arcane to use a fire spell or two. Give reason to Frost to use an arcane spell or two.

This did not happen. Specs saw some small adjustments, I would say for the better, but "be a class not a spec" wasn't delivered. This would have required design efforts that were simply not made. It's true for all classes.

Not only we remain as much a single spec as ever in the last few expansions, but we still have useless abilities like Supernova.

Tuning will hopefully improve balance but at this point there is no indication we will see any elegance in design. Maybe the next expansion...

[Cyanu]

not sure what's the complain, it's not like you lost anything to get those minor stuff...

and even for arcane Fire Blast might be fine if you're on the move and everything else is on CD, there's even this thing called PvP