WW monk without energy

[ZerFunk]

What bout WW monks, but with no energy bar, we would scale better with haste, it would also remove the boring part of the rotation i think.

[Razion]

Yeah, I've never liked Energy. Really, I've never liked Energy. On any class.
I know what I need to press next, but the game won't let you - time gating you to the next fun part. Always felt bad. Especially with Hit Combo, part of the fun is going fast so you're constantly moving to the next ability. Having to wait to do this hurts the entire point of your "mastery". It's way more fun at high haste levels, but at low haste levels it's torture.

At least with some specs like Survival and Focus you have things like Kill Command to give lots of Focus back, especially with Pheromone Bomb giving you lots of return on your entire bar while still giving you things to press and do. Meanwhile on Monk you kind of just sit there in Fists of Fury not pressing anything, maybe using that Chi-flavor ability for one press, and you're back to not pressing anything at those low haste levels.

Especially at low haste levels, you can feel pressured into not taking the fun and more complicated and nuanced talent builds that have a lot more active buttons to keep track of and use optimally, because you need to take the talents that will give you more passive resource regen so your spec doesn't just slow to a crawl once you run out of those active buttons.

It's such a consistent feeling in a lot of specs and classes that with low gear you can't take the fun more button builds until you actually have the gear to support them just so you're not falling asleep and it sucks.

[Beingbob]

No. I love energy, and I hate it when we get GCD-locked sometimes due to the resource overload burrowed powers tend to give us at times (in Legion and BfA). Having another resource to manage (even if it's just don't let it cap) is an extra level of complexity that makes the spec more interesting, and it is important for there to be some slower paced, considerate melee specs that don't require spamming in the same way fury warrior, havoc etc have to. Lots of players including myself get carpal tunnel from playing fury in particular, and without energy WW monk would be just as spammy due to the lower than normal GCD.

[ZerFunk]

you would still have "downtime", by that i mean the cast times of fists of fury, spinning kick and serpent kick, also the rotation would still be centered around the same things, getting the cd's in line for a big burst, energy doesnt change that, just makes you wait in between casts, it locks the amount of gcd's you can press in a fight.

Energy makes more sense in rogue, where you are supposed to transform energy into burst damage, but as WW monk you need cd's to burst, not energy

[Yemkela]

But energy is what gives the spec its rhythm. It'd be boring to press buttons at the same exact speed always, energy changes up the pace a little

[ZerFunk]

But energy is what gives the spec its rhythm. It'd be boring to press buttons at the same exact speed always, energy changes up the pace a little

At the middle-to-end of every expansion, that "rhythm" (which is just wasted time between cgds) dissappears cos of haste, it has been like that forever.

[Tradu]

So you think by removing something that scales with haste, you'd make WW scale better with haste?

- - - Updated - - -

At the middle-to-end of every expansion, that "rhythm" (which is just wasted time between cgds) dissappears cos of haste, it has been like that forever.

Generally not because of haste, it's basically always external resource generators like set bonuses or azerite. I agree it's a problem, I just think the solution is going the other direction: actually making energy(resources in general) matter. You should be limited in what you can press because of energy, and the skill expression should come from spending your limited resources in the best way possible.

[ZerFunk]

So you think by removing something that scales with haste, you'd make WW scale better with haste?

- - - Updated - - -



Generally not because of haste, it's basically always external resource generators like set bonuses or azerite. I agree it's a problem, I just think the solution is going the other direction: actually making energy(resources in general) matter. You should be limited in what you can press because of energy, and the skill expression should come from spending your limited resources in the best way possible.

yeah you should be limited, but ww monks are wierd, cos we depend on 3 things: cooldowns, energy and chi, 3 is too many, we have walls on all sides, thats why we scale so badly, removing one would make them way more flexible

[Tradu]

yeah you should be limited, but ww monks are wierd, cos we depend on 3 things: cooldowns, energy and chi, 3 is too many, we have walls on all sides, thats why we scale so badly, removing one would make them way more flexible

No, it's not. You're specifically removing something that scales with haste, doing that makes haste worse. A big reason for WW's poor scaling is that the baseline is weak, so even adding the same multipliers as other specs the result will be smaller. The ways you fix scaling are by increasing the baseline and/or adding hooks to specific stats(or in the case of mastery literally just increase how much you get per point). Make crits generate resources or do more extra damage. Give RSK a chance equal to your haste% to reset its CD. That's how you increase scaling, not by removing things that already scale with stats.

[ZerFunk]

No, it's not. You're specifically removing something that scales with haste, doing that makes haste worse. A big reason for WW's poor scaling is that the baseline is weak, so even adding the same multipliers as other specs the result will be smaller. The ways you fix scaling are by increasing the baseline and/or adding hooks to specific stats(or in the case of mastery literally just increase how much you get per point). Make crits generate resources or do more extra damage. Give RSK a chance equal to your haste% to reset its CD. That's how you increase scaling, not by removing things that already scale with stats.

we are gonna need someone with better maths for that, im pretty sure those "reset cds" are patches for the problem that the 3 walls create.

[shade3891]

If i could change the spec to play without energy i would like something like this:
I should have no downtime playing it as TP and BoK are always available and still value haste due lightning strikes.

Mastery: Combo Strikes
Your abilities deal 10% more damage when they are not a repeat of the previous ability and reduce the cooldown of your chi spending abilities by 0.6 sec.

Lightning strikes (new passive)
Your chi spending abilities have a 15% chance to strike your target 2 additional times. This chance is increased by double the amount of your total haste value.

---

Tiger Palm
0 sec cd
Instantly strike your target dealing low damage and always generate 1 chi.

Blackout Kick
0 sec cd
Instantly kick your target dealing moderate damage and generate 2 chi if not a repeat of the previous ability.

Spinning Crane Kick
7 sec cd *
Instantly kick up to 8 targets dealing moderate damage and generate 2 chi if not a repeat of the previous ability.

---

Rising Sun Kick
9 sec cd | -3 chi
Instantly kick your target dealing heavy damage.

Fists of Fury
20 sec cd | -3 chi (3 sec channeled ability)
Your hit up to 8 targets, dealing heavy damage to all targets in front of you.

Whirling Dragon Punch (baseline)
0 sec cd **
Instantly punch your target dealing heavy damage and moderate AoE damage to all targets around you.


* Cooldown reduced for each target hit.
** Only usable while both Fists of Fury and Rising Sun Kick are on cooldown.

[Wuusah]

What if they baked in WW mastery into the spec so that you literally cannot press the same skills twice in a row. So if you use Tiger Palm it gets grayed out and you have to use something else.

That would open up mastery to be something else

[dileria]

To quote you on another topic @ZerFunk:
"Whats exactly the problem you are trying to fix?"
and
"not all specs can be top tier"
:P
Sarcasm aside. I do agree with you that sth has to change with the windwalker spec.

Removing Haste - your idea first:
I think removing haste will lead into a playstyle similar to demon hunter.
Mash as many builders as you can (since builders have no cooldown) to use as many spenders as you can. (->abc, always be casting)
If you add a cooldown to your builder its a playstyle similar to ret pala.
In the current ww case this means:
Use tigerpalm on gcd, while spending the chi on bok / rsk / fof / wdp / sck while maintaining the mastery as much as possible.

Having energy as a resource means that the class has downtime, while waiting for the energy bar to refill.
Having cooldowns on builders also means that the class has downtime, while waiting for the abilities to recharge.
Having no cooldowns on builders and no energy means the class has no downtime -> demon hunter

All playstyles work with the right tuning but are different.
In think the methodical feel of the windwalker mastery doesnt fit into a abc-playstyle, but that is my personal opinion.

The scaling issue:
The scaling issue isnt based on us having energy as a resource, but on 2 different reasons
a) many spells dont interact with some secondary stats at all
b) unability to spend excess resources

a) many spells dont interact with some secondary stats at all
Superior scaling: secondary stats have some form of extra interaction
example = BoK reduces the Cooldown of FoF and Rsk by 1sec -> improved Haste scaling

normal scaling: secondary stats have no extra interactions
generally speaking +1% crit => ~+1% more dmg

Inferior scaling: secondary stats have no interaction at all -
example = fist of the white tiger, the cooldown isnt affected by haste, and the dmg isnt either -> zero haste scaling on that spell
-> overall worse haste scaling for the spec
Windwalker have several spells like that... touch of karma, chiwave/burst...

Every secondary stat should affect EVERY offensive ability in some way to have at least normal scaling.

b) unability to spend excess resources
We have only tiger palm to spend energy. But because our mastery doesnt allow several tigerpalms back to back.
Every tiger palm is followed by a non energy spending ability. We are hindered in spending our excess energy.

Once RSK and FoF are on cooldown we only have BoK for spending chi. Again our mastery hinders us from using several bok back to back to spend excess chi.
->
The interaction of BoK, TigerPalm and the Mastery is holding the windwalker back to spend excess rescources.

My suggested solution:
Keep it simple, since beta has already begun.

a)
If some spell has no stat interaction -> "DMG is further increased by your stat."
(Chaos Bolt always crits -> solution: Damage is further increased by your critical strike chance)

b) (based on a Peak of Serenity comment)
Blackout Kick Combo:
Blackout Kick can be used back to back with increasing chi cost up to a maximum of 3 chi. Using a different (mastery affecting) ability resets the BoK Combo.
(1st BoK 1Chi/1Dmg-> 2nd BoK 2Chi/2Dmg -> 3rd BoK 3Chi/3Dmg -> Tiger Palm -> 1st BoK)

My addition to that:
Blackout Kick! has a 8% chance when you tiger palm to increase the dmg of the next blackout kick, as if one additional chi is spend. Stacks up to two times.
(Blackout Kick! procs -> next Blackoutkick cost 1 Chi but does 2*Dmg.)

It simplifies the rotation, by having the option to reset excess chi in a fast way.
Additionaly, procs don't mess up the flow of our rotation/mastery.

c)
Let def cooldowns be def cooldowns. Stop fking around with degenerate touch of karma gameplay to do decent damage.
Peak of Serenity also has some good solutions for that.

[Sangris]

I miss the days of SoO, where you had so much haste your rotation was basically a race against your energy bar, where you would easily hit your energy cap if you were too slow. That would bring the feeling of those days back.

[Gurg]

...Give RSK a chance equal to your haste% to reset its CD...

And thats why i love Windwalkers Xuens Battlegear Legendary!
I really hope that it will stay unchanged. Tho looking like a solid pick, since its crit dependent, it looks like its power will start to go up as our stats increase.

Tho Pressure Release kinda feels like a mandatory pick for Mythic+ early on where biggest obstacle is burning pack of mobs until our stats start to go up to decent levels of Crit.

Rushing Tiger Palm is also a good one early on for Single Target fights.

If (when) we get the chance to equip two legendaries (like in legion) i guess that Rushing Tiger Palm nature will boost Battlegear even more.

[FuujCraft]

That should have been a thing...

[Babylonius]

That should have been a thing...

I played it in the beta for the few weeks it was available, it was not great. It was like Balance Druid's Sun/Moon phase thing but worse.

[ZerFunk]

I played it in the beta for the few weeks it was available, it was not great. It was like Balance Druid's Sun/Moon phase thing but worse.

hey bab, would love your input about the thread, also never got the chance to thank you for peakofserenity dude!

[Samuraijake777]

I kinda like that idea, would probably require some rebalancing but that's not impossible

[Babylonius]

hey bab, would love your input about the thread, also never got the chance to thank you for peakofserenity dude!

Generally the part that people consider boring is the part that I enjoy the most. Removing energy would make the spec less thoughtful and more spammy, which I don't like.